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SemperMortis wrote:This is rather true, Tradito tends to roll on topics like this and then deny any argument by saying they don't count because they don't fit his narrative. Kind of reminds me of a guy who used to troll this forum a lot, I am blanking on his name, but he was a rabid Eldar Supporter.

Except, I didn't say anything of the sort.

I've "denied" the arguments listed above for the following reasons:

1. Because those "similar" units aren't really similar enough to count.

2. Because a consideration of A + B is not a consideration of A alone and by itself.

3. Because it's not really an argument in the first place. "They have d-weapons!" So what?

That said, if you have further arguments, I would be more than willing to address them.

As far as those short falls, no infantry in the game (I mean infantry not troops, because Eldar have scat bike troops) is better off for a similar price, hell even the elites infantry in most armies can't compete. Terminators and meganobz are garbage in comparison.

"Better off"? In what respect? My sternguard are 10 points cheaper than wraithguard without d-scythes and have up to 18 additional inches of range.

Terminators have 5+ invulns and the ability to deepstrike, as well as power fists and stormbolters.

Meganobs are highly effective in close combat.

The simple fact is that all of these comparisons are doomed to fail because there's too many differences between the things being compared.

The best way to assess whether or not they are OP is to look at how they do on the table top.

You've mentioned one case where you've actually played them, and fact is, you made a strategic error. Instead of charging the wraithguard (which is what orks are good at), you chose to try to shoot them off the table. With orks.

Because, for some reason, you didn't want your boys to die. Because every ork life is precious, apparently.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It doesn't matter if they're weak to MSU, because Scatterbikes can kill anything else.

Yes. I completely agree with this.

But that's an argument for scatter bikes being OP, not wraithguard.

When you play against a competitive eldar list, EVERYTHING looks OP, because the Eldar have lots of OP cheese to play with, and even the stuff that isn't OP synergizes really well with the cheese. It's an army of specialists.

But when we are considering whether a given UNIT or MODEL is OP, we can't look at Eldar as a whole. We have to look at that unit considered by itself.

And I would take that unit in a heartbeat over any Sternguard with a Combi-Weapon.

I'm pretty sure if anyone had the option to switch out those stats and equipment, they would.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And I would take that unit in a heartbeat over any Sternguard with a Combi-Weapon.

I'm pretty sure if anyone had the option to switch out those stats and equipment, they would.

Ok. You play marines, right?

Let's suppose you were offered a deal:

All of your long range options in the codex are gone. No missile launchers, plasma cannons, lascannons, etc. for you. But you can take wraithguard now.

No wave serpents, even. Just wraithguard. You can stick them in rhinos.

You taking that deal?

I wouldn't, but only because marines don't have good models to carry the unit (Drop Pods leave them vulnerable, rhinoes aren't fast enough, can't fit in razorbacks, LRs are too expensive) and marines don't have the MSU counters that eldar do, which is the main weakness with wraithguard.

tradito can you please be honest with yourself? Eldar is very over powered.

You want to talk how well they do on the table top? just watch any battle report with them in it. Most likey they win. They may lose some here and their but i dont even have to use statistics to prove how over powered Eldar are.

Grief wrote:
tradito can you please be honest with yourself? Eldar is very over powered.

You want to talk how well they do on the table top? just watch any battle report with them in it. Most likey they win. They may lose some here and their but i dont even have to use statistics to prove how over powered Eldar are.

Grief: my comments are not about Eldar in general. My comments are specifically about wraithguard. Not about wraithguard + scatter bikes + wraithknights. Not about wraithguard + dark eldar.

Just wraithguard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:
I wouldn't, but only because marines don't have good models to carry the unit (Drop Pods leave them vulnerable, rhinoes aren't fast enough, can't fit in razorbacks, LRs are too expensive) and marines don't have the MSU counters that eldar do, which is the main weakness with wraithguard.

Yes. Consider the following thought experiment:

Tomorrow, GW releases a new codex. Windrider bikes are an additional 5 ppm and can only take 1 heavy weapon per 3 bikes.

Wraithknights now cost 450 ppm without upgrades.

