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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Denison, Iowa

The last Tau Codex was definitely a "quick fix" codex that simply added a few units and changed a couple options. However I believe that it made the army, as a whole, significantly more diverse and more enjoyable.

What armies out there could also do with the "quick fix" treatment, and which ones simply need a complete overhaul?

As for the complete overhauls, I'd say Imperial Guard, Orks, and Chaos Marines are the prime candidates. Technically I'd put Tyranids here too, but really, if you just reprint their codex to include all the "extras" like the drop pod, new creatures, new Zoanthrope options, etc. this would almost make them playable.




For codex's that I'd like to see updated soon-ish with the "quick fix" method (mostly as gap-fillers in the release schedule) I'd like to see Grey Knights and Blood Angels, or indeed any marine army that had yet to have the "dreadnought update". As a note with Grey Knights, would anyone else like to see all Grey Knights characters have access to the special weapons? Having an extra psycannon or psylancer in a squad might be enough to boost them in power (plus this was a classic option in the original Daemon Hunters Codex).
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran




Canada

orks, imperial guard, tyranids, sisters, inquisition, MT's: total overhaul needed

DE, blood angels, imperial knights: quick fix is viable

DA army: 3500pts,
admech army: 600pts
ravenguard: 565 pts

 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut






All armies can be fixed by a quick fix, by just rebalancing the points in an errata and only changing a few rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/16 22:44:10


Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Some armies legitimately could be fixed pretty quickly. E.g., the Eldar army is basically balanced, except for a few outliers. Change the 295 points cost for the wraithknight to 400 points, change eldar bikes to 1 heavy weapon in 3, revise warp spiders slightly, and you've got a basically balanced army.

Some armies need much more substantial revisions. Orks, Tyrranids and Chaos Space Marines come to mind.

Some armies need to be completely rebuilt from the conceptual ground up. Tau comes to mind. The tau are hated for good reason.

What it comes down to, I think, is the following:

Some codices are basically balanced (both internally and externally) except for a few outliers. Minor revisions are needed for those.

Some codices have basically been left in the dust and no longer have rules comparable to other, similar units in other codices. There is no sense in which Chaos Space Marines have capabilities comparable to vanilla space marines for their points cost. Am I really to believe that ATSKNF and chapter tactics are only worth 1 point? Major revisions are needed.

Some codices are just so completely ill-fitted for non-apocalypse games that they need to be completely redone. They need to start from square 1 and start over. Keep the models; completely redo the rules.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/04/16 22:58:36


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Some armies legitimately could be fixed pretty quickly. E.g., the Eldar army is basically balanced, except for a few outliers. Change the 295 points cost for the wraithknight to 400 points, change scatter bikes to 1 heavy weapon in 3 and you've got a basically balanced army.


Nope. The Eldar is a Deli filled with Cheese. Very few units are balanced to the rest of the game. Wraith Knights, Scatter Bikers (even without the Scatter laser), Warp Spiders, Wraith Guard, Special Characters, there is more cheese in that codex then in a grilled cheese sandwich.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





SemperMortis wrote:Nope. The Eldar is a Deli filled with Cheese. Very few units are balanced to the rest of the game. Wraith Knights, Scatter Bikers (even without the Scatter laser), Warp Spiders, Wraith Guard, Special Characters, there is more cheese in that codex then in a grilled cheese sandwich.


I keep hearing this claim about wraithguard. I just don't see it. I'll start a different thread about it.

At any rate, if you want another example, I could point to Necrons.

A few minor revisions could be made, but the codex is mostly good as is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/16 23:00:02


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut






The inballance is just the result of mismatching point efficiencies due to special rules and free stuff stacking in the other armies. Most special rules aren't bad as long as they pay for it. If they don't then we just have to reduce the point cost of the other armies, to rebalance it all out

Lets take the ork army for example. Here is my quick fix. ( note it isn't play tested or anything this is just that a quickly written down quick fix)

Ork Equipment:
Powerklaw 10 pts
Killsaw 15 pts
Warbike: 10 pts
Mega armour: 25 Pts

HQs
Painboy 30pts
Big mek 20 pts
Weirdboy 30 points ( + add a formation of weirdboyz)

Elites:
Burna boyz 10 pts
Kommando's 7 pts
Mega nobz 30 pts
Nobz 12 points

Troops:
Boyz 3 points Shoota upgrade 2 pts
Grots 2 points Runtherd 4 points

fast
deffkopta 18pts unit size 1-20
trucks 20 pts
warbuggies 15 pts.
Storm boyz 8 points

Battle wagon 50 points
Deff dread 40 points
Kanz 25 points
Nauts 150 points
Looted wagon 25 pts (and dedicated transport)
Flash gits 12 points
Stompa 350 points

This is a Quick fix that could fit on one page of a whte dwarf and it would make orks able to play with the big boyz even without having aces to all the powerful rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/16 23:36:38


Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while 
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

I think most, if not all, could be fixed with a quick fix. Tyranids and CSM being the hardest.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I don't think there is a quick fix for BA. BA have no mcs, no good way to kill mcs, and meqs in general are just bad.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there is a quick fix for BA. BA have no mcs, no good way to kill mcs, and meqs in general are just bad.


