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Please help me understand new rules written in new Angels of Death supplement.
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We have new Chapter Special Rules. For example Imperial Fists:

Imperial Fists Detachment
Any Detachment with the Space Marines Faction can be an Imperial Fists Detachment if all units in the Detachment with the Chapter Tactics special rule are drawn from the Imperial Fists. An Imperial Fists Detachment retains the Space Marines Faction and is treated in all ways as a Space Marines Detachment. Imperial Fists Detachment may also use the fallowing rules:

Bolter Drill: Imperial Fist models can re-roll all To Hits rolls of 1 made with bolt (...)
Siege Masters: <>

Do I understand it correctly that ALL MODELS in Detachment, regardles of actual having Chapter Tactics special rule gain Bolter Drill and Siege Masters special rule? So now Rhino and DropPod can re-roll "1" on storm-bolters?

Every single new Chapter in new book has this wording...

Only models with Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists) are considered to be Imperial Fists models. In game terms, we know that a model is drawn from a specific Chapter by looking at that model's Chapter Tactics. If the model doesn't have the Chapter Tactics special rule, it is effectively "neutral" and can't be said to be drawn from any specific Chapter.

In that sense, and from a pure gaming terms/rules standpoint, there is no such thing as an Imperial Fists Drop Pod or an Imperial Fists Rhino.

As I understand it: to be able to use the imperial fists detachment rules the models in the detachment that have chapter tactics must all be drawn from the imperial fists chapter. So they cannot include a unit or a model with different chapter tactics in order to be an imperial fist detachment. Vehicles (from the space marine faction) don't have chapter tactics but are still part of the detachment so they can use the detachment rules. I can be wrong but that's my interpretation of the rule. I hope it helps.

 Kriswall wrote:
Only models with Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists) are considered to be Imperial Fists models. In game terms, we know that a model is drawn from a specific Chapter by looking at that model's Chapter Tactics. If the model doesn't have the Chapter Tactics special rule, it is effectively "neutral" and can't be said to be drawn from any specific Chapter.

In that sense, and from a pure gaming terms/rules standpoint, there is no such thing as an Imperial Fists Drop Pod or an Imperial Fists Rhino.

I think this one turns it around, though, Kriswall. Basically it bounces the Chapter Tactics back around through the rest of the Detachment.

All units in the detachment that have Chapter Tactics would have Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists); which would then class the detachment as an Imperial Fists Detachment; which would then classify the Rhinos and Land Raiders as Imperial Fists and get Bolter Drill and Siege Master, even though they do not have Chapter Tactics.

Of course, that is just going by this page alone and not including any context previous pages may present which may refine this information even further.

What Charistoph said...
Now this applies to chapters included in new book. AFAIK Ultramarines does not have their "Ultramarines Detachment" page so they have to use original C:SM CT ruling.
Damn you GW, this rule inconsistency is really annoying!

 Charistoph wrote:
All units in the detachment that have Chapter Tactics would have Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists); which would then class the detachment as an Imperial Fists Detachment; which would then classify the Rhinos and Land Raiders as Imperial Fists...

I don't see where this is listed as a benefit of being an 'Imperial Fist Detachment'. We're not given any new instructions as to how to determine if a model is an 'Imperial Fist model'.

Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
All units in the detachment that have Chapter Tactics would have Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists); which would then class the detachment as an Imperial Fists Detachment; which would then classify the Rhinos and Land Raiders as Imperial Fists...

I don't see where this is listed as a benefit of being an 'Imperial Fist Detachment'. We're not given any new instructions as to how to determine if a model is an 'Imperial Fist model'.

Really? That is all the rule is talking about.

Any Detachment with the Space Marines Faction can be an Imperial Fists Detachment if all units in the Detachment with the Chapter Tactics special rule are drawn from the Imperial Fists.

Translated: If all the units in the detachment with Chapter Tactics have Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists), the detachment is considered an Imperial Fists Detachment. This doesn't consider units without Chapter Tactics to be a problem or conflict.