Wraithguard, and everything else, are left exactly as they are.

Furthermore, 8th edition comes out tomorrow. Everything is the same, except allies aren't allowed.

How much complaining about wraithguard do you think there would be after that?

Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And I would take that unit in a heartbeat over any Sternguard with a Combi-Weapon.

I'm pretty sure if anyone had the option to switch out those stats and equipment, they would.

Ok. You play marines, right?

Let's suppose you were offered a deal:

All of your long range options in the codex are gone. No missile launchers, plasma cannons, lascannons, etc. for you. But you can take wraithguard now.

No wave serpents, even. Just wraithguard. You can stick them in rhinos.

You taking that deal?

Seeing as Lascannons. Plasma Cannons, and Missile Launchers are all terrible, I'm gladly taking that deal.

Slayer-Fan wrote:Seeing as Lascannons. Plasma Cannons, and Missile Launchers are all terrible, I'm gladly taking that deal.

You'd take wraithguard cruising around in rhinos over devastators or centurion devastators with heavy weapons?

Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And I would take that unit in a heartbeat over any Sternguard with a Combi-Weapon.

I'm pretty sure if anyone had the option to switch out those stats and equipment, they would.

Ok. You play marines, right?

Let's suppose you were offered a deal:

All of your long range options in the codex are gone. No missile launchers, plasma cannons, lascannons, etc. for you. But you can take wraithguard now.

No wave serpents, even. Just wraithguard. You can stick them in rhinos.

You taking that deal?

So give up all your armies abilities and weapons to swap a single unit for a single unit, that is kind of a fethed up deal. Another way to put it without being ridiculous would be Switch Wraithguard with Stern Guard. Eldar get sternguard now and Marines get Wraithguard. If I played Marines I would jump for joy.

Lets do the ork version of this, I would gladly trade Meganobz for WraithGuard. Done deal.

Ohh and lets address this nonsense while we are at it.

"Better off"? In what respect? My sternguard are 10 points cheaper than wraithguard without d-scythes and have up to 18 additional inches of range.
Terminators have 5+ invulns and the ability to deepstrike, as well as power fists and stormbolters.
Meganobs are highly effective in close combat.
The simple fact is that all of these comparisons are doomed to fail because there's too many differences between the things being compared.
The best way to assess whether or not they are OP is to look at how they do on the table top.
You've mentioned one case where you've actually played them, and fact is, you made a strategic error. Instead of charging the wraithguard (which is what orks are good at), you chose to try to shoot them off the table. With orks.
Because, for some reason, you didn't want your boys to die. Because every ork life is precious, apparently.

Sternguard are also -2T and can't kill a Superheavy in a single turn unless they all have meltas and get really luck rolls. And as far as range is concerned? Who cares? I will take a D strength flamer or single shot weapon over a S4 rapid fire bolter at 24inches any day of the week, this is a very poor argument.

Terminators have a 5++ Oooooo! And they have powerfists and stormbolters...again OoooOO! Stormbolters are just two bolters and they aren't any better for it. The only thing Terminators have going for them is the powerfist and then its meh because the Marines don't have a delivery system of any sort for those units. Trust Me, When I play against SM i get excited when I see those terminators come out, it means easy kill points.

Meganobz are "Highly Effective" in close combat? really? against who? The only units Meganobz are good at killing are units that aren't good at CC. Anytime they run into a Powerfist or equivalent they die horribly because they usually get doubled out. You want to talk about maneuverability/speed problems, talk about these guys, they can't even run or sweeping advance when they do win an assault. They are just Nobz in 2+ armor, not a big deal.

Comparisons aren't similar? Wraithguard go after highly valuable units and destroy them, Sternguard do the exact same thing, Meganobz do the exact same thing.

Well generally speaking I don't throw away models uselessly on the table for no benefit. Boyz on the charge are wounding Wraith Guard on 6s and only hitting on 4s. So if I charged with 10 boyz im going to get 5 D flamers hitting me with wall of death. so thats 10 wounds, boom the unit is dead. Good job.

I really don't see a point in throwing away a unit just to soak up over watch so that if by some miracle I have a 2nd unit close by they can assault it and maybe kill 2-3 models.