The "quick fix" is to fix everything else that's not BA.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Grav-Cannon for BA would be fine.

And MC not having busted rules to begin with.

YMDC = nightmare 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





BA are easy eneugh to fix, give em access to grav weapons. bring any outlier stats in line with codex Space Marines.


Chaos I think needs a complete re-work, points cost adjustments, tweeks to current units (it occurs to me given the fluff, we should be able to aquire infiltrate on cultists)
as well as some new units that could synergize nicely with that chaos has. (there's a 20 man open topped rhino that was shown to be in use in the heresy, given chaos that and chaos would suddenly be a LOT better)

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




BrianDavion wrote:
BA are easy eneugh to fix, give em access to grav weapons. bring any outlier stats in line with codex Space Marines.


Chaos I think needs a complete re-work, points cost adjustments, tweeks to current units (it occurs to me given the fluff, we should be able to aquire infiltrate on cultists)
as well as some new units that could synergize nicely with that chaos has. (there's a 20 man open topped rhino that was shown to be in use in the heresy, given chaos that and chaos would suddenly be a LOT better)


They would still suck, though. That's the problem. BA have literally none of the units and/or formations that make SM and SW good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/17 00:53:01


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Martel732 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
BA are easy eneugh to fix, give em access to grav weapons. bring any outlier stats in line with codex Space Marines.


Chaos I think needs a complete re-work, points cost adjustments, tweeks to current units (it occurs to me given the fluff, we should be able to aquire infiltrate on cultists)
as well as some new units that could synergize nicely with that chaos has. (there's a 20 man open topped rhino that was shown to be in use in the heresy, given chaos that and chaos would suddenly be a LOT better)


They would still suck, though. That's the problem. BA have literally none of the units and/or formations that make SM and SW good.


well keep in mind that formations are the one thing GW's been adding in these "quick fix reprints"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut






Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there is a quick fix for BA. BA have no mcs, no good way to kill mcs, and meqs in general are just bad.



....

BA can be fixed in less then 100 words. Seriously fixing marine equivalent armies is one of the simplest things to do.

Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 oldzoggy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there is a quick fix for BA. BA have no mcs, no good way to kill mcs, and meqs in general are just bad.



....

BA can be fixed in less then 100 words. Seriously fixing marine equivalent armies is one of the simplest things to do.


Ok. Do it. Provide those 99 words or less. I await your great 40k wisdom in this regard.

Not much sarcasm intended even.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/17 07:24:23


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Traditio wrote:
 oldzoggy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I don't think there is a quick fix for BA. BA have no mcs, no good way to kill mcs, and meqs in general are just bad.





....

BA can be fixed in less then 100 words. Seriously fixing marine equivalent armies is one of the simplest things to do.


Ok. Do it. Provide those 99 words or less. I await your great 40k wisdom in this regard.

Not much sarcasm intended even.



I can do it in a lot less then 99 words.

Give Blood Angels the same rules as Vanilla Marines, Give them back the Old 4th Edition rules and boom, done.

*Drops Mic, Walks off stage.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

Not 100 words, but, whenever they redo the Marine book again (so next year, at this rate :p)

Codex: Blood Angels is now considered Codex: Space Marines for all Rules purposes. Any Formation with the Blood Angels faction are now considered part of the Codex: Space Marines faction.

Codex: Blood Angels is replaced by the Codex: Space Marines book. New chapter tactics have been added:

Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels

Black Rage: Blood Angels models gain the Furious Charge Special Rule. In addition, on the first round of combat in which they charged, they gain +1 initiative.

Descent of Angels: All Deep Striking Blood Angels models only roll 1d6 for their scatter dice.

Chapter Tactics: Flesh Tearers

Black Rage: See Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels

Rip and Tear!: Flesh Tearers models gain the Rage and Rampage special rules.

Honor Guard gain the option to take Jump Packs for (price per model).

Honor Guard may take wrist mounted Stormbolters in place of their Boltguns for (points per model)

All Chapters now have access to Librarian Dreadnoughts.

Venerable Dreadnoughts and Dreadnoughts have access to Dreadnought pattern Lightning Claws. (S:user AP2 Melee, Shred, specialist weapon)

Master Apothecary is a new HQ choice for Codex: Space Marines.

Predators gain the option to take Turret mounted Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Flamestorm Cannon, and sponson mounted Heavy Flamers.

