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So I was bored at work and thought up a little theory that I thought might iterest the people here at dakka. So there is a semi-obscure forgeworld space marine chapter master called Asterion Moloc, and these are a few highlights of his backstory.

He's the chapter master of the minotaurs, and seeming has been since its inception.

He has survived countless events that should have killed any normal marine.

He owns what seems to be a custodes spear.

His chapter uses a large amount of pre-heresy suits of armor despite being a twenty first founding chapter.

His chapter is mentioned in fluff that takes place BEFORE the twenty first founding.

He has a VERY strong connection to terra, and the high lords.

And finally he is FETHING huge. I mean other space marines thing he is huge. This man is quite a few heads taller than anyone else in the chapter.

So what do you guys think? Is this interesting? Stupid? Just plain overdone?

Interesting? Yes. Stupid? Maybe just a bit, yeah. Just plain overdone? Perhaps.

GW has a thing with Mary-Sue's for it's popular entities (Cato Sicarius, Maugan Ra, Farsight), so I think it may just be GW trying to make him as good as possible by making him brilliant at/with everything and having cool stuff. It's just a thing that they do.

Then again he is huge, charismatic and well equipped, and they do sound like Primarch traits. I personally heavily doubt it (at least with my knowledge of the fluff), but I'm not going to go out and say it's entirely impossible (at least with my knowledge of the fluff).

He was beaten pretty soundly by a Necron in a duel so I don't think he's got the stones.

Everyone keeps forgetting the two missing primarcs are there for fan created legions.

Only need one missing one for that purpose. Let's pretend gw was pretty smart and had foresight when writing fluff. If so this dude might fit the bill from his physical attributes alone. Unless it's an ogryn hiding in customized power armour he sounds pretty huge if he looms over marines that are already much bigger then humans.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Everyone keeps forgetting the two missing primarcs are there for fan created legions.

Probably because it's not actually true.

You don't need missing legions in order to create your own Chapter. There are plenty of gaps in the 'official' Chapters for that without resorting to using a group that is completely deleted from Imperial records, something that would make no sense at all if they were still running around.



The missing legions are just there for a bit of colour in the background. The whole 'they're for fan-made stuff' thing was an idea that gamers came up with, not anything official from the Studio.

 insaniak wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Everyone keeps forgetting the two missing primarcs are there for fan created legions.

Probably because it's not actually true.

You don't need missing legions in order to create your own Chapter. There are plenty of gaps in the 'official' Chapters for that without resorting to using a group that is completely deleted from Imperial records, something that would make no sense at all if they were still running around.



The missing legions are just there for a bit of colour in the background. The whole 'they're for fan-made stuff' thing was an idea that gamers came up with, not anything official from the Studio.

I can agree to that, but at the same time you could argue for them being just freed up for fan made fluff using Occam's razor

Moloc's a robot.

I think Moloc being a Perpetual is more likely. Maybe Tyberos too since his armor is shown in a HH rulebook, and I certainly doubt the Chapter could keep the armor functioning THAT long without the dude inside always surviving stuff.

Actually, it's even less nice than that; it's heavily implied that the guy in the armour isn't Moloc - the original Moloc, anyway - but just thinks he is.

The Minotaurs are the High Lords' "go and be douchebags to these people" chapter - they use not-entirely-legal force-growing tech to bulk out their numbers so they have the numerical advantage, and if 'moloch' gets killed they essentially brainwash a replacement into thinking he's Moloc.

The armour and weapons are rare but - when you think about it - also not. Maximus armour is an old pattern, but since these guys are essentially in the High Lords of Terra's pocketbook, and Mars itself is right there... less of an issue. Equally, a custodian spear is a powerful relic weapon, but unlike the gauntlets of macragge, or the sword of secrets, it's not actually unique or irreplaceable.

Assuming you don't have to replace it very often - the guy holding it is still a chapter master, after all - it's a hell of a weapon to give the impression that you've got terra on your side. And again, if they're still made anywhere, it'll be either on terra or in the himalaysian forges.

No, the Primarchs are the Emperor's sons. They wouldn't accept any authority other than one of their own or the Emperor himself, and there's no way they would meekly do the High Lords' bidding.

Even Guilliman made himself Lord Commander (of all of the Imperium's military) when he was one of the High Lords, effectively giving him control over them. In the Emperor's absence, a Primarch would either run the Council or ignore them and do their own thing.