Traditio wrote:


When you play against a competitive eldar list, EVERYTHING looks OP, because the Eldar have lots of OP cheese to play with, and even the stuff that isn't OP synergizes really well with the cheese. It's an army of specialists.

But when we are considering whether a given UNIT or MODEL is OP, we can't look at Eldar as a whole. We have to look at that unit considered by itself.

Completely and utterly false. Its an army of generalists whose abilities are so good that they are better than specialists of any other army. Just take a look at your humble scatbikes. They are best at movement, survival, shooting high AP, shooting low AP, shooting vehicles. Even your more "humble" units like warp spiders, they have the exact same advantages, very survivable, great movement, great at shooting both high and low AP, great at shooting vehicles. Fire dragons, again, extremely survivable, great at destroying low AP and vehicles. Wraithlords are great at shooting low AP, vehicles and assault. Extremely survivable, because its a MC, not a walker.

That eldar is a glass-cannon scapel is a myth which never has been true. If there's any way to describe them, they're the ultimate mary-sue army, great at everything with no downsides.

It is extremely silly not to consider a unit with the rest of the army. You're not going to use fire dragons without transports. You're not going to use tyranids without sypnapse creatures. Of course if a unit is OP because of synergy with its army is OP.

Ok, so how do you point-balance based on synergy? Certainly they are somewhat under costed, but alone they are not overly so, even with a wave serpent.

Also, Eldar ARE a specialist army, though you are correct in that they are not glass cannons. Almost every model (Bar Scatbikes, Knights and BS5 spider spam) is good at one job. Every unit is a specialist, ergo an army of specialists. Swooping hawks are a rapid-response unit that can deal ok-damage on the drop and are good at killing vehicles, but have gakky guns for their cost and have no way to kill MCs, Fire Dragons are the ultimate melta-cide unit, Wraithguard are similar but are generally better against MCs in comparison, Banshees are a fast melee unit that tears through light infantry and are great for starting a charge, Striking Scorpions are a precision melee unit that kills a specific high-priority target, ect ect. The few super chedder generalist units do not make the rest any less specialized, just fill the gaps that those units create too easily.

 Swampmist wrote:
Ok, so how do you point-balance based on synergy? Certainly they are somewhat under costed, but alone they are not overly so, even with a wave serpent.

Also, Eldar ARE a specialist army, though you are correct in that they are not glass cannons. Almost every model (Bar Scatbikes, Knights and BS5 spider spam) is good at one job. Every unit is a specialist, ergo an army of specialists. Swooping hawks are a rapid-response unit that can deal ok-damage on the drop and are good at killing vehicles, but have gakky guns for their cost and have no way to kill MCs, Fire Dragons are the ultimate melta-cide unit, Wraithguard are similar but are generally better against MCs in comparison, Banshees are a fast melee unit that tears through light infantry and are great for starting a charge, Striking Scorpions are a precision melee unit that kills a specific high-priority target, ect ect. The few super chedder generalist units do not make the rest any less specialized, just fill the gaps that those units create too easily.

Don't ask me how to point balance, ask GW. Doubling the points for everything in the eldar codex is a good starting point.

Eldar are a special-snowflake generalist army, that take extremely little finesse to play. Ignoring scatbikes and WK, the simple combination of warp spiders and fire dragons can deal with everything in the game. or wraithguards and swooping hawks, etc. No army in the entire game, other than eldar, can take 2 units, and hard-counter every single unit type in the game, along with being extremely resilient.

kburn wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Ok, so how do you point-balance based on synergy? Certainly they are somewhat under costed, but alone they are not overly so, even with a wave serpent.

Also, Eldar ARE a specialist army, though you are correct in that they are not glass cannons. Almost every model (Bar Scatbikes, Knights and BS5 spider spam) is good at one job. Every unit is a specialist, ergo an army of specialists. Swooping hawks are a rapid-response unit that can deal ok-damage on the drop and are good at killing vehicles, but have gakky guns for their cost and have no way to kill MCs, Fire Dragons are the ultimate melta-cide unit, Wraithguard are similar but are generally better against MCs in comparison, Banshees are a fast melee unit that tears through light infantry and are great for starting a charge, Striking Scorpions are a precision melee unit that kills a specific high-priority target, ect ect. The few super chedder generalist units do not make the rest any less specialized, just fill the gaps that those units create too easily.

