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They're a bunch of furries though and I'd rather choose something else besides Counter Attack/Acute Senses as a Chapter Tactic.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're a bunch of furries though and I'd rather choose something else besides Counter Attack/Acute Senses as a Chapter Tactic.

BT Crusaders do a pretty good job.

Would also be good as Zerkers...

Ffs, GW.

Experiment 626 wrote:
The point is, our Cabal has to pay an additional tax, "because Chaos hurhurhur!"
And the formation benefits are still a mile behind what Loyalists get.

Moving the goalposts, huh?

You said nothing about the Cabal having to pay for VOTLW, your entire post was predicated upon the fact that it was a Black Legion formation only available to the Black Legion as an army.

For well over 10 years now, every single time Chaos Marines get new rules, they've reeked entirely of always being 'Marines -10'.

Yes, that's why KDK was considered such a crummy book and was totally not dismissed by CSM players because it was just Khorne.

CSM's have been the punching bag ever since 2007, with a model that's now in even worse shape than bloody Sisters! (at least they have/had a complete model line... ours is still 50% missing.)

Try playing Guard. Punching bag since forever, and book that makes CSM look good. The only saving grace about Guard is "Well at least you can use IoM allies".

IG are a mid-low tier army nowadays, but can't even compare with CSM in terms of uselessness. They're my two armies, I know what I'm talking about.

By the way Khorne Daemonkin is a codex on its own right, so "but CSM got KDK" is as good an argument as saying "but IG got Mechanicum".

Also, KDK, while above CSM in terms of power, is quite a monobuild codex and the less marines you take, the stronger the list. Quite telling if you ask me.

Between my IG and CSM... IG, with them I win 60%... CSM I only win when I play against another CSM army.

KDK is the best thing to happen CSM in a long time... that's how sad of a state CSM are in.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Yes, god forbid that Chaos gets anything that Loyalists can't have...

To be fair, CSM get to take Autocannons in their squads. That, right there, is a massive edge for Chaos.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Yes, god forbid that Chaos gets anything that Loyalists can't have...

To be fair, CSM get to take Autocannons in their squads. That, right there, is a massive edge for Chaos.

Oh, cool. And the model for that is-

Oh wait.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Yes, god forbid that Chaos gets anything that Loyalists can't have...

To be fair, CSM get to take Autocannons in their squads. That, right there, is a massive edge for Chaos.

Not really. It's one gun that's fairly decent at popping light or medium vehicles and some elite troops.
Space marines get assault cannons, grav weapons, interchangeable sternguard ammo, a wider variety of dreadnoughts, a wider variety of landraiders, and I could go on. And that's just in the vanilla codex.


Or were you being sarcastic? Honestly when it comes to CSM on this site, I don't even know anymore.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:
We do when it comes out at the same time as two releases for CSM, both of which are rubbish. Further proving that this neglect is intentional.

Two supplemental releases for CSM, while CSM players still pretend that Daemons didn't just get a huge buff and Khorne Daemonkin aren't a thing.

Yeah yeah yeah, I know "Daemons aren't CSM!" but considering I get constantly told to "just use allies" for my Guard or Skitarii? Get over it and use allies.

KDK is NOT CSM in fact most KDK have little to no CSM you mite as well call SW the same as DA
the later two share more in common then the first two.

The chaos powers are bad I play the 1st power I call the power of suckyness the only good power is doombolt.
SM got 4 new set of powers that all have good powers and you don't have the chaos primis tax

The new daemon rules don't help me at all other then for fateweaver getting new powers.
Taking 9 units is to high a tax to be useful as flamers suck and EF are non mobile EZ kill points
The other formation makes it even more likely to give the opponent FNP after all buffing them is chaos right

I truly think chaos needs to be split up into at lest 5 codexs . One per God and one for non devoted CSM.
CSM to me had 2 good codexs 3 and 3.5 though I liked 3 more
But as it is now I am done playing CSM I will play SM or Tau

Oldmike wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:
We do when it comes out at the same time as two releases for CSM, both of which are rubbish. Further proving that this neglect is intentional.

Two supplemental releases for CSM, while CSM players still pretend that Daemons didn't just get a huge buff and Khorne Daemonkin aren't a thing.

Yeah yeah yeah, I know "Daemons aren't CSM!" but considering I get constantly told to "just use allies" for my Guard or Skitarii? Get over it and use allies.

KDK is NOT CSM in fact most KDK have little to no CSM you mite as well call SW the same as DA
the later two share more in common then the first two.

Like calling every non-CSM Space Marine a "Loyalist"?