Guillimon once said that marines are servants of the Imperium not it's leaders. Marines had a chance once after the Beheading but they reinstated the High Council and went back to their posts.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Guillimon once said that marines are servants of the Imperium not it's leaders. Marines had a chance once after the Beheading but they reinstated the High Council and went back to their posts.

Yet Guilliman was himself a High Lord, and the one with the most authority. Besides, Primarchs are not marines. They're described as demigods in the fluff (sometimes to the extent that mortals suffer seizures, spontaneously cry, etc in their presence), which doesn't apply to a normal marine.

But no, it's already been confirmed in The First Heretic that two Primarchs were already lost before the Heresy. Already posted this in another thread about missing Primarchs but here we go again:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
It's from the The First Heretic, pg 163

"Two already lost." Lorgar looked back to the city. "I still recall how they-"

"Enough," warned Magnus. "Honour the oath you took that day".

Spoiler:

The conversation is about the possibility of the same fate befalling the Word Bearers and how Russ spoke in Lorgar's favour after the legion was chastised by the Emperor, saying that he had already lost two brothers and had no desire to lose a third.

So yea, it's confirmed that two Primarchs were already lost/purged at that point.

If Moloc was a Primarch, he wouldn't hide it. He would depose the HLoT and take over.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Everyone keeps forgetting the two missing primarcs are there for fan created legions.

Probably because it's not actually true.

You don't need missing legions in order to create your own Chapter. There are plenty of gaps in the 'official' Chapters for that without resorting to using a group that is completely deleted from Imperial records, something that would make no sense at all if they were still running around.



The missing legions are just there for a bit of colour in the background. The whole 'they're for fan-made stuff' thing was an idea that gamers came up with, not anything official from the Studio.

I can agree to that, but at the same time you could argue for them being just freed up for fan made fluff using Occam's razor

Alternatively, you can use the two missing Legions for fan-made Legions in the game designed for Legions to fight in it.

There are primarch sized space Marines in fluff prior to Asterion Moloc's inception I.e. Silas Alberec of the Exorcists

Silas Alberec shows up at the same time though, doesn't he?

The conspiracy grows!

I thought Moloc was more likely a name given. Whe one dies, it is hidden and then given to the next chapter to continue the legacy of an unkillable warrior.

No where near large enough to be a primarch, and rules wise, no where near as durable (I know rules don't reflect fluff etc but in this case, the would do, to a certain extent).

Moloc is either cloned to keep a new version of him whenever another gets pasted, or they are replacements that take on the persona of him and with a little techno wizardry are augmented to keep his physical characteristics somewhat similar.

Sort of like the grey fox in elder scrolls or the many versions of batman post Bruce Wayne. Just another guy taking the mantle.

There was an old rumour that sigmar was one of the primarchs, I liked that idea quite a bit.

The custodes might get a bit board of sweeping up the dust around the Emp. So do a bit of moon lighting.

Moloc's model is smaller than any of the primarchs, his rules is weaker, he doesn't behave like a Primarch, he appeared out of nowhere... Is there anything at all actually pointing at him being one?

 slip wrote:
There was an old rumour that sigmar was one of the primarchs, I liked that idea quite a bit.

It has been debunked many times.

Engrenages wrote:

 slip wrote:
There was an old rumour that sigmar was one of the primarchs, I liked that idea quite a bit.

It has been debunked many times.

Argued, not debunked. If it were debunked people wouldn't be able to keep finding connections.

Finding, or simply seeing?

As I recall the forgotten legions are known as the "Forgotten" and the "purged". The original idea was that theese legions rebelled and then re-joined the Emperor and thus got stricken from the records as way of attonment. They where granted the honour of not being remmembered as traitors. This was way back in second ed and doesn't really hold up today since they dissapeared before Horus rebelled.

As far as Moloc is concerned there can be any number of reasons for his personality, position and gear. I instantly latched on to the idea that he's a former Custodes that somehow ended up a chapter master, an idea almost as out there as the one of him being a Primarch.

My idea was that they turned to chaos individually. So they had a chance to put it down and strike them from the record.
The reason the HH are not stircken is that the turned happened so fast and so quickly that everyone knew about them.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Finding, or simply seeing?

That phenomenom doesn't apply here. Notice that all examples point to naturally occuring formations like clouds, and all of which are completely random in their formation due to the way particles react to one another.
Writing, such as this, is never random, and there is always a logic or reference behind it. Whether intentional or not, there is a very similar pattern between Sigmar and most Primarchs, particularly Guilliman I must say.