Don't ask me how to point balance, ask GW. Doubling the points for everything in the eldar codex is a good starting point.

Eldar are a special-snowflake generalist army, that take extremely little finesse to play. Ignoring scatbikes and WK, the simple combination of warp spiders and fire dragons can deal with everything in the game. or wraithguards and swooping hawks, etc. No army in the entire game, other than eldar, can take 2 units, and hard-counter every single unit type in the game, along with being extremely resilient.

Then those armies need 2 git gud.. Not joking don't blame eldar players, blame gw

kburn wrote:
Ok, so how do you point-balance based on synergy? Certainly they are somewhat under costed, but alone they are not overly so, even with a wave serpent.


>Don't ask me how to point balance, ask GW.

> Doubling the points for everything in the eldar codex is a good starting point.

> No army in the entire game, other than eldar, can take 2 units, and hard-counter every single unit type in the game, along with being extremely resilient.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Grumblewartz wrote:
People should really stop buying into the OP's posts. Almost everyone of them is trolling using the same tired formula. He says X (unit/army/formation that is obviously at the very least quite powerful) isn't actually that great. Then he proceeds to ignore every rational response (Webway portals + wraitguard don't count because reasons, etc.) that calls him out on the ludicrous statement that began the post.

This is rather true, Tradito tends to roll on topics like this and then deny any argument by saying they don't count because they don't fit his narrative. Kind of reminds me of a guy who used to troll this forum a lot, I am blanking on his name, but he was a rabid Eldar Supporter.

Anyway, onto this response

Wraithguard are definitely good, but not broken or overpowered. They hit like a truck as they should, but have maneuverability and surviveability issues you have to overcome for them to have any hopes of even making use of their weaponry. I've used them extensively. Wraith constructs are my favourite models and the only one that is OP is the Wraithknight. Not so much because the model itself, but more so because he is a gargantuan creature.

They do have maneuverability issues, because they are infantry not bikes or vehicles or flyers. So that is kind of common sense, not really a downside.

Survive ability? They are T6 with a 3+ armor save, they are extremely survivable except against above average guns. The basic weapon in this game is still a S4 weapon (IE Shootas, Bolters and such) Those weapons only wound on 6s. Tau firewarriors can wound on 5s which is a bit better.

As far as those short falls, no infantry in the game (I mean infantry not troops, because Eldar have scat bike troops) is better off for a similar price, hell even the elites infantry in most armies can't compete. Terminators and meganobz are garbage in comparison.

The fact alone that they are slow, instantly disqualifies them from being 'OP'. Also a single wound T6 3+ model means next to nothing nowadays.

LinkXx wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Grumblewartz wrote:
People should really stop buying into the OP's posts. Almost everyone of them is trolling using the same tired formula. He says X (unit/army/formation that is obviously at the very least quite powerful) isn't actually that great. Then he proceeds to ignore every rational response (Webway portals + wraitguard don't count because reasons, etc.) that calls him out on the ludicrous statement that began the post.

This is rather true, Tradito tends to roll on topics like this and then deny any argument by saying they don't count because they don't fit his narrative. Kind of reminds me of a guy who used to troll this forum a lot, I am blanking on his name, but he was a rabid Eldar Supporter.

Anyway, onto this response

Wraithguard are definitely good, but not broken or overpowered. They hit like a truck as they should, but have maneuverability and surviveability issues you have to overcome for them to have any hopes of even making use of their weaponry. I've used them extensively. Wraith constructs are my favourite models and the only one that is OP is the Wraithknight. Not so much because the model itself, but more so because he is a gargantuan creature.

They do have maneuverability issues, because they are infantry not bikes or vehicles or flyers. So that is kind of common sense, not really a downside.