From where I'm sitting, Blood Angels and Black Templars aren't exactly doing great at the moment either, but since we can ally with someone else we're apparently amazing. If we start allying in other Marines we run into the same existential question as CSM when allying in Daemons: why am I playing this army when I could just play allied army X and have a stronger army?

There's a case to be made for SM models being better (although Templars have to pay a "chainsword tax" if we want to build Crusader Squads), but can we please stop pretending that "Loyalists" is somehow an accurate label that captures the situation perfectly. I promise that the valid points about CSM (and they, much like CSM themselves, are legion) won't go away just because we pause to think and drop the hyperbole a bit.

I suppose the hatred for "Loyalists" would make sense from a fluff point of view though...

To be perfectly fair...

Almost every KDK army I see is mostly Daemons with some trimmings from the CSM components to make the most of the stacking Mark/Daemon of rules.

Like, seriously.

KDK is not CSM.

KDK is just a better way to run a Khornate themed Daemon army

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Oldmike wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:
We do when it comes out at the same time as two releases for CSM, both of which are rubbish. Further proving that this neglect is intentional.

Two supplemental releases for CSM, while CSM players still pretend that Daemons didn't just get a huge buff and Khorne Daemonkin aren't a thing.

Yeah yeah yeah, I know "Daemons aren't CSM!" but considering I get constantly told to "just use allies" for my Guard or Skitarii? Get over it and use allies.

KDK is NOT CSM in fact most KDK have little to no CSM you mite as well call SW the same as DA
the later two share more in common then the first two.

Like calling every non-CSM Space Marine a "Loyalist"?

From where I'm sitting, Blood Angels and Black Templars aren't exactly doing great at the moment either, but since we can ally with someone else we're apparently amazing. If we start allying in other Marines we run into the same existential question as CSM when allying in Daemons: why am I playing this army when I could just play allied army X and have a stronger army?

There's a case to be made for SM models being better (although Templars have to pay a "chainsword tax" if we want to build Crusader Squads), but can we please stop pretending that "Loyalists" is somehow an accurate label that captures the situation perfectly. I promise that the valid points about CSM (and they, much like CSM themselves, are legion) won't go away just because we pause to think and drop the hyperbole a bit.

I suppose the hatred for "Loyalists" would make sense from a fluff point of view though...

Excuse me, but as a BT player, I can say that BT are pretty damn good rn. Excellently, in fact, when compared to most non-C:SM armies.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
To be perfectly fair...

Almost every KDK army I see is mostly Daemons with some trimmings from the CSM components to make the most of the stacking Mark/Daemon of rules.

Like, seriously.

KDK is not CSM.

KDK is just a better way to run a Khornate themed Daemon army

Nonsense! Any army that includes a Chaos Lord, a minimum sized unit or two of Possessed, and 2-4 units of 3 Bikers is so obviously just another CSM clone army!


And in all seriousness, let's not kid ourselves that Khornekin is any kind of brilliantly designed book... It only stands up because of the Blood Tithe rules, the extremely cheap Core formation, and that the book managed to make the already outstanding Flesh Hounds even better.

You may as well just call it Codex: Gorepack & Friends, since that's all you really ever see from it. (and the occasional Be'lakor to cast Invis on the D.Thirster.)

 fallinq wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Yes, god forbid that Chaos gets anything that Loyalists can't have...

To be fair, CSM get to take Autocannons in their squads. That, right there, is a massive edge for Chaos.

Not really. It's one gun that's fairly decent at popping light or medium vehicles and some elite troops.
Space marines get assault cannons, grav weapons, interchangeable sternguard ammo, a wider variety of dreadnoughts, a wider variety of landraiders, and I could go on. And that's just in the vanilla codex.

Or were you being sarcastic?

Those Autocannon are game-breaking OP. It's so unfair, that most CSM players sideline them so they still have some challenge when they play.

No, not sarcastic at all. Totally serious. Like a heart attack.

And how about that bolt pistol + ccw option they have? Tacticals don't even get it, because it's silly unfair to get 2 cc attacks in assault.

 Selym wrote:
And how about that bolt pistol + ccw option they have? Tacticals don't even get it, because it's silly unfair to get 2 cc attacks in assault.

Dude, so OP. In most Codices, only HQs have that option.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And how about that bolt pistol + ccw option they have? Tacticals don't even get it, because it's silly unfair to get 2 cc attacks in assault.

Dude, so OP. In most Codices, only HQs have that option.

I can't tell you how glad I am that Chapter Tactics: Carcharadons absolutely does not give you the same option except 1pt cheaper and also with ATSKNF, Fear and Rage.