An Imperial Fists Detachment retains the Space Marines Faction and is treated in all ways as a Space Marines Detachment.

Translated: This Imperial Fists Detachment stays as Faction: Space Marines. So anything like Hatred (Space Marines), Preferred Enemy (Space Marines), etc would still affec this unit.

Imperial Fists Detachment may also use the fallowing rules:

Translated: These detachments may also get all these rules in addition to their own, i.e. Bolter Drill and Siege Masters. If a model is from this detachment, it gets these detachment rules.

Where did my translation get crossed?

 Charistoph wrote:

Imperial Fists Detachment may also use the fallowing rules:

Translated: These detachments may also get all these rules in addition to their own, i.e. Bolter Drill and Siege Masters. If a model is from this detachment, it gets these detachment rules.

Where did my translation get crossed?

however:

Bolter Drill: Imperial Fist models can re-roll all To Hits rolls of 1 made with ...

A Rhino still isn't an "Imperial Fist model". It's just a Rhino. Just like e.g. Assault Squads in a Skyhammer formation never gain Relentless since they're simply not Devastator Squads.

nekooni wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Imperial Fists Detachment may also use the fallowing rules:

Translated: These detachments may also get all these rules in addition to their own, i.e. Bolter Drill and Siege Masters. If a model is from this detachment, it gets these detachment rules.

Where did my translation get crossed?

however:

Bolter Drill: Imperial Fist models can re-roll all To Hits rolls of 1 made with ...

A Rhino still isn't an "Imperial Fist model". It's just a Rhino. Just like e.g. Assault Squads in a Skyhammer formation never gain Relentless since they're simply not Devastator Squads.

There is no such thing as an Imperial Fists model. There are Models with chapter Tactics. And models in an Imperial Fists Detachment. If they are part of an Imperial Fists Detachment they are Imperial Fists models.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
There is no such thing as an Imperial Fists model.

Then Bolter Drill does absolutely nothing since it affects 'Imperial Fist models'. Is that what you're saying?

nekooni wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Imperial Fists Detachment may also use the fallowing rules:

Translated: These detachments may also get all these rules in addition to their own, i.e. Bolter Drill and Siege Masters. If a model is from this detachment, it gets these detachment rules.

Where did my translation get crossed?

however:

Bolter Drill: Imperial Fist models can re-roll all To Hits rolls of 1 made with ...

A Rhino still isn't an "Imperial Fist model". It's just a Rhino. Just like e.g. Assault Squads in a Skyhammer formation never gain Relentless since they're simply not Devastator Squads.

How is a model in an Imperial Fist detachment not an Imperial Fist model?

As I said, the earlier portion is turning the Chapter Tactics concept and bouncing it back to the rest of the detachment instead of isolating it to just the possessors of the Chapter Tactics rule. If that first sentence did not exist, you would be correct. But it does exist and then applies the context of a Rhino being identified as an Imperial Fist model instead of just exclusively to the possessors of the Chapter Tactics rule.

Context, it is a thing.

 Charistoph wrote:
How is a model in an Imperial Fist detachment not an Imperial Fist model?

As I said, the earlier portion is turning the Chapter Tactics concept and bouncing it back to the rest of the detachment instead of isolating it to just the possessors of the Chapter Tactics rule. If that first sentence did not exist, you would be correct. But it does exist and then applies the context of a Rhino being identified as an Imperial Fist model instead of just exclusively to the possessors of the Chapter Tactics rule.

Context, it is a thing.

Why should we take 'context' over a clear and unambiguous rule? From Codex Space Marines:

The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter.

So the rule is very clear that an 'Imperial Fists model' is a model that in all cases has the 'Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists)' special rule. A Rhino or Land Raider does not have the 'Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists)' special rule.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
How is a model in an Imperial Fist detachment not an Imperial Fist model?

As I said, the earlier portion is turning the Chapter Tactics concept and bouncing it back to the rest of the detachment instead of isolating it to just the possessors of the Chapter Tactics rule. If that first sentence did not exist, you would be correct. But it does exist and then applies the context of a Rhino being identified as an Imperial Fist model instead of just exclusively to the possessors of the Chapter Tactics rule.