Survive ability? They are T6 with a 3+ armor save, they are extremely survivable except against above average guns. The basic weapon in this game is still a S4 weapon (IE Shootas, Bolters and such) Those weapons only wound on 6s. Tau firewarriors can wound on 5s which is a bit better.

As far as those short falls, no infantry in the game (I mean infantry not troops, because Eldar have scat bike troops) is better off for a similar price, hell even the elites infantry in most armies can't compete. Terminators and meganobz are garbage in comparison.

The fact alone that they are slow, instantly disqualifies them from being 'OP'. Also a single wound T6 3+ model means next to nothing nowadays.

So because it isn't the top level of cheese it isn't OP? Your argument doesn't make any sense.

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:This is rather true, Tradito tends to roll on topics like this and then deny any argument by saying they don't count because they don't fit his narrative. Kind of reminds me of a guy who used to troll this forum a lot, I am blanking on his name, but he was a rabid Eldar Supporter.

Except, I didn't say anything of the sort.

I've "denied" the arguments listed above for the following reasons:

1. Because those "similar" units aren't really similar enough to count.

Maybe you should define similar enough to count.
You'd be hard pressed to find an infantry unit that has a Str D flamer, especially one with a defensive stat line like Wraithguard. So if your requirements are strict, we aren't going to be able to compare anything here.
If you want a role (Transport requiring Short Ranged Shooty Unit) then there are many units we can compare it to, especially from marines (Sternguard being the obvious example). Which is why people are reaching for those units to compare.

Traditio wrote:

2. Because a consideration of A + B is not a consideration of A alone and by itself.

Technically this is true, but you never see Centurion Devs looked at in a vacuum. Without transports or a teleporter, they are pretty bad. With a Teleporter, they become one of the most OP units in the game, and can be ramped up from there pretty easily.
Are you going to suggest that Centurion Devs are a bad unit? You'll find that such an argument won't gain traction and flies in the face of most tournament lists and battle reports.
We can do this with several units. What is sternguard without pods or rhinos? What are fire dragons without a WS?

Units do not exist in a vacuum. This argument is pointless and synergies must be accounted for. By your metric, markerlights and psykers are mostly garbage, since we can only look at them and not how they interact with other units. Is that an argument you want to make?

Traditio wrote:

3. Because it's not really an argument in the first place. "They have d-weapons!" So what?

Look at the rules for D-weapons.
It gives a unit an ignores armor flame thrower that also is quite strong against tanks. They can point at any unit in the game and delete it, something only deathstars or cents can do normally. And cents are considered one of the best units in the game.
If guard had a guy who could teleport them and make them a bit tougher defensively, they would be the best unit in the game.

Traditio wrote:

That said, if you have further arguments, I would be more than willing to address them.

As far as those short falls, no infantry in the game (I mean infantry not troops, because Eldar have scat bike troops) is better off for a similar price, hell even the elites infantry in most armies can't compete. Terminators and meganobz are garbage in comparison.

"Better off"? In what respect? My sternguard are 10 points cheaper than wraithguard without d-scythes and have up to 18 additional inches of range.

Sternguard are much weaker defensively and also require a transport. Or they become very expensive bodies.
Sternguard are also not even close to applying the same level of damage that the WG can put down on the table. The additional range is only for the bolter, not for the melta which is what you need to target enemy tanks.
Seriously, compare sternguard against WG when shooting at TWC, Bikes, Cents, MCs, and Tanks. Make sure to keep the loadout the same.
You'll find WG outperform for the same points in nearly every situation, if only because flamers that ignore armor cause a ton of hits/wounds for the point cost.

Traditio wrote:

Terminators have 5+ invulns and the ability to deepstrike, as well as power fists and stormbolters.

Terminators are awful and have been for most of the game. Stormbolters are crap, powerfists are fine but they need a transport (and unlike a WG unit, a 200 point or greater transport that is relatively weak).

Traditio wrote:

Meganobs are highly effective in close combat.

No, they aren't. MCs and many units that are good in CC (TWC) just destroy them. They need a better save and some combos.
Charge Nobs into WG, the WG most likely destroy most of the unit before CC is reached. Remember, no additional units can be used because vacuum!

