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Traditio wrote:
P4P:

I've explicitly called for nerfs to the SM codex and supplements.

The librarius powers need nerfing. The battle company should confer free rhinos for 5 man squads, free razorbcks for 10 man squads. Grav needs to be nerfed. And teleportation needs to die.

The Conclave is fine if you tone down the distance to "6 of another Librarian.

GSF is not the most OP thing known to WH40K. I'd take Razorbacks out of the deal and leave that alone.

The funny thing is you didn't get the sarcasm and attack towards you that sentence held. Half my player base is vanilla marines. They are very good opponents and frequently beat me as much as I beat them. However, you already have an unhealthy hate towards eldar. It's to the point of hilarity and sadness. I hope you find help, little man. I sure hope.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Traditio wrote:
P4P:

I've explicitly called for nerfs to the SM codex and supplements.

The librarius powers need nerfing. The battle company should confer free rhinos for 5 man squads, free razorbcks for 10 man squads. Grav needs to be nerfed. And teleportation needs to die.

The Conclave is fine if you tone down the distance to "6 of another Librarian.

GSF is not the most OP thing known to WH40K. I'd take Razorbacks out of the deal and leave that alone.

not the Librarius conclave, the Librarius discipline that just came out/

 Swampmist wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Traditio wrote:
P4P:

I've explicitly called for nerfs to the SM codex and supplements.

The librarius powers need nerfing. The battle company should confer free rhinos for 5 man squads, free razorbcks for 10 man squads. Grav needs to be nerfed. And teleportation needs to die.

The Conclave is fine if you tone down the distance to "6 of another Librarian.

GSF is not the most OP thing known to WH40K. I'd take Razorbacks out of the deal and leave that alone.

not the Librarius conclave, the Librarius discipline that just came out/

What if we just made Librarians use those powers instead of the BRB powers? That'd be neat.

Tactical_Spam wrote:What if we just made Librarians use those powers instead of the BRB powers? That'd be neat.

No.

No.

No. Enough with shenanigans. Enough with death stars. Enough with force multiplication to the point of making things either invincible or ridiculously killy. Enough with obviously OP, undercosted things.

We need less 007 infiltration, less Godzilla in space, less battle of the giant robots..

...

...

And more Normandy in space.

Traditio wrote:

Tactical_Spam wrote:What if we just made Librarians use those powers instead of the BRB powers? That'd be neat.

No.

No.

No. Enough with shenanigans. Enough with death stars. Enough with force multiplication to the point of making things either invincible or ridiculously killy. Enough with obviously OP, undercosted things.

We need less 007 infiltration, less Godzilla in space, less battle of the giant robots..

...

...

And more Normandy in space.

What happened to "No more nerfs! No more nerfs! No more nerfs!?

pm713 wrote:What happened to "No more nerfs! No more nerfs! No more nerfs!?

I've never called for "no more nerfs."

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:What happened to "No more nerfs! No more nerfs! No more nerfs!?

I've never called for "no more nerfs."

He is right. He only calls nerfs to eldar and their player base. He wants us to become the weakest codex so that marines get stepped up to 2nd place. After that, he plans to attack tau, and necrons since they are so close to failing his codex' power

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:What happened to "No more nerfs! No more nerfs! No more nerfs!?

I've never called for "no more nerfs."

He is right. He only calls nerfs to eldar and their player base. He wants us to become the weakest codex so that marines get stepped up to 2nd place. After that, he plans to attack tau, and necrons since they are so close to failing his codex' power

And yet he literally JUST called for marine nerfs, Like, no-one is in the right here (everyone needs to tone down the salt a bit, srsly) but talking over eachother just breads the hostility more.

 Swampmist wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:What happened to "No more nerfs! No more nerfs! No more nerfs!?

I've never called for "no more nerfs."

He is right. He only calls nerfs to eldar and their player base. He wants us to become the weakest codex so that marines get stepped up to 2nd place. After that, he plans to attack tau, and necrons since they are so close to failing his codex' power

And yet he literally JUST called for marine nerfs, Like, no-one is in the right here (everyone needs to tone down the salt a bit, srsly) but talking over eachother just breads the hostility more.

Let's not forget his salt level got pretty bad. But you're correct. On topic, eldar need tweaks. Everyone can agree. However, some of the mentioned tweaks are a bit much. Each aspect unit is a specialized unit, so when someone complains about them excelling at.. Well.. What they are meant to excel at.. It kinda seems ridiculous. Now as far as wraithknights go, and guard to a point, I full heartedly agree! They need some adjustments.

RULE #1 IS - DO NOT MAKE IT PERSONAL! KEEP IT POLITE!