Context, it is a thing.

Why should we take 'context' over a clear and unambiguous rule? From Codex Space Marines:

The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter.

So the rule is very clear that an 'Imperial Fists model' is a model that in all cases has the 'Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists)' special rule. A Rhino or Land Raider does not have the 'Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists)' special rule.

Context provides the connections we need for establishing the flow of information by creating a framework to build on.

For example, thinking that a model has no connection with being an Imperial Fist model by only focusing on the Chapter Tactics rules and ignoring the first line of the paragraph in question will occur.

When we include this sentence in question, it then provides the context to consider a model without the Chapter Tactics rule to still be considered a model from that Chapter simply by being in this detachment.

Indeed, even remembering the Chapter Tactics rules is a framework of the context for this rule as well. One expands the context from one form to another, so long as you are using the rules of this expansion.

I initially thought that this now applies to all models in the detachment too, but am now not so certain.

If they really intended to give all models in an Imperial Fist detachment the rule, why not just outright say "all models in this detachment" rather than Copy/Paste the Chapter Tactics rule which says "Imperial Fists models".

There is already a definition of what an Imperial Fist model is as per the main codex "The rules will often refer to a model by its Chapter name; in all cases this refers to a model with the Chapter Tactics rule".

I'm not sure they intended to suddenly change that definition, especially because this will only benefit Imperial Fists (Bolter Drill, Siege Masters), Iron Hands (Machine Empathy) and Salamanders (Flamecraft) due to how those rules are specifically worded. White Scars and poor Raven Guard wont get any benefit. Ultramarines and Black Templars don't get any benefit because there's no such thing as an Ultramarine or Black Templar Detachment yet.

 GoonBandito wrote:
I initially thought that this now applies to all models in the detachment too, but am now not so certain.

If they really intended to give all models in an Imperial Fist detachment the rule, why not just outright say "all models in this detachment" rather than Copy/Paste the Chapter Tactics rule which says "Imperial Fists models".

There is already a definition of what an Imperial Fist model is as per the main codex "The rules will often refer to a model by its Chapter name; in all cases this refers to a model with the Chapter Tactics rule".

I'm not sure they intended to suddenly change that definition, especially because this will only benefit Imperial Fists (Bolter Drill, Siege Masters), Iron Hands (Machine Empathy) and Salamanders (Flamecraft) due to how those rules are specifically worded. White Scars and poor Raven Guard wont get any benefit. Ultramarines and Black Templars don't get any benefit because there's no such thing as an Ultramarine or Black Templar Detachment yet.

Without seeing more of the book (the context of previous pages I mentioned earlier) it would be difficult to say. It is most definitely worded so not to match the same specificity of the Codex. Indeed, it grows beyond it after the fact.

Oddly enough, there is no way you can have any more than one Chapter Tactic in a Detachment anyway, so pointing that out as a requirement is rather redundant. At least, at this time it is. We do not know what they may have planned for the next generation of Codex Marines (although, it is a little early to be planning THAT out, imo).

However, I should point out that Formations that are all Vehicle would not be able to be supported by this. At least, if they are on their own. If part of the Gladius (or similar) than they would be brought in to work with it.

Honestly, RAI is pretty clear with this one I think (ie, all models in the Detachment benefit from Bolter Drill and Siege Masters).

The rule does nothing otherwise as all Imperial Fists models (as defined by Codex: Space Marines) already have those rules to begin with.

Wording of the rule, presented by me in first post, clearly define that entire detachment becomes Imperial Fist if models with CT(Imperial Fists) are in that detachment.

Any Detachment with the Space Marines Faction can be an Imperial Fists Detachment if all units in the Detachment with the Chapter Tactics special rule are drawn from the Imperial Fists.

