Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
People seem to missing that the AoD suppliment is introducing Decurion-styled, Chapter-specific detachments composed of a mix of generic Space Marine detachments and chapter specific detachments. Normally, you can mix and match Chapters in a single army by simply taking a different detchment for each chapter. With these new AoDecurions, every model with Chapter Tactics must have the same Chaptic Tactic, at which point the entire AoDecurion benefits. That's a change from the SM codex, a change related specifically with using the AoD rules.

If I understand what you're saying, but no, that's not right. This page on the OP doesn't distinguish all models in the army, just the detachments. Normally speaking, you cannot mix and match Chapter Tactics in a Detachment, and that means the entire Gladius with no exceptions.

If this new supplement is using a "Contingent" which can mix and match Chapter Tactics with its Choices, then it would make a little more sense to be setting it up that way. As I have said, knowing the context of all the book's rules would be useful.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GW needs a new term for these Decurions, like "Contingent", so people can be less confused. It's much rasier to think a Contingent is an FoC composed of Detachments and Formations, rather than the current Detachment composed of Detachments mess we have right now. GW needs to use their words! And hire a competent line editor.

No argument there. "Contingent" is as good as any for a one word definition. I've been using Choice-based Detachment as opposed to Role-based Detachment or Formation, since we don't have a global definition for these aside from the original Decurion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 danyboy wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
My point was that there is more to this book than the leaked pages. Keep all this in mind.

I have this book and I don't see any additional rules that would clarify/explain those Detachment rules.
Here is one page of introduction to AoD book rules:
https://warofsigmar.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/blogging/picture5/666/5.jpg

People have missed rules before.

My local LGS shut down a couple weeks ago, so I have been out of the loop on release dates, and often someone had a copy I can peruse quickly.

“The Sternhammer Strike Force is a special type of Detachment that can be included in any Battle-forged Space Marine army. Unlike the Detachments shown in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, it has a Force Organisation Chart whose slots are a combination of specific Formations and Army List Entries instead of Battlefield Roles. However, it still has compulsory and optional elements, as well as Restrictions and Command Benefits, just like any other Detachment.

Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Sternhammer Strike Force are an exception. They count ​
as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and special rules. ​
If your Warlord belongs to a Formation or Army List Entry that makes up part of a Sternhammer Strike Force, that entire Strike Force is your Primary Detachment.

Command Benefits:
Dorn’s Legacy:
Superior Bolter Drill:
Demolition Expertise:

Just like any other Decurion/Contingent/Strike Force.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

“The Sternhammer Strike Force is a special type of Detachment that can be included in any Battle-forged Space Marine army. Unlike the Detachments shown in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, it has a Force Organisation Chart whose slots are a combination of specific Formations and Army List Entries instead of Battlefield Roles. However, it still has compulsory and optional elements, as well as Restrictions and Command Benefits, just like any other Detachment.

Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Sternhammer Strike Force are an exception. They count ​
as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and special rules. ​
If your Warlord belongs to a Formation or Army List Entry that makes up part of a Sternhammer Strike Force, that entire Strike Force is your Primary Detachment.

Command Benefits:
Dorn’s Legacy:
Superior Bolter Drill:
Demolition Expertise:

Just like any other Decurion/Contingent/Strike Force.

SJ

So nothing has changed. If I run a Gladius, all the models inside must use the same Chapter Tactics, as they are the same Detachment.

It sounded earlier as if you were suggesting you couldn't mix and match Chapter Tactics in the army. This is still possible.

I can run a Raven Guard Gladius of a Demi Company and 10th Company, but then have an Armoured Task Force with Imperial Fists. The Armoured Task Force would not get any Gladius Benefits, while the Demi Company and 10th Company would have Gladius Benefits.

So, too, I can run a Sternhammer Strike Force with Imperial Fists, then run a 10th Company of Raven Guard. The 10th Company wouldn't gain any Benefit from the Sternhammer, though.