Traditio wrote:

The simple fact is that all of these comparisons are doomed to fail because there's too many differences between the things being compared.

Not really, you are just demanding an incredibly strict metric for unit comparisons that you haven't defended in any way.

Traditio wrote:

The best way to assess whether or not they are OP is to look at how they do on the table top.

WG do quite well on the TT. They aren't the best unit in the dex, but they are certainly quite strong. Its why they get complained about and, say, sternguard don't (anymore).


Also, please stop saying one Krak Missile destroys a WG.
It's a 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, possible 5+ cover save. It really takes 2 Krak missiles to destroy 1 WG, and that is vastly more points for a marine player to use. ML aren't even popular. A plasma cannon also will require about 2 shots to kill one unless your opponent doesn't know how to play this game.

LinkXx wrote:


The fact alone that they are slow, instantly disqualifies them from being 'OP'. Also a single wound T6 3+ model means next to nothing nowadays.

Shush you're ruining dakkas anti eldar narrative!

Seriously though, this is the saddest thread I've ever seen, if you cant deal with wraithguard you have massive problems with how you approach the game and fail at the most rudimentary of tactics. Dakkas ignorance is on display here and proof that most of these people either don't play the game or are utterly terrible at it.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:

LinkXx wrote:


The fact alone that they are slow, instantly disqualifies them from being 'OP'. Also a single wound T6 3+ model means next to nothing nowadays.

Shush you're ruining dakkas anti eldar narrative!

Seriously though, this is the saddest thread I've ever seen, if you cant deal with wraithguard you have massive problems with how you approach the game and fail at the most rudimentary of tactics. Dakkas ignorance is on display here and proof that most of these people either don't play the game or are utterly terrible at it.

Really appreciate the detailed post where you clearly go into how to deal with wraithguard being deployed from a WWP, a open topped transport, or WS rather than insulting everyone else

That being said, to discuss the post you quoted and how it "destroys the narrative"...
Centurions on their own are slow. Are you saying centurions are a weak not OP unit? The poster did say that alone disqualifies them, and we can only assume he meant in a vacuum, since the transports available to the WG are quite fast, so let's not bring additional units into this unless you are willing to admit that WG speed isn't as big a deal as everyone is making it out to be.

As for the second part, a scat bike is a single model with a T4 3+ save. Are we to assume they also mean next to nothing?

Face it, the post you quoted lacks any of the nuance or discussion required to decide if a unit is OP. Even units like the Riptide and WK have several factors that add up to them being OP. Units like the cents, which require synergy with characters, require an even greater degree of discussion but are still quite OP. The gladius strike force, a very competitive list, looks abysmal if you compare it in a vacuum where one unit from that list is compared to a typical eldar unit. But we know that isn't the case.


I don't think anyone is saying that the WG are the best unit in the dex. We can all agree that Scatbikes, WK, and Spiders seem to be the best of the best. But in any list that can transport them effectively, WG would see a lot of use. I'd love them in my CSM list, and they don't even have great transport options.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:

LinkXx wrote:


The fact alone that they are slow, instantly disqualifies them from being 'OP'. Also a single wound T6 3+ model means next to nothing nowadays.

Shush you're ruining dakkas anti eldar narrative!

Seriously though, this is the saddest thread I've ever seen, if you cant deal with wraithguard you have massive problems with how you approach the game and fail at the most rudimentary of tactics. Dakkas ignorance is on display here and proof that most of these people either don't play the game or are utterly terrible at it.

How do you stop no scatter DS then?

 Mechanical Crow wrote:

LinkXx wrote:


The fact alone that they are slow, instantly disqualifies them from being 'OP'. Also a single wound T6 3+ model means next to nothing nowadays.

Shush you're ruining dakkas anti eldar narrative!

Seriously though, this is the saddest thread I've ever seen, if you cant deal with wraithguard you have massive problems with how you approach the game and fail at the most rudimentary of tactics. Dakkas ignorance is on display here and proof that most of these people either don't play the game or are utterly terrible at it.