Clearly C:SM Chapter Tactics special rule is used to define that entire Detcachment becomes Imperial Fists.
Then:

Imperial Fists Detachment may also use the fallowing rules:
Bolter Drill: (rule)
Siege Masters: (rule)

again: Imperial Fists Detachment may use rules: Bolter Drill
It no longer has anything to do with actual C:SM Chapter Tactics special rule. Bolter Drill rule is granted to Detachment!

And then:

Bolter Drill: Imperial Fists models (...)

Bolter Drill is no longer bound to Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists), it is no longer bound to C:SM Chapter Tactics. That rule alone was granted to Detachment just because in that Detachments were models with CT(IF).

Personally I don't know what RAI would be anymore. Previously I figured out what what GW in C:SM Chapter Tactics had in mind (only models with CT benefit), and it was questioned and highly debatable by many players.
Now we have this. Which give us another debate what in context of new "Iron Hands Detachment" wording of Machine Empathy means.

Good job GW - you know how to divide players even before actual game begins.

 danyboy wrote:
Wording of the rule, presented by me in first post, clearly define that entire detachment becomes Imperial Fist if models with CT(Imperial Fists) are in that detachment.

Any Detachment with the Space Marines Faction can be an Imperial Fists Detachment if all units in the Detachment with the Chapter Tactics special rule are drawn from the Imperial Fists.

Clearly C:SM Chapter Tactics special rule is used to define that entire Detcachment becomes Imperial Fists.
Then:

Imperial Fists Detachment may also use the fallowing rules:
Bolter Drill: (rule)
Siege Masters: (rule)

again: Imperial Fists Detachment may use rules: Bolter Drill
It no longer has anything to do with actual C:SM Chapter Tactics special rule. Bolter Drill rule is granted to Detachment!

And then:

Bolter Drill: Imperial Fists models (...)

Bolter Drill is no longer bound to Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists), it is no longer bound to C:SM Chapter Tactics. That rule alone was granted to Detachment just because in that Detachments were models with CT(IF).

Personally I don't know what RAI would be anymore. Previously I figured out what what GW in C:SM Chapter Tactics had in mind (only models with CT benefit), and it was questioned and highly debatable by many players.
Now we have this. Which give us another debate what in context of new "Iron Hands Detachment" wording of Machine Empathy means.

Good job GW - you know how to divide players even before actual game begins.

But there's a clear definition what a "Chaptername unit" or "Chaptername model" is - a model/unit with Chapter Tactics: Chaptername.
The detachment is fine having that rule, it (the Chapter Tactic benefit) simply only APPLIES to units with Chapter Tactics. Being an "Imperial Fists Detachment" doesn't give you anything else. If that entailed "any model is granted the Special Rule Chapter Tactics", I'd agree - but that is never mentioned anywhere and as long as you don't specifically have a Special Rule, you don't have it.

nekooni wrote:
But there's a clear definition what a "Chaptername unit" or "Chaptername model" is - a model/unit with Chapter Tactics: Chaptername.
The detachment is fine having that rule, it (the Chapter Tactic benefit) simply only APPLIES to units with Chapter Tactics. Being an "Imperial Fists Detachment" doesn't give you anything else. If that entailed "any model is granted the Special Rule Chapter Tactics", I'd agree - but that is never mentioned anywhere and as long as you don't specifically have a Special Rule, you don't have it.

So tell me:

Imperial Fists Detachment may use rules: Bolter Drill
Bolter Drill: Imperial Fists models

From two statements above what rule exactly require you to check having/not having Chapter Tactics at all?
Clearly "Detachment" is not shooting with bolters - models/units/vehicles/creatures in Detachment shoot bolters.

Nekooni/Ghaz/Kriswall I see your point. Normally I would agree. At least now we have clear permission to nominate vehicles with Storm of Fire Warlord Trait (or not?).