All Vehicles may take Over Charged Engines for (points)

(Aside: fluff could be that after the Baal campaign against the Tyranids, the Blood Angels decide the time has come to end the separation between the Mechanicum and themselves; thus, the vehicle technology spreads to all chapters)

Death Company are a choice for Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers chapter tactics only. (Like Crusader Squads)

Blood Angels and Flesh Tearer characters are added into Codex: Space Marines with appropriate Chapter Tactics.


There would be some dilution of 'unique' Blood Angels but the heart would still be there while gaining everything from the Codex proper. And it would enable some chapters that should have certain things (Raven Guard and jump pack Honor Guards, for example), so everyone wins, Imo.

Then again, I'm one of those people that thinks they should just recombine DA and BA into Codex: Space Marines, since they are about as close to codex adherent as Chapters like White Scars and Salamanders.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut






All scouts are WS/BS 4
All dreadnoughts get +2 attacks to their profile
Add disintegrator gun to the special Weapons list
Add assault ramps to the Blood Angels Vehicle Equipment list.
Heavy flamers on Dreads and Landspeeders get gain Torrent.
Add to Landraiders upgrades: personal void shield generator and Enhanced Ferromantic Rites
Blood angels get a +1 to cast on the Sanguinary discipline
SANGUINARY PRIESTs don't take up a HQ slot
BA units joined by SANGUINOR can assault from deepstrike
SANGUINARY GUARD gain hymms to the emperror
Mephiston casts on a 3+
Remove unwieldy form The Executioner’s Axe

100 words. You see buffing an army to the point that they suddenly become just as nasty as the big top armies isn't that hard.


This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/04/17 09:46:50


Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

The Adepta Sororitas Codex update could be done with a "quick Fix" - they even have a the cool new artwork already done from Leviathan............

It just needs a few more choices - Palatine as well as Canoness,
Tweek some units - Celestians, Penitent Engines in a particular.
Throw in the usual OP formations.
A couple of named mortal Sisters characters would be good - Magda Grace would work well.
Give the Exorcist access to anti-air missiles
Confirm that characters can take more than one relic - like Astartes.
Really cool would be Order specific Relics and "Chapter Tactics"

More importantly it needs new plastic models...........

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/17 09:35:38


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut






BrianDavion wrote:
BA are easy eneugh to fix, give em access to grav weapons.


They already have grav weapons

Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while 
   
Made in es
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Until the base game gets a significant rewrite in order to adress some of its core issues, any kind of "quick fix" to the armies will be akin to applying a human-sized bandage to a giant's arm. That said, if someone asked me about some quick fixes to CSM... well I wouldn't know where to start, but here's some tips:

- Legion rules back.
- Lieutenants back.
- Chaos Boon table goes down the gutter, the old daemonic rewards are back. Daemon Prince goes down the gutter as a default HQ choice, and goes back to a mandatory consequence of going over a certain amount of daemon boons points-wise.
- VotLW rule grants Hatred: IoM plus a veteran skill of choice.
- Chosen and Termies get WS5 and 2 wounds. Chosen get one veteran skill of choice. Termies count as having two Ccw at close combat (so the chainswords attached to their combi-weapons count for something). Points costs adjusted accordingly.
- Rhinos get the option of becoming open-topped.
- Warp Talons become useful somewhat, either a points drop, or being able to charge after arriving via deep-strike, or something. Perhaps could have the ability to go back to Reserves at any given moment if they pass a Ld check.
- The armoury is given some flavour. Daemon weapons, Kai guns, Daemon shields (+1 to Invul saves, with god-specific variants), Warp-infused ammo, etc.

Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.

GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get. 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Denver, CO, USA

 Mr Morden wrote:
The Adepta Sororitas Codex update could be done with a "quick Fix" - they even have a the cool new artwork already done from Leviathan............

It just needs a few more choices - Palatine as well as Canoness,
Tweek some units - Celestians, Penitent Engines in a particular.
Throw in the usual OP formations.
A couple of named mortal Sisters characters would be good - Magda Grace would work well.
Give the Exorcist access to anti-air missiles
Confirm that characters can take more than one relic - like Astartes.
Really cool would be Order specific Relics and "Chapter Tactics"

More importantly it needs new plastic models...........


The Sisters are very playable in this edition, but I agree, making Penitent Engines worth playing and adding AA Exos would go a long way. I think the Apocalypse formation special rules would do much of what is needed to make lackluster units competitive: rerollable FNP for Repentia, IWND for Pentitent Engines, Turn 1 DS for Seraphim, Torrent flamers for Retributers-- just rework the formation requirements and restrictions for play in smaller games. Celestians need something to make them worth using, maybe just a second AoF to make them shooty as well as choppy. Bring in the AV 13 Repressor from Forge World as a Rhino upgrade kit, and I think you'd have a very competitive army without having to abandon the flavor or the mid-ranged shooting niche. And of course, plastic models... my army has worn out an entire set of Dremel bits.