Mozzamanx wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And how about that bolt pistol + ccw option they have? Tacticals don't even get it, because it's silly unfair to get 2 cc attacks in assault.

Dude, so OP. In most Codices, only HQs have that option.

I can't tell you how glad I am that Chapter Tactics: Carcharadons absolutely does not give you the same option except 1pt cheaper and also with ATSKNF, Fear and Rage.

That's Imperial design philosophy though: take whatever toys Chaos has, but make them cheaper & much better.
I honestly can't wait for the next Vanilla Marine codex, just so we can see how GW will take our daemon engines and make 10x versions that the Loyalists just suddenly "found" in that dark corner of the Chapter Armoury.

On the other hand, Chaos design philosophy is entirely based on the principle of making Chaos Marines different from loyalists by simply removing every single special rule that expensive, elite infantry rely on to function at the most basic level.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And how about that bolt pistol + ccw option they have? Tacticals don't even get it, because it's silly unfair to get 2 cc attacks in assault.

Dude, so OP. In most Codices, only HQs have that option.

I can't tell you how glad I am that Chapter Tactics: Carcharadons absolutely does not give you the same option except 1pt cheaper and also with ATSKNF, Fear and Rage.

That's Imperial design philosophy though: take whatever toys Chaos has, but make them cheaper & much better.
I honestly can't wait for the next Vanilla Marine codex, just so we can see how GW will take our daemon engines and make 10x versions that the Loyalists just suddenly "found" in that dark corner of the Chapter Armoury.

On the other hand, Chaos design philosophy is entirely based on the principle of making Chaos Marines different from loyalists by simply removing every single special rule that expensive, elite infantry rely on to function at the most basic level.

Shame they don't get the two special weapons and I have to use that stupid Combat Squad rule.
Otherwise, bang for buck, Carcharodon Tacticals are actually almost worth running.

The problem now is that will be hard for chaos be close (or even on the same dimension haha) to SM just because formations and the new powers.

Even if the codex changes, the rules of a formation like the librarian one will remain.

No mention the new powers. how they are from a supplement, no matter the codex, the SP will have those powers forever.



Aaaaand the new powers are an insult to players. They not just are OP... some directly fethed any daemon army focused on powers.
And others directly break the game balance since "erase" the strategy component. I mean, things like move 18' any unit (and the actions the unit can do after that extra movement), change an unit for other, increase the BL of a vehicle to get bl15 land raiders or 14bl IK (also raise the T on non vehicles), moves a terrain and the units on it......


omg, GW was crazy



And of course this was specially terrible after the new chaos and orks books......is like a bad joke

Experiment 626 wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Selym wrote:
And how about that bolt pistol + ccw option they have? Tacticals don't even get it, because it's silly unfair to get 2 cc attacks in assault.

Dude, so OP. In most Codices, only HQs have that option.

I can't tell you how glad I am that Chapter Tactics: Carcharadons absolutely does not give you the same option except 1pt cheaper and also with ATSKNF, Fear and Rage.

That's Imperial design philosophy though: take whatever toys Chaos has, but make them cheaper & much better.
I honestly can't wait for the next Vanilla Marine codex, just so we can see how GW will take our daemon engines and make 10x versions that the Loyalists just suddenly "found" in that dark corner of the Chapter Armoury.

On the other hand, Chaos design philosophy is entirely based on the principle of making Chaos Marines different from loyalists by simply removing every single special rule that expensive, elite infantry rely on to function at the most basic level.

What I am most impressed by is the upgrade/equipment shenanigans that took place.

3.5 book - Chaos Lords could get things like 2+ saves, 4+ invulns, master crafted weapons, additional attacks and so on and so forth. We have a very big list of options for our characters which was promptly taken from us....

And later reprinted in the 4th ed SM book and has stuck with them ever since.

So in order to get a reroll, an additional attack, a 2+ armour save or one or two other things that Loyalists get for free from Chapter Tactics or can get from their wargear....

We have to spend points on mutations. And randomly roll for them. Because Chaos, eh?

Don't worry, ot's balanced because you are a filthy heretic and how dare you try to win against ULTRAMARINES, your spiritual lieges.

I worry about any CSM changes just looking at the new renegade knight detachment as its only command benefit somehow gets shared by loyalists as well!? It's like the designers really think of chaos marines as npcs who cannot be be buffed above imperial armies and they always need some silly built in weakness.