What I don't see is why GW once again give us rules that are not clear...

 danyboy wrote:

nekooni wrote:
But there's a clear definition what a "Chaptername unit" or "Chaptername model" is - a model/unit with Chapter Tactics: Chaptername.
The detachment is fine having that rule, it (the Chapter Tactic benefit) simply only APPLIES to units with Chapter Tactics. Being an "Imperial Fists Detachment" doesn't give you anything else. If that entailed "any model is granted the Special Rule Chapter Tactics", I'd agree - but that is never mentioned anywhere and as long as you don't specifically have a Special Rule, you don't have it.

So tell me:

Imperial Fists Detachment may use rules: Bolter Drill
Bolter Drill: Imperial Fists models

From two statements above what rule exactly require you to check having/not having Chapter Tactics at all?
Clearly "Detachment" is not shooting with bolters - models/units/vehicles/creatures in Detachment shoot bolters.

Nekooni/Ghaz/Kriswall I see your point. Normally I would agree. At least now we have clear permission to nominate vehicles with Storm of Fire Warlord Trait (or not?).

What I don't see is why GW once again give us rules that are not clear...

Because they still suck at writing rules.

The Imperial Fists detachment as a whole gains Bolter Drill. Just like the entire Talon Strike Force detachment gains the Know When To Strike rule.

Bolter Drill applies it's benefit to "Imperial Fists models", and we all know what that means: A model with Chapter Tactics: Imperial Fists. Sure you could argue that the Bolter Drill rule is applied to the whole detachment, but a Rhino still isn't eligible to actually benefit from it. Just like a unit that isn't held in Reserve is unable to benefit from Know When To Strike. Another example would be the Shadowstrike Kill Team, scouts are clearly unable to benefit from the "... On Target" rule even though they could arrive via deep strike.

If Bolter Drill said something along the lines of "All models with this rule ..." it would work, but it requires the model to be an Imperial Fists model.

nekooni wrote:
Because they still suck at writing rules.

The Imperial Fists detachment as a whole gains Bolter Drill. Just like the entire Talon Strike Force detachment gains the Know When To Strike rule.

Bolter Drill applies it's benefit to "Imperial Fists models", and we all know what that means: A model with Chapter Tactics: Imperial Fists.

Problem I have with this is that it is written in Chapter Tactcis special rule and is only taken into account when Chapter Tactics or rules granted by the Chapter tactics addresses by the Chapter name.
Example with Chapter Tactics:
Tactical Marine -> CT(IF) -> Bolter Drill -> Everytime rule addresses by Chapter name it only applies to models with CT rule. Re-roll.
Rhino -> No CT(IF) -> No Bolter Drill -> no rule to apply

Example with "NEW DETACHMENT RULES"
Tactical Marine -> part of IF Detachment -> Bolter Drill -> IF model. Re-roll.
Rhino -> part of IF Detachment -> Bolter Drill -> IF model. Re-roll.
With new rules we don't have to/need to look at Chapter Tactics at all.
Add this sentence from SM Decurion rules:

All units in the Detachment must have the Space Marines Faction and must be drawn from the same Chapter.

And you have long discussion with your opponent before game starts.

Of course I know that:
1. only Chapter Tactics allows for being drawn from Chapter;
2. CT rules/granted by, only applies to models with CT rule;
3. all models in detachments have to be drawn from the same chapter, but only those with CT rule;
4. Detachment rules are granted to Detachment;
5. but then you should still check Chapter Tactics rule;
6. and see that "Chapter name" models in rule granted to entire detachment, who is made of models that all have to be drawn from the same chapter, only applies to models that have CT rule in the first place.

This are 6 steps that can be very easily misenterpreted by players and of course are.

I am really, really, really disappointed right now.

 danyboy wrote:

Problem I have with this is that it is written in Chapter Tactcis special rule and is only taken into account when Chapter Tactics or rules granted by the Chapter tactics addresses by the Chapter name.
Example with Chapter Tactics:
Tactical Marine -> CT(IF) -> Bolter Drill -> Everytime rule addresses by Chapter name it only applies to models with CT rule. Re-roll.
Rhino -> No CT(IF) -> No Bolter Drill -> no rule to apply

Example with "NEW DETACHMENT RULES"
Tactical Marine -> part of IF Detachment -> Bolter Drill -> IF model. Re-roll.
Rhino -> part of IF Detachment -> Bolter Drill -> IF model. Re-roll.
With new rules we don't have to/need to look at Chapter Tactics at all.

