Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So say I drop two Drop Pods on Turn One, one with a melee unit with a Librarian, the other with a squad of Tactical Marines. If my Librarian uses Electrodisplacement to swap positions with the Tactical Squad, does the melee squad get to Charge that turn?

The power says that "Unless locked in close combat, these units can charge in the same turn."

Would specific override general(Deep Strike prevents charging)?

RAI: I would say that it means unless otherwise unable they may charge.

RAW: If you have quoted that correctly then there may be an argument for why they would be able to charge turn one, but I don't think anyone would play it as that.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So say I drop two Drop Pods on Turn One, one with a melee unit with a Librarian, the other with a squad of Tactical Marines. If my Librarian uses Electrodisplacement to swap positions with the Tactical Squad, does the melee squad get to Charge that turn?

The power says that "Unless locked in close combat, these units can charge in the same turn."

Would specific override general(Deep Strike prevents charging)?

If they arrived via Deep Strike, they may not charge. The power does not specifically override the Deep Strike restriction.

I'll have to double-check the wording on Electrodisplacement, but I can tell you, if you tried that on me, I would shake your hand and calmly pack up my army. I have no interest in playing someone who deliberately exploits possible loopholes.

Units are allowed to charge. Some rules or moves restrict that permission, like DS or running.
Some FURTHER rules re-instigate that permission. Fleet, for example, says that you can charge. Models need that redo of the original permission because Run says no charging after run.

Here's some units that can charge. They DS, which says they can't charge. Now EsD says "these units can charge." This reinstates the original permission just like Fleet does (or "First the Fire, then the Blade" from Skyhammer), except for all things in the game rather than just for one specific action. DS? No problem you can charge. Infiltrate? No problem you can charge. Scout move? NP. disembarked a vehicle? &c &c.

You would need a specific permission to override the restriction.

 EnTyme wrote:
I'll have to double-check the wording on Electrodisplacement, but I can tell you, if you tried that on me, I would shake your hand and calmly pack up my army. I have no interest in playing someone who deliberately exploits possible loopholes.

Following the rules isn't a loophole. It's a clear permission, just like any number of USRs or army-specific rules.

Eh I would say that the generalized "you can charge after doing this" in ESD is just the writer trying to tell you that this move doesn't stop charges. I don't think he's trying to tell you that the power also removes all other effects that might stop you from charging. For example, coming in from reserve in a rhino that outflanked due to warlord trait and disembarking.

I share the opinion that a general permission doesn't override a very specific restriction.

That's just RAI educated guessing though.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Units are allowed to charge. Some rules or moves restrict that permission, like DS or running.
Some FURTHER rules re-instigate that permission. Fleet, for example, says that you can charge. Models need that redo of the original permission because Run says no charging after run.

Here's some units that can charge. They DS, which says they can't charge. Now EsD says "these units can charge." This reinstates the original permission just like Fleet does (or "First the Fire, then the Blade" from Skyhammer), except for all things in the game rather than just for one specific action. DS? No problem you can charge. Infiltrate? No problem you can charge. Scout move? NP. disembarked a vehicle? &c &c.

Then permission from the rule isn't needed from the electrodisplacement as the Assault Vehicle rule from the Open-Topped Drop Pod already has this covered to override the restriction against Charging the turn after you Deep Strike and Arriving From Reserves.

However, most players do view that you have to actually generate the specific conflict in order to override the restriction. What does this mean? That Assault Vehicle only addresses the restriction against Charging after Disembarking a Vehicle, but does not address the restriction against Charging stated by the Deep Strike rule and by Arriving From Reserves.
So, Permission to override Disembarking Restriction? Yes.
Permisission to override Deep Strike Restriction? No.
Permission to override Arriving From Reserves Restriction? No.

So a unit hopping out of a Drop Pod cannot Charge that turn because it has two restrictions still affecting it.

As a side note, Fleet only allows for rerolls, it doesn't override anything regarding Charging. First the Fire, then the Blade specifically overrides the restriction for Deep Strike and Reserves by addressing "Deep Strike Reserves" for the Assault Squad.

 Charistoph wrote:

As a side note, Fleet only allows for rerolls, it doesn't override anything regarding Charging. First the Fire, then the Blade specifically overrides the restriction for Deep Strike and Reserves by addressing "Deep Strike Reserves" for the Assault Squad.

Yep exactly. But if you recently read the BoLs article just start the libby on the table.. drop your pods in, swap and then charge just fine.