So. After reading the book.

Sternhammer says nothing about Siege Masters and Bolter Drill anyway.

It has Superior Bolter Drill and Demolition Expertise, Wich effect all models in the detachment, not all Imperial Fists models.

Superior Bolter Drill only effecting units that already have Bolter Drill. So no. No vehicle get it.

So regular Imperial Fists Detachments stay the same as they always have, and Sternhammer gives the two special rules to Everything in the detachment.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but technically every model in a Detachment has the special rules of their Detachment (or was it specifically just Formations, I can't remember), even if they don't benefit from them.

So technically RAW every model in a Sternhammer has Bolter Drill and therefore can benefit from Superior Bolter Drill, even if they can't benefit from Bolter Drill.

Or have a misread something?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but technically every model in a Detachment has the special rules of their Detachment (or was it specifically just Formations, I can't remember), even if they don't benefit from them.

That is correct. Sternguard in a CAD still have Objective Secured, it just isn't useful for them so long as they are Elites and not Troops.

The "contingents" are a little different. Units may have two sets of detachment special rules to work with: The Command Benefits provided by the "contingent" and the Special Rules provided by their Formation (provided it is a Formation Choice and not just an ALE Choice), but not the Special Rules from other Choices in the contingent.

I have question, if an iron hand model is a model with the chapter tactics (iron hands), what is an iron hand tank, as refered to by the ironstone text?

Already asked and answered in this thread.

 Ghaz wrote:
Already asked and answered in this thread.

Found it.
So IH Tank = a tank in an IH detachment
IH model = a model with the CT (IH)

I can infer that IH vehicle = a vehicle in an IH detachment?
So eligible to machine empathy, which just ask for a an IH vehicle?

 Charistoph wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but technically every model in a Detachment has the special rules of their Detachment (or was it specifically just Formations, I can't remember), even if they don't benefit from them.

That is correct. Sternguard in a CAD still have Objective Secured, it just isn't useful for them so long as they are Elites and not Troops.

The "contingents" are a little different. Units may have two sets of detachment special rules to work with: The Command Benefits provided by the "contingent" and the Special Rules provided by their Formation (provided it is a Formation Choice and not just an ALE Choice), but not the Special Rules from other Choices in the contingent.

Incorrect. This is a permissive rule-set. No where does it state that all units in a detachment get the rules. In the rule book it merely says: "This section of the detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in the detachment." By writing "some or all" they have indicated that the rules are not always given to all models in the detachment. Ie: no superior bolter drill for non-dreadnought vehicles.

 Kavish wrote:
Incorrect. This is a permissive rule-set. No where does it state that all units in a detachment get the rules. In the rule book it merely says: "This section of the detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in the detachment." By writing "some or all" they have indicated that the rules are not always given to all models in the detachment. Ie: no superior bolter drill for non-dreadnought vehicles.

I am correct. Sternguard have the rule, it just does not apply to them until they are Troops.

I am really glad GW gives models the same rule twice. That way if someone missed the rule in the required book, the supplement has you covered.

I'd like to point out in this instance it also states in each Srrike Force description that all units in the detachments must be drawn from the same chapter. For example...

“Restrictions:
This Detachment must include at least one Core choice and one Auxiliary choice. It may include up to one more Core choice, up to three Command choices and any number of additional Auxiliary choices, in any combination. Only the datasheets listed here can be included in this Detachment. All units in the Detachment must be drawn from the Salamanders Chapter”

So if everyone is claiming that Salamanders/Fists/Hands "models" are only models with Chapter Tactics, then how would it be possible to take any vehicles in these detachments other than Dreads? From the example above, in order for a unit to be taken in the Flameblade Strike Force it MUST be drawn from the Salamanders Chapter.

So if "in the rules" it states that in all cases a unit referred to by its Chapter name can ONLY be a unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule, then I submit it is technically impossible to take any vehicles in these formations other than Dreadnoughts.