I can see WHY people want to reinterpret the rules, but the Chapter Tactics rule is still part of any Space Marine army and remains valid. That section of the codex holds true whatever supplement you use IN ADDITION. You simply can't play any formation or detachment from the Angels of Death supplement without the Codex, so the Codex rules still apply. And they tell you that in all instances, an "Imperial Fists model" refers to a model with Chapter Tactics: Imperial Fists. Which isn't overridden or to be ignored just by using a supplement. The supplement would have to redefine what "an Imperial Fists model/unit" means in order to override the Codex rule.

outside of the RAW aspects: Excluding the Iron Hands empathy thing I believe their intention clearly was to not give Chapter Tactic benefits to anything without that rule. IWND for non-dreadnought-vehicles could be debated, but that's hopefully going to be answered by the FAQs they gathered via Facebook recently.
I simply don't see why they would want to change that in any way without simply rewriting the Bolter Drill as "All models".

I am really, really, really disappointed right now.

It's a supplement that gives you new rules, that's all. If you read them with a grain of salt and simply go for the RAI instead of trying to find loopholes (there's probably a ton in each and every GW rule book), you'll be much happier with it ;-)

BTW: What I really don't get is people complaining that the additional detachments/formations are less powerful than the Gladius. WHY would you want to encourage power creep? It's not like we need something more powerful than the Gladius SF to survive on the table. I'm rather happy they didn't go for "moar power".

But then why would GW bother writing these out as Detachment Rules then if it changes absolutely nothing?

And don't just say "GW is bad at rules" because we know that.

Note I'm not arguing RAW, and I'm referring to your 'outside of other RAW aspects' part.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
But then why would GW bother writing these out as Detachment Rules then if it changes absolutely nothing?

And don't just say "GW is bad at rules" because we know that.

Note I'm not arguing RAW, and I'm referring to your 'outside of other RAW aspects' part.

To have all the required rules in one place. Kauyon also contains the Chapter Tactic rules for Raven Guard and White Scars even though they could've simply pointed at the Codex instead. Which is a really fething stupid idea since it'll automatically create issues once there is a new Codex - all these supplements will be outdated then as the written rules for them will contain the then-old Chapter Tactic rules.

Oh, and after visiting the supplement again: Kauyon says "The following rules apply to White Scars Detachments", so it's very much the same as in the AoD supplement.

The chapter tactics rule in the SM codex has a clear flaw in it's wording. If you follow it to the letter you can never include a vehicle in a detachment/formation which is assigned to a Chapter Tactic.

Nobody plays it that way because obviously that notion is absurd and certainly not the intent of the rule. We all had a good chuckle over this when it was first pointed out.

The way the sentence in the supplement is worded seems to be subtlety acknowledging that "oops" in the original Chapter Tactics rule to allow non-chapter tactics Units (ie non dreadnought vehicles) to be used in the detachment like they were always meant to be.

Nothing that I have seen listed so far in this thread has convinced me that this allows units without Chapter Tactics to be rule-lawyer'd into suddenly gaining the benefit of having access to them.

Lusiphur wrote:
The chapter tactics rule in the SM codex has a clear flaw in it's wording. If you follow it to the letter you can never include a vehicle in a detachment/formation which is assigned to a Chapter Tactic.

Nobody plays it that way because obviously that notion is absurd and certainly not the intent of the rule. We all had a good chuckle over this when it was first pointed out.

The way the sentence in the supplement is worded seems to be subtlety acknowledging that "oops" in the original Chapter Tactics rule to allow non-chapter tactics Units (ie non dreadnought vehicles) to be used in the detachment like they were always meant to be.

Nothing that I have seen listed so far in this thread has convinced me that this allows units without Chapter Tactics to be rule-lawyer'd into suddenly gaining the benefit of having access to them.