Vanilla marines are also out of hand at this point. However, losing to gladius on points is very different than being tabled by eldar. Every game against eldar is like "why did i even bother? "

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:What happened to "No more nerfs! No more nerfs! No more nerfs!?

I've never called for "no more nerfs."

I'll hold my hands up here. You never used those words. Hell of a habit of yelling nerf everthing though.

Martel732 wrote:
Vanilla marines are also out of hand at this point. However, losing to gladius on points is very different than being tabled by eldar. Every game against eldar is like "why did i even bother? "

Every game? If I take 40 guardians, two squads of dire avengars, a squad of swooping Hawks, some batteries without d cannons, and a wraith lord, with a warlock conclave and 3 warlocks as hq, some dark reapers and a squad of 10 striking scorpions you are going to say why bother.. It all depends on the type of game. You'd crush what I just listed, even with blood Angels.

Also, there is only one way tbe power level is going: up.

This was supposed to be a thread of Eldar players taking it upon themselves to identify the problems of the Eldar dex and suggest ways to alleviate them ...why does it always have to deteriorate to this...outright hate some people have... I honesty just get so sick of this...

 Torus wrote:
This was supposed to be a thread of Eldar players taking it upon themselves to identify the problems of the Eldar dex and suggest ways to alleviate them ...why does it always have to deteriorate to this...outright hate some people have... I honesty just get so sick of this...

I don't think that Eldar players can do that. Fanboys shouldn't be in charge of writing the codices.

What motivation does an eldar player have to substantially nerf his codex to actual parity with other codices?

Sure, he has every interest in presenting the APPEARANCE of parity. That's how you get more games.

But actual parity? Eldar players like winning too much.

 Torus wrote:
This was supposed to be a thread of Eldar players taking it upon themselves to identify the problems of the Eldar dex and suggest ways to alleviate them ...why does it always have to deteriorate to this...outright hate some people have... I honesty just get so sick of this...

Some suggestions: All D weapons use 6th ed codex rules.
Flickerjump once per phase.
Windrider heavy weapons become 1 in 3. Scatter laser is 15pts.

Traditio either be a rational person or leave.

Traditio wrote:

 Torus wrote:
This was supposed to be a thread of Eldar players taking it upon themselves to identify the problems of the Eldar dex and suggest ways to alleviate them ...why does it always have to deteriorate to this...outright hate some people have... I honesty just get so sick of this...

Eldar players can't be trusted to do that. That's why fanboys shouldn't be in charge of writing the codices.

What motivation does an eldar player have to substantially nerf his codex to actual parity with other codices?

Sure, he has every interest in presenting the APPEARANCE of parity. That's how you get more games.

But actual parity? Eldar players like winning too much.

Way to completely miss the point and what alpha round said, and take personal opinion and group all eldar players together.

EXACTLY - DO NOT DO THAT.

STOP DOING THAT.

FINAL WARNING FOR ALL - RULE #1, OR SUSPENSION TIME!

pm713 wrote:Traditio either be a rational person or leave.

I presented actual suggestions earlier. No actual arguments were presented against them. Only the blanket assertion was made that it would make Eldar the worst codex in the game.

When I replied that even with such nerfs, Eldar would regularly stomp the lower tier codices, it was answered to me that Eldar should always beat space marines.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Traditio either be a rational person or leave.

I presented actual suggestions earlier. No actual arguments were presented against them. Only the blanket assertion was made that it would make Eldar the worst codex in the game.

When I replied that even with such nerfs, Eldar would regularly stomp the lower tier codices, it was answered to me that Eldar should always beat space marines.

The problem with your nerfs is the fact that you put eldar into the lower tier. If you are going to suggest nerfs, do so in a way that can keep them competetive with your beloved space marines, necrons, and tau. Why nerf them into the dirt? That's the problem we had. Not the fact you want nerfs, but the level of nerfs you used. It's a personal vendetta you have, and that's whatever.

Alpharius I apologize. Thank you for keeping us on topic.

On topic:
I feel wraithknights would be good with a base cost of 345 with sun cannon for free. To upgrade to the sword should be 25, and double d cannon for 50.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Traditio either be a rational person or leave.

I presented actual suggestions earlier. No actual arguments were presented against them. Only the blanket assertion was made that it would make Eldar the worst codex in the game.

When I replied that even with such nerfs, Eldar would regularly stomp the lower tier codices, it was answered to me that Eldar should always beat space marines.

Well in light of the mods posting I'm going to make this the last reply so we don't have any banning etc.

You presented suggestions but you failed to address the counterpoints adequately so while someone did say that the fact remains you have ignored counter arguments. I would suggest you go back and address them.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:The problem with your nerfs is the fact that you put eldar into the lower tier.