Except the directly comparable detachment for loyalists (The Oathsworn Detachment, aka 1-3 mnights just like the chaos knight detachment) Has no bonuses at all, so it's not that unusual that the renegade knight detachment doesnt either. To add to this, the renegade knight has the option for two of the same guns, which is amazing.

 buddha wrote:
I worry about any CSM changes just looking at the new renegade knight detachment as its only command benefit somehow gets shared by loyalists as well!? It's like the designers really think of chaos marines as npcs who cannot be be buffed above imperial armies and they always need some silly built in weakness.

I think it's more that GW are simply genuinely afraid to make Chaos play on an equal level to Loyalists...

We saw how well that worked out during the 3.5ed days. Yes, certain things about that codex were heinously OP, namely Iron Warriors & the Sirenbomb/Daemonbombing in general.
We couldn't go for barely a day without hearing about how Chaos were the end-all-be-all that was ruining 40k forever, despite the fact that Eldar (and Craftworlds especially so) were the ultimate pants-on-head OP gak you could get your hands on.

Heck, just look at the giant gakfest we endured during the first 12-18months of "Codex: Heldrake". Didn't matter that the Turkeys were literally the one and only decently powerful unit in the entire book, (though the FAQ was entirely not needed and just served to ensure the hate would continue), Loyalist players whined incessantly about how Chaos was this OP force that couldn't be dealt with, because 2-3 'Drakes were auto-win.
I don't even want to get into the apocalyptic rage-fest that went down when Summoning became possible... Jesus, the forums lit up for almost a month with claims that the game was beyond salvagable, and Daemons/Chaos were auto-win unless Summoning was banned and/or a hugely punishing WC limit was put in place.

GW's problem is that;
1. They believe that Chaos has to be vastly different from their loyalist counterparts in order to not simply be viewed as a direct clone of 'Marines but with spikes!'.
Unfortunately, the game itself doesn't support this at all. Chaos Marines are still Marines, no matter how much people try and claim otherwise. Chaos needs to have similar rules in place that loyalists do, as otherwise, an army of expensive, elite infantry just won't be able to function at the most basic level.

One only has to look at the glaring clusterfeth that is the Chaos Land Raider. Taking away the Infernal Device rule has simply doomed it to the point that it's not playable, because the core rules don't support the viability of a vehicle that's both main battle tank with wildly different weapons + heavy transport.
And this holds true across the entirety of the Chaos Marine army. Expensive elite infantry who have 0 synergies or special rules, unless they spend a crippling amount of even more pts, just to get abilities that are close to what Loyalists get baked into their base cost.


2. GW is afraid of another backlash.
We all know what happened with the Eye of Terror campaign. And GW doesn't want go through another ***** fest from their largest player base. If they make Chaos capable of routinely beating Marines, then Marine players will naturally whine.

Just look at how badly the gutted our options...
Dark Blades for example were considered far too powerful - a +2S power weapon that ignored all armour saves? Can't have that!
Mutations you could choose, Kai Guns, Daemon Princes that were actually scary, the ability to buy expensive characters 2+ saves, cheap 4+ invulns for specialised close combat characters, etc...
Instead, Loyalists got everything under the sun, and Chaos instead can only get similar effects by winning challenges and getting extremely lucky on random rolls. And worst of all, the supposed "super reward" from that chart, instead is actually the very last thing that any Chaos player wants to roll, since you trade out an effective character for a hugely awful naked Daemon Prince.


3. GW doesn't know what to do with the faction.
Is the codex supposed to focused on the Heresy Era veterans? What about recently turned Renegade Chapters? Oh, and let's not forget about those Dark Mechanicus guys & Chaos Cults either!
So instead of a focused theme, we have stupidity such as Heresy Veterans who are actually worse than present day Loyalist Marines, and recently turned Renegades who hilariously insist on dumping all of their modern tech at the Cadian Gate before exiting into the Eye to become Chaos Marines!
And those Dark Mechanicum guys who have thrown off the shackles of the Priesthood's rigid rules, are instead apparently the least adept guys in the entire galaxy at coming up with new things.

In all honest chaos shouldn't have grav weaponry and stuff. You guys are good where you're at. I mean look at helldrakes.. I wish I had something similar in my eldar forces. Super jelly

Experiment 626 wrote:
I don't even want to get into the apocalyptic rage-fest that went down when _______ became possible... Jesus, the forums lit up for almost a month with claims that the game was beyond salvagable, and ______ were auto-win unless ______ was banned and/or a hugely punishing _____ limit was put in place.

Ooh! It's Dakka Mad Libs!!

On-topic, though, I fully expect to see Chaos to rise from the ashes sooner or later. You're still expected to get a new codex sometime next year.