I've not seen a requirement that said you couldn't have "Chapter (Tactic)-less" units in a detachment, where would I find that?

I am at work at the moment so I can't pull out the page and graph at this time. But I am confident I am remembering this correctly. Page and graph will need to wait until in the evening if is going to come from me.

Edit: And it wasn't so much that they can't be included in a detachment, but they couldn't share a detachment with something that had it.

nekooni wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:
The chapter tactics rule in the SM codex has a clear flaw in it's wording. If you follow it to the letter you can never include a vehicle in a detachment/formation which is assigned to a Chapter Tactic.

Nobody plays it that way because obviously that notion is absurd and certainly not the intent of the rule. We all had a good chuckle over this when it was first pointed out.

The way the sentence in the supplement is worded seems to be subtlety acknowledging that "oops" in the original Chapter Tactics rule to allow non-chapter tactics Units (ie non dreadnought vehicles) to be used in the detachment like they were always meant to be.

Nothing that I have seen listed so far in this thread has convinced me that this allows units without Chapter Tactics to be rule-lawyer'd into suddenly gaining the benefit of having access to them.

I've not seen a requirement that said you couldn't have "Chapter (Tactic)-less" units in a detachment, where would I find that?

SM dex, page 189 Chapter Tactics "...All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter. ..."

I read this just like Lusiphur does, an attempt to fix a perceived problem:
models without chapter tactics in a detachment or formation violate this rule and therefore there are only two logical choices
1) prohibit the SM player from playing everything from Rhinos to Droppods - OR -
2) allow them the free vehicles to benefit from CT.

As stated above there is a third option besides the strawman-argument:
3) RAI/HIWPI insert ",with the Chapter Tactics special rule," in the sentence above. Fixed. No additional buffs needed.

 Stephanius wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Lusiphur wrote:
The chapter tactics rule in the SM codex has a clear flaw in it's wording. If you follow it to the letter you can never include a vehicle in a detachment/formation which is assigned to a Chapter Tactic.

Nobody plays it that way because obviously that notion is absurd and certainly not the intent of the rule. We all had a good chuckle over this when it was first pointed out.

The way the sentence in the supplement is worded seems to be subtlety acknowledging that "oops" in the original Chapter Tactics rule to allow non-chapter tactics Units (ie non dreadnought vehicles) to be used in the detachment like they were always meant to be.

Nothing that I have seen listed so far in this thread has convinced me that this allows units without Chapter Tactics to be rule-lawyer'd into suddenly gaining the benefit of having access to them.

I've not seen a requirement that said you couldn't have "Chapter (Tactic)-less" units in a detachment, where would I find that?

SM dex, page 189 Chapter Tactics "...All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter. ..."

I read this just like Lusiphur does, an attempt to fix a perceived problem:
models without chapter tactics in a detachment or formation violate this rule and therefore there are only two logical choices
1) prohibit the SM player from playing everything from Rhinos to Droppods - OR -
2) allow them the free vehicles to benefit from CT.

As stated above there is a third option besides the strawman-argument:
3) RAI/HIWPI insert ",with the Chapter Tactics special rule," in the sentence above. Fixed. No additional buffs needed.

I've always read it so that you could resolve it like that:
4) As long as no model is drawn from another Chapter, the rule is not violated. A Rhino cannot be drawn from a different Chapter under any circumstance.

But English isn't my native tongue and I don't have access to my German Codex right now, maybe that's what influenced me to read it like that.

So what is the point in having CT rule by some models (tacticals, dreadnoughts) and not by others (LotD, Rhinos).
What is the point in writing entire page of text of complex Chapter Tactics rule?
Enough would be: write Chapter name when you pick Detachment - model in that Detachment have: Bolter Drill and Siege Master.One sentence. Problem solved?
No it is not, because THERE IS much deeper RAI behind this wall of text (CT rule).
Also 'your'simlifying CT rule in AoD supplement causes that it does not change how CT rule works for Ultramarines and their successors.