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 oldzoggy wrote:
All scouts are WS/BS 4
All dreadnoughts get +2 attacks to their profile
Add disintegrator gun to the special Weapons list
Add assault ramps to the Blood Angels Vehicle Equipment list.
Heavy flamers on Dreads and Landspeeders get gain Torrent.
Add to Landraiders upgrades: personal void shield generator and Enhanced Ferromantic Rites
Blood angels get a +1 to cast on the Sanguinary discipline
SANGUINARY PRIESTs don't take up a HQ slot
BA units joined by SANGUINOR can assault from deepstrike
SANGUINARY GUARD gain hymms to the emperror
Mephiston casts on a 3+
Remove unwieldy form The Executioner’s Axe

100 words. You see buffing an army to the point that they suddenly become just as nasty as the big top armies isn't that hard.




This army still gets run over by TWC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/17 15:12:39


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut






Martel732 wrote:
This army still gets run over by TWC


A I get it now you want that kind of "FIX"

Don't worry that can also been done in a quick fix.
Let me introduce you to the "BA auto win detachment"

Required: 1HQ, 1Elite, 1Fast
Optional 5HQ, 6Troop, 6Fast, 6 Heavy, 6 Low
Restriction BA only
All models in this detachment get
- an extra close combat weapon for free.
- +2 I
- objective secured
Sanguinary priest and land raiders are a free upgrade for infantry squads with 10+ models.
Assault terminators can re roll all their saves and Inv saves.
All power weapons are gain Instant death and all successfully inv saves have to be re rolled against them.
All flamers gain torrent.
All Melta weapons are assault 3
Rhino's gain the assault vehicle rule

There you have it a quick fix of 99 words is more then enough to turn your army into a complete OP nightmare. Now stop complaining. Your army isn't beyond saving, it is just not in the best of shape and your expectations are unrealistic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/17 16:23:12


Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




You had to go to that length because ba can only field meqs and meqs are bad in general. We can field a limited number of bikers i suppose.

My point is that it's almost impossible to make assault meq viable at this point. Your rather unreasonable fixes show this.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut






Martel732 wrote:
You had to go to that length because ba can only field meqs and meqs are bad in general. We can field a limited number of bikers i suppose.

My point is that it's almost impossible to make assault meq viable at this point. Your rather unreasonable fixes show this.


No I didn't had to I just wanted to shut you up.
[Edit]I realize now that Add to Ignore would be a faster way to solve this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/17 16:48:36


Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

maybe reprint the CSM 3.5 codex for chaos 7.5?

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 oldzoggy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You had to go to that length because ba can only field meqs and meqs are bad in general. We can field a limited number of bikers i suppose.

My point is that it's almost impossible to make assault meq viable at this point. Your rather unreasonable fixes show this.


No I didn't had to I just wanted to shut you up.
[Edit]I realize now that Add to Ignore would be a faster way to solve this.


Please do so.
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

Martel732 wrote:
You had to go to that length because ba can only field meqs and meqs are bad in general. We can field a limited number of bikers i suppose.

My point is that it's almost impossible to make assault meq viable at this point. Your rather unreasonable fixes show this.

Blood Angels are not dedicated assault specialists.
They are still Marines, which makes the majority of their army still generalists, just like all other Loyalist Marines, bar Space Puppies. (because they don't hold to the Codex Astartes, while the Blood Angels actually do!)

Blood Angels simply have more individual units who are themselves assault specialists, such as Death Company & the various Furiosos.

If you want true melee MEQ specialists, then go play Khorne, or Black Templars, or Carcharadons or even just Chaos in general.

The ONLY thing that BA's need to 'fix' them, is to get the latest up-to-date 'Loyalist standards' applied to them, including;
- A4 Dreadnoughts
- WS4/BS4 Scouts, and access to the Land Speeder Storm.
- Grav cannon access.
- Vehicle squadrons.
- The two newer AA tanks
- Storm Talons
- Librarian Conclave
- Their own version of the standard Gladius/Lion's Blade detachment.

Going BA's means you trade out things like Thunderfire cannons & Centurions for Death Company, Furiosos & Baal Preds, while Sang Guard are replacements for more traditional Honour Guard.
Overall though, BA's are the 'uncontrolled assault marines', whereas Ravenguard are the 'sneaky assault marines'. Hence why BA's get army-wide Furious Charge. In the end though, no Blood Angel marine outside of a Death Company member or 1st company veteran is even close to an equalwhen compared to the likes of Khornate chaos marine. (let alone a damned Berserker - who BA's currently fight pretty much on par with btw, despite the 'Zerker costing at least 25% more...)

 
   
 
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