Experiment 626 wrote:

So instead of a focused theme, we have stupidity such as Heresy Veterans who are actually worse than present day Loyalist Marines, and recently turned Renegades who hilariously insist on dumping all of their modern tech at the Cadian Gate before exiting into the Eye to become Chaos Marines!
And those Dark Mechanicum guys who have thrown off the shackles of the Priesthood's rigid rules, are instead apparently the least adept guys in the entire galaxy at coming up with new things.

This. This has always been my main bugbear with CSM. We need a direction.

Want us to be Legions? Ok, buff us. Make us an army of expensive elite infantry with buffed stats and USRs that make us stronger than the average Marine. If we're going to be more expensive then standard Marines we need a profile and some rules and abilities that account for the points cost. I've had Ork players look at me in quiet shock that CSM Terminators are basically standard marines with a 2+ armour save. Doubly bad in the CSM ruleset because we don't get ATSKNF to at least make them stand their ground.

Want us to be Renegades? Ok, drop our points, take away the Heresy-era tech and give us a bigger shared armoury with the Imperials. Give us Whirlwinds, give us Storm bolters, give us Storm Shields, give us that stuff that you expect us to believe that CSM dump into an arms amnesty at either the Maelstrom or Cadian Gate before running off to shout Hail Chaos!

Want us to be Lost and the Damned? Go away. Forge World got there first.

Want us to be Dark Mechanicus? Ugh. Just make a Dark Mechanicus book. I don't know any CSM players who started CSM to play Dark Mechanicus. They are not the core of our army so stop trying to make us Dinobot reliant. You took Daemons away, please take this gak away and give it a book it deserves, thanks.

PS - KDK flopped for the 'Make CSM better' approach - it turned out to be a better Khornate Daemon army with a few choice CSM units which could well be allies.

PS - Your supplements are flops too. Reprinting books based around our current mess of a book with tacked on dataslate and redone Apoc formations isn't even a band-aid for the mess we are in. It's more akin to glitter you are attempting to sprinkle over the steaming pile of a book we have at the moment.

 EnTyme wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I don't even want to get into the apocalyptic rage-fest that went down when _______ became possible... Jesus, the forums lit up for almost a month with claims that the game was beyond salvagable, and ______ were auto-win unless ______ was banned and/or a hugely punishing _____ limit was put in place.

Ooh! It's Dakka Mad Libs!!

On-topic, though, I fully expect to see Chaos to rise from the ashes sooner or later. You're still expected to get a new codex sometime next year.

At this point I almost hope the codex is terrible, save me a lot of munny. Not bought anything from GW in ages, this'd make me start again.

Experiment 626 wrote:
GW's problem is that;
1. They believe that Chaos has to be vastly different from their loyalist counterparts in order to not simply be viewed as a direct clone of 'Marines but with spikes!'.

2. And worst of all, the supposed "super reward" from that chart, instead is actually the very last thing that any Chaos player wants to roll, since you trade out an effective character for a hugely awful naked Daemon Prince.


3. GW doesn't know what to do with the faction.
Is the codex supposed to focused on the Heresy Era veterans? What about recently turned Renegade Chapters? Oh, and let's not forget about those Dark Mechanicus guys & Chaos Cults either!
So instead of a focused theme, we have stupidity such as Heresy Veterans who are actually worse than present day Loyalist Marines, and recently turned Renegades who hilariously insist on dumping all of their modern tech at the Cadian Gate before exiting into the Eye to become Chaos Marines!
And those Dark Mechanicum guys who have thrown off the shackles of the Priesthood's rigid rules, are instead apparently the least adept guys in the entire galaxy at coming up with new things.

1) Chaos DOES need to be vastly different, that's why its done on a separate codex. What would be the point otherwise?

2) You get a free MC. Y'know, the things that instagib tanks and eat characters? It's one of the many reasons CSM needs a nerf.

3) It represents all the CSM. The reason that the new renegades lose the new tech is for an attempt at balance. And after 10k years sitting in the warp, you'd lose all ability to do anything useful, so of course the dark mech deosnt make new stuff.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
In all honest chaos shouldn't have grav weaponry and stuff. You guys are good where you're at. I mean look at helldrakes.. I wish I had something similar in my eldar forces. Super jelly

Finally, someone sensible in this thread.

You CSM players constantly whine about how you are sooo hard done by. Get over it, you've got one of the better codexes. You could be Ultramarines, who get blander and blander every edition as the things that made them special get given to other factions.

 Selym wrote:
Don't worry, ot's balanced because you are a filthy heretic and how dare you try to win against ULTRAMARINES, your spiritual lieges.

It's ironic that you're only ever right when you're being sarcastic... CSM are the bad guys of 40k, you're supposed to lose.