Yes, you pointed out that CT and Detachment rules are broken from the very beginning.

I say again - if all models in Detachment would be allowed to gain CT benefits then:
- there would be absolutely no point in giving CT rule to some models and not to others (LotD, Rhino);
- the CT rule would be Detachment rule not model rule;
- there would be no point in writinig compex CT rule (who is/not drawn, what CT rules "have in mind" if they use Chapter name, etc) - it would only come down to pointing: this Detachment is Salamanders, all models have this and this.

Seriously guys don't you see that?
Until now there was debatable if vehicles without CT in IH detachment could use Machnie Empathy. Now some players want to use it on all models completly ignoring Chapter Tactics rule. Why? AoD don't change how CT rule works. Also Ultramarines and Black Templars don't have Detachment page in AoD so they have to obey some other rules?
Thanks GW!
Changing how CT rule works is for Errata not this supplement, because if it is broken, then it has to be fixed in main book - for everyone not only for those who bought supplement.

I'm not sure why they can't make that simple rule change either. They write up the Legions rules from Forgeworld with much better clarity than GW does with the Chapters.

I use Salamanders, all I'd like is for all my vehicles to get re-rolls to wound with heavy flamers. It's not game breaking. Imperial Fist vehicles with boltguns and heavy bolsters would re-roll 1's when shooting. Iron hand vehicles get IWND, Black Templars vehicles get adamantium will.

None of this is game breaking really, just makes our shoddy vehicles slightly less shoddy.

Either way, if the writers of this book did not intend to change the meaning of the Codex Chapter Tactics then they wrote more stuff into the rules that makes it even less clear. If they DID intend to change the rules then they did a super sloppy cut and paste job and were rather lazy.

What is game-breaking is what the Chapter detachment rules say.

Let's take a random Chapter than I happen to have the page open to, Iron Hands:

Any Detachment with the Space Marines Faction can be an Iron Hands Detachment if all units in the Detachment with the Chapter Tactics rule are drawn from the Iron Hands. An Iron Hands Detachment retains the Space Marines Faction and is treated in all ways as a Space Marines Detachment. Iron Hands Detachments may also use the following rules: The Flesh is Weak:(Same as the Chapter Tactic) Machine Empathy:(Same as the Chapter Tactic) March of the Ancients(effects dreadnoughts slots) Scions of the Forge(Adds slotless Techmarines under conditions) Gifts of the Gorgon(New Relics) Warlord Traits(Obv)

Now the Nice thing is the fix on Chapter Tactics where only units with chapter Tactics are required to have the Iron Hands tactics.

Then the "Iron Hands Detachment" gives all the models from the detachment those rules listed, So all the vehicles within the Iron Hands detachment do get IWND again(Same goes for Bolter Drill for Imp fist Detachments, and etc); because the rules that are exactly the same as Chapter tactics are not the Chapter Tactics rules and do not fall under their restrictions.

The Messed up part is that the Iron Hands Detachment does not tell us not to use the regular Chapter Tactics rules as well, so the various same-named rules under Chapter tactics and Chapter Detachment rules are 2 different rules with the same name and Same effect but are otherwise different(after all The version under Chapter Tactics is called "Chapter Tactics rules", and only effect models with Chapter Tactics). Each Chapter Other than Ultramarines Has a Chapter Tactic and Detachment Special rule that adds +1 to some sort of Roll. This leads us to An Iron hands Captain in a Command Squad with an Apothecary wearing the gorgon's chain adding +3 to his FnP(base 5+). Or Imp Fists adding +2 to the result when rolling on the Building damage table.

Personally I would house-rule it to the Chapter Detachment rules replacing Chapter Tactics entirely.

It would be much easier that way entirely. It also wouldn't break the game or shift any of the current meta much at all imho.