I don't think they realise that a 3+ chance at 1d3 wounds is good, but not as game breaking as the new SPESS MURRENZ thanks to their new toys (again)

cosmicsoybean wrote:I don't think they realise that a 3+ chance at 1d3 wounds is good, but not as game breaking as the new SPESS MURRENZ thanks to their new toys (again)

What new toys? The librarius powers which imperfectly mimic what Eldar already have?

Or are you talking about the "limit one per army" 30th anniversary space marine with an 18 inch range gets hot gun?

Traditio wrote:

cosmicsoybean wrote:I don't think they realise that a 3+ chance at 1d3 wounds is good, but not as game breaking as the new SPESS MURRENZ thanks to their new toys (again)

What new toys? The librarius powers which imperfectly mimic what Eldar already have?

Or are you talking about the "limit one per army" 30th anniversary space marine with an 18 inch range gets hot gun?

Have you not seen the geokinesis and fulmination disciplines? Where via the Librarius Conclave you can have a pretty damn good chance (if not guaranteed with Tigurius) of getting a T1 charge against an enemy by moving units in terrain 24" anywhere they want? Or the "CHANGE PLACES!" psychic power from fulmination? For a SM fanboy, you don't know your stuff very well.

Traditio wrote:

cosmicsoybean wrote:I don't think they realise that a 3+ chance at 1d3 wounds is good, but not as game breaking as the new SPESS MURRENZ thanks to their new toys (again)

What new toys? The librarius powers which imperfectly mimic what Eldar already have?

Or are you talking about the "limit one per army" 30th anniversary space marine with an 18 inch range gets hot gun?

I don't know of any powers that the eldar have that let them move terrain, objectives, and units, teleport units 24", even in CC, let eldar buff their vehicles and buildings to/past av15, allow any unit to fire at people THEY CANT EVEN SEE, ability to nullify enemy mages completely, 4++ inv bubble of 12 inches... to name a few. That along with the 200+ products and 200+ forgeworld products they get compaired to any other faction.

Is there an Eldar player REALLY complaining about how much easier it got to charge their special snowflake Warp Spiders and Scatterbikes?
Based off an oddly specific power?

Whatever.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Is there an Eldar player REALLY complaining about how much easier it got to charge their special snowflake Warp Spiders and Scatterbikes?
Based off an oddly specific power?

Whatever.

Rerollable 2+ armour on eldar: OMG fething BROKEN ELDAR SO OP OMG!!!!!!!!!
Rerollable 2++ on marines: Perfectly okay, this is balanced!

It's an interesting situation, because marines can't even force enough saves to make Eldar need 2+ rerollable. 2+ rerollable is a legitimate defense against scatterbikes, as no other saves will do.

Martel732 wrote:

>marines can't even force enough saves to make Eldar need 2+ rerollable.

You're doing it wrong. grav cent pod towards jetbikes, destroy, pair that with their new phy powers and they dont worry about cover or worrying about retaliation.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

>marines can't even force enough saves to make Eldar need 2+ rerollable.

You're doing it wrong. grav cent pod towards jetbikes, destroy, pair that with their new phy powers and they dont worry about cover or worrying about retaliation.

A couple hundred points of cents plus libby and a pod to kill 81 points of scatbikes? There's someone doing something wrong here, but I don't think it's him.

Traditio wrote:

Ok. You play marines, right?

Let's suppose you were offered a deal:

All of your long range options in the codex are gone. No missile launchers, plasma cannons, lascannons, etc. for you. But you can take wraithguard now.

No wave serpents, even. Just wraithguard. You can stick them in rhinos.

You taking that deal?

I play Marines and I would definitely take that chance. The Marines heavy weapons suck compared to Grav Cannons because in this edition the number of shots and the moiblity is much better than range/strength (unless it's strength D because it has the ability to throw multiple wounds per single shot, up to 12 wounds on a hot roll), and Grav Cannons suck compared to D-Scythes, even with -1 on the D table.

I'll just stick them in a Land Raider or Stormraven and call it a day. I would even take 80 points Terminators if they had a D-Scythe instead of their Power Fist.

If you think losing the Missile Launchers is not worth it compared to gaining access to D-1, Ignores Cover, AP2 on a Template weapon, I'm not sure we're playing the same game.