Would it? I'm simply not convinced of this. A 14 point dire avenger is not substantially worse than a 13 point dire avenger.

A 10 point guardian is not substantially worse than a 9 point guardian.

The nerf that I recommended which seems to be getting the most flakk (other than the wraithlord thing) is the 10 percent points increase thing. A 10 percent point increase is very minor.

It means that I get 1100 points vs 1000 of your points (if we measure those points in terms of what your stuff currently costs).

That may sound like a lot. But the fact is that Eldar currently have a very high level of firepower and offensive capability, even apart from the "problem" units, and I don't think it's too far of a stretch to say that the Eldar codex probably was written by Eldar fanboys under GW employ. Even if something doesn't LOOK undercosted or overpowered, based simply on the codex as a whole, the assumption should be that it probably is. Thus the 10 percent point increase across the board.

Ultimately, I'm willing to concede the wraithlord price increase and simply rest with calling for a 10% points increase.

But even as stands, it wouldn't push Eldar below orks, chaos space marines, etc. It would probably put them roughly on parity with other middle tier codices. Which is where all codices should be.

[If you are going to suggest nerfs, do so in a way that can keep them competitive with your beloved space marines, necrons, and tau. Why nerf them into the dirt?

It's not a nerf "into the dirt." Again, I wish to stress the fact that 10% is basically trivial. 10 percent of 1850 points is 185 points.

Given the fact that eldar are capable of tabling opponents even without the worst of their shenanigans, I don't think that's unreasonable.

That's the problem we had. Not the fact you want nerfs, but the level of nerfs you used. It's a personal vendetta you have, and that's whatever.

410 is less than the 460 that Martel recommended.

I'm aware that if your primary goal is effortlessly winning games/stomping your opponent into the ground (and I am not claiming that this is your goal), then my nerfs look positively horrible. It's a massive hindrance to running an Eldar cheese list.

But if you're goal is having a reasonable, fair game, then my nerfs are perfectly reasonable. If you aren't playing against a cheesemonger of whatever variety, the nerfs I proposed would probably result in basically even games, especially if space marines, tau, necrons, etc. are nerfed to roughly mid tier levels also.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:You presented suggestions but you failed to address the counterpoints adequately so while someone did say that the fact remains you have ignored counter arguments. I would suggest you go back and address them.

The main line of argument seemed to have been about the wraithlord. As I said, I don't feel strongly enough about the wraithlord thing to insist on that particular point.

Am I missing any other lines of argument?

 Torus wrote:
This was supposed to be a thread of Eldar players taking it upon themselves to identify the problems of the Eldar dex and suggest ways to alleviate them ...why does it always have to deteriorate to this...outright hate some people have... I honesty just get so sick of this...

Torus, it was a lofty goal to start with, but it was doomed to failure. This isn't meant to insult any one person specifically, but when you ask players of an army how they should nerf their own army they are going to provide you with a handful of things that need to be nerfed and then they will give you the barest minimum amount of nerf possible. There has been several well thought out posts here in regards to point increases, loss of abilities and such, and instead of being received as possible good ideas by the actual Eldar players, they are screamed at and told to go away because it would make the Codex to weak.

Whenever I make a thread in regards to buffing orks to parody levels with Eldar/Tau/SM/Necrons I get yelled at by a significant group of people saying that we need to stop the power creep and that the answer isn't buffing orks up to that level but instead nerfing Eldar and the others DOWN to Ork level.

In this thread it was even said that Eldar players want to be nerfed down a bit, to be closer to the SM/Tau/Necron level (closest thing I have yet seen to an eldar player openly admitting they have the most stupidly OP codex in the game) but that they do not wish to be nerfed into the ground down to Ork/chaos/Tyranid level.

So where is the parody in this? The same people who are saying don't buff orks to Eldar level are also the same people who don't want Eldar reduced to Ork level.

SemperMortis wrote:Whenever I make a thread in regards to buffing orks to parody levels with Eldar/Tau/SM/Necrons I get yelled at by a significant group of people saying that we need to stop the power creep and that the answer isn't buffing orks up to that level but instead nerfing Eldar and the others DOWN to Ork level.

I'll take the credit for this one.

It was me. I said this.

So where is the parody in this? The same people who are saying don't buff orks to Eldar level are also the same people who don't want Eldar reduced to Ork level.

Not quite true. I don't want orks buffed to Eldar level. I do essentially want Eldar reduced to Ork level (orks receiving buffs to roughly mid-tier level).

Tradito it wasn't just you though,several others in this very thread have had similar objections

SemperMortis wrote:
Tradito it wasn't just you though,several others in this very thread have had similar objections

I want 5th edition back, yo.