New Detachment rules states that you still need at least one model with CT (IH) rule in Detachment to call it Iron Hands Detachment.
Without it you are not allowed to give them those rules.
Without it Vehicles in would-be IH Detachment don't gain Machine Empathy either from CT or Detachment.
For me this breaks this new "Intention" that so many players want to see in AoD Detachment rule.
If GW would wanted to give those rules to all models then again this is not how it should be done.
Standalone Raptor Wing Formation will always be Chapterless Formation...

It would be a simple fix to just say "All models in a Salamanders detachment have the chapter tactics (salamanders) rules.

Either way, GW has poorly worded yet another rule!

 bomtek80 wrote:
It would be a simple fix to just say "All models in a Salamanders detachment have the chapter tactics (salamanders) rules.

This could be from the very beginning of 7th ed C:SM, but it isn't. AoD also don't give us so simple Chapter-Detachment rules.
So there is still some other "Intention" in those rules...

What do you think their "intention" is?

 danyboy wrote:
New Detachment rules states that you still need at least one model with CT (IH) rule in Detachment to call it Iron Hands Detachment.
Without it you are not allowed to give them those rules.
Without it Vehicles in would-be IH Detachment don't gain Machine Empathy either from CT or Detachment.
For me this breaks this new "Intention" that so many players want to see in AoD Detachment rule.
If GW would wanted to give those rules to all models then again this is not how it should be done.
Standalone Raptor Wing Formation will always be Chapterless Formation...

"Any detachment with the Space Marines Faction can be an Iron Hands detachment IF all units with the Chapter Tactics special rule are drawn from the Iron Hands."

There is no minimum number of units with Chapter Tactics (Iron Hands).

There are only two requirements to be an Iron Hands Detachment...

1) Space Marine Faction
2) If Chapter Tactics, they must be Iron Hands.

Whether they get the detachment rules is the only contentious point given how the codex specifies what a chapter specific model is.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Incorrect. This is a permissive rule-set. No where does it state that all units in a detachment get the rules. In the rule book it merely says: "This section of the detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in the detachment." By writing "some or all" they have indicated that the rules are not always given to all models in the detachment. Ie: no superior bolter drill for non-dreadnought vehicles.

I am correct. Sternguard have the rule, it just does not apply to them until they are Troops.

Do you have any evidence to back that up?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The rule only applies to troops FYI.

 Kavish wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Incorrect. This is a permissive rule-set. No where does it state that all units in a detachment get the rules. In the rule book it merely says: "This section of the detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in the detachment." By writing "some or all" they have indicated that the rules are not always given to all models in the detachment. Ie: no superior bolter drill for non-dreadnought vehicles.

I am correct. Sternguard have the rule, it just does not apply to them until they are Troops.

Do you have any evidence to back that up?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The rule only applies to troops FYI.

Does the Objective Secured rule only state Objective Secured (Troops)? No, so all the units get the rule.

Now, the rule itself then gives a status called the same as the rule and that portion is only given to Troops for a CAD.

So, yes, it only really applies to Troops, just as Ideal Mission Commander only applies to the Warlord, since they are the only ones who can make any use of it.

Same as the Skyhammer Annihilation Force, the Drop Pods have First the Fire Then the Blade, but the Drop Pods cannot make use of them since they are not Devastator Squads or Assault Squads.

I can (sort of) Back Christoph up. Sort of because he is half right.

Command Benefits, BRB, under Detachment rules:

This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment.

So Command Benefits only apply to the models that they apply to.

However his example of the Skyhammer is completely correct:
Angels of Death, Forces of the Space Marines page, Formations says:

Each Formation grants the units within it powerful bonuses, which can really enhance their effectiveness on the battlefield.

So Formation Benefits and Special rules are granted to all units/models, only some of which may actually be able to make use of those rules.

Objective Secured in a CAD only applies to troops. Objective Secured from a Battle Demi Company applies to all units

Strike Force Ultra has the rule "Fury of the Storm", The Storm Raven Gunship(for example) gains the rule; but only Terminators can make any use of it.