I guess Tau have the only turn 1 defense against this.. but we will have to take out every deepstriking unit as to not have a star swap out for them.. uff

*EDIT* marine players could use coteaz to help counter some of this (intercepting each nearby squad), but that is still limited in range.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bubble wrap for days!

Between this and the terrain moving power, I really have to wonder if they put any thought whatsoever into the new SM spells other than "that would be pretty cool!".

At least the new powers kind of encourage cc armies rather than the default gun line armies. I for one would be delighted if I was in cc with my opponant on turn 1.

(Although this mainly refers to teleporting cc units into charge range, but we will have to see...)

 mrhappyface wrote:
At least the new powers kind of encourage cc armies rather than the default gun line armies. I for one would be delighted if I was in cc with my opponant on turn 1.

(Although this mainly refers to teleporting cc units into charge range, but we will have to see...)

My Tau usually are in CC turn 1 because everyone rushes at me and leaves me no choice

 Grizzyzz wrote:


My Tau usually are in CC turn 1 because everyone rushes at me and leaves me no choice

Who doesn't love giving Tau a big hug on turn 1?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:


My Tau usually are in CC turn 1 because everyone rushes at me and leaves me no choice

Who doesn't love giving Tau a big hug on turn 1?

Surprisingly many people... MCs even Tau's are tough to deal with for the average unit in CC. I just enjoy the look on my opponents face when I say, "ok assault phase, let's make some charges!". Really throws people for a loop. Doesn't always go my way but sometimes it works out. Ghostkeel are great in CC, especially if you have 2-3.

Thanks for the clarifications, guys. If it did work (I was seeing if anyone would be able to make a legitimate case for it), I would have my new way of getting Pedro+Honour Guard+Librarian into combat. They would just swap places with the other Drop Pod squad (Sternguard) and charge in. Looks like I will just be using a squad of Infiltrating Scouts to pull this off instead. Just get the Scouts in 24" of my Librarian while maintaining a good charging distance for Pedro, and ZZAAPP! Pedro is in Charge range.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:


My Tau usually are in CC turn 1 because everyone rushes at me and leaves me no choice

Who doesn't love giving Tau a big hug on turn 1?

Surprisingly many people... MCs even Tau's are tough to deal with for the average unit in CC. I just enjoy the look on my opponents face when I say, "ok assault phase, let's make some charges!". Really throws people for a loop. Doesn't always go my way but sometimes it works out. Ghostkeel are great in CC, especially if you have 2-3.

Through personal experience I found the ghostkeel (and riptide for that matter) a little easy to take on in cc... Then again DP with black mace will do that!

 mrhappyface wrote:

Through personal experience I found the ghostkeel (and riptide for that matter) a little easy to take on in cc... Then again DP with black mace will do that!

Haha, that will do .. that will do. I have near hilarious luck with my riptides in CC. To my opponents dismay. This past weekend one of mine killed Belakor in CC after 2 rounds of combat. It was glorious.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Through personal experience I found the ghostkeel (and riptide for that matter) a little easy to take on in cc... Then again DP with black mace will do that!

Haha, that will do .. that will do. I have near hilarious luck with my riptides in CC. To my opponents dismay. This past weekend one of mine killed Belakor in CC after 2 rounds of combat. It was glorious.

R.I.P Dark Master of Chaos. Although I am not suprised, despite being 350pts he isn't exactly a cc power house despite fleshbane attacks. (It is, after all, only 5 attacks against a model with 5 wounds) If I had a pound for every time I had gotten cocky and charged Be'lakor into cc only to realise the unit he is charging is comprised of ordo malice inquisitors... Or even just a rather stubborn unit of (lucky) guardsmen.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Through personal experience I found the ghostkeel (and riptide for that matter) a little easy to take on in cc... Then again DP with black mace will do that!

Haha, that will do .. that will do. I have near hilarious luck with my riptides in CC. To my opponents dismay. This past weekend one of mine killed Belakor in CC after 2 rounds of combat. It was glorious.

R.I.P Dark Master of Chaos. Although I am not suprised, despite being 350pts he isn't exactly a cc power house despite fleshbane attacks. (It is, after all, only 5 attacks against a model with 5 wounds) If I had a pound for every time I had gotten cocky and charged Be'lakor into cc only to realise the unit he is charging is comprised of ordo malice inquisitors... Or even just a rather stubborn unit of (lucky) guardsmen.

Yeah I was just as surprised as my friend. I am surprised he only has his 4++ as well and no FNP or anything else to really help out. My friend kinda forgot about invisibility but in this case i am already hitting him on 5s (and we were playing NOVA's FAQ so it really wouldnt have changed much anyway). But yes. I expected more from him.