Death From the Skies

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**Vankraken**

MrFlutterPie wrote:
Capamaru wrote:
Does anyone else find the enclosed cockpit with the WW2 tank visor really bad idea?

Maybe the plane interfaces with the marine's armour so the pilot actually has a better sense of his surrounding now that all of the sensors are plugged into his armour.

Could be interesting if auto senses worked so the pilot could feel the wind on his face as he flew or could locate his target by smell.

Makes me thing that somebody needs to make a Space Wolves flyer where the pilot is sticking his head out the window with his tongue hanging out.

**Requizen**

Hm, mixed feelings on it now that they've laid it out. It sounds like if you don't want to take part in it, you can just disengage?But it sounds overly complicated and I'm not a fan of "roll off, consult tables". It'll probably get a bit easier as you keep playing, but we'll have to see. I often find that rarely do both players have flyers anyway (unless one is a FMC).

I mean, we already have Psychic Phase, which 8 armies literally cannot take part in unless they bring in allies, so I guess Phase breakdown is just the way they're going for these sorts of things.

**Red Corsair**

Actually It will be interesting to see if FMC are even included in the new rules. If they don't have the new profiles like pursuit then I have know idea how they would participate.

That said I kind of would like it if FMC could be shot down from reserve etc by attack wings, since I hate the tactic of constantly summoning and flying off the board to safety.

**Warhams-77**

The combat roles - via War of Sigmar

Let's see how much this actually increases game time. If flyers destroy each other earlier in the game it could balance out. If it makes for tense battles it could be worth it anyway

**the_scotsman**

I just hope this does something to address the massive disparity of FMCs vs flyers (FMCs basically auto-win against "anti-air" attack fighters...because of the same reasons MCs auto-win against walkers, stuff like "lets give them 3+ and 2+ armor saves to multiply their durability by 3x-6x by default", and they do not have the facing restrictions flyers have, so they can just hang out behind the flyer and the flyer can only ever get one attack before the FMC does so).

**Mr Morden**

I wonder if Dark Elder flyers finally get Vector Dancer..............

**Tamereth**

So if I want a Dakka jet guess I need to order now before it gets replaced by a more expensive kit with the extra bits?

I still don't think flyers work in a normal 28mm game. Something like apocalyse, where your playing across the floor of the local village hall maybe, but not on a 6'x4' table.

**Kanluwen**

Tamereth wrote:
So if I want a Dakka jet guess I need to order now before it gets replaced by a more expensive kit with the extra bits?

Only one person so far has said that they're "going away".

It's also worth noting that if they were actually going to be replaced? Shops would have already started sending them back.

**Crablezworth**

"Seasoned warhammer 40,000 gamers will recall the vehicle attack pattern in warhammer 40,000: apocalypse and these ones are very similar."

No gak, it might have to do with 40k being apoc now

This may prove to be 7th edition's thin mint

Spoiler:

**Yodhrin**

Nevelon wrote:
Warhams-77 wrote:
I think intercepting enemy flyers and having dogfights off table is great as it adds interesting features to the game. Now flyers are not a waste of points sitting nearby in the early part of a battle.

True, but there is a balance between complexity and simplification. I’d rather not spend 10 minutes rolling and looking up tables, or playing rock/paper/scissors to find out of my flyer in reserves has taken a hull point off of your flyer. I’d rather focus on the battlefield in front of me. I’m OK with dogfights happening off screen out of the rules, from a narrative POV. Maybe my marine force deployed to the planet with a full wing of stomtalons, but the reason the one I included in my list showed up on turn 4 was the fact that they were mugged by dakkajets, and he just barely made it to the battlefield for some needed air support.

I don’t need (or want) another phase to tell me what’s happening. There are time I enjoy playing more complex wargames. But for 40k, I’d like to keep it on the simple side.

YMMV. It’s not like there is a wrong answer here. Just how much detail you want represented in the rules.

Frankly I'd rather have an off-table phase to represent fliers as part of 40K games than I would clutter up the table with "formations"(ffs GW) of multiple models that were already too big for the scale of the game when folk were just using one of them. Aircraft would cross the size of your average 40K tabletop in less than the blink of an eye, cramming them into 40K games bloats the game and forces GW to ruin their own fluff/aesthetic with stuff like the Chibihawk so they can produce semi-practical gaming models for all the factions.

**Talys**

Based on what I see, all this comes down to what Bombers and Attack Flyers can do to units on the ground -- if bombers can do significantly more to ground units than flyers do presently, then people will care.

Otherwise, all this stuff will be very cool and fluffy, but largely ignored competitively.

I've kind of wanted a Xiphon pattern interceptor for a while; maybe this nudge me into buying one

Then, invariably, I will be disappointed by how one or more pieces of resin require tons of work to look good. Or fit. LOL

**Gamgee**

The slow and ponders Sun Shark. Welp we k now one way its going to be bad already its slow and ponderous for an aircraft. I get the feeling its implied to be slow and ponderous even for a bomber.

And its one of the weakest in the game and smallest amount of firepower. It needs to be buffed by an extraordinary amount to even be worth considering in a casual game.

That leaves us only one aircraft left to hope to be good and I honestly doubt it will be.

We don't have a dedicated Fighter now that Barricuda is gone. -_-

**the_scotsman**

Yes, poor Tau, they just have no way of dealing with flyers.

you know

some sort of ultra-cheap, optional skyfire upgrade thing they could put on all their units.

**EnTyme**

Gamgee wrote:
The slow and ponders Sun Shark. Welp we k now one way its going to be bad already its slow and ponderous for an aircraft. I get the feeling its implied to be slow and ponderous even for a bomber.

And its one of the weakest in the game and smallest amount of firepower. It needs to be buffed by an extraordinary amount to even be worth considering in a casual game.

That leaves us only one aircraft left to hope to be good and I honestly doubt it will be.

We don't have a dedicated Fighter now that Barricuda is gone. -_-

I'm wondering if this will just add the new stats or make changes to the existing stats.

**Verviedi**

Skyfire is 25 ppm, and it's only practical on Broadsides.

**rollawaythestone**

I like this Dogfight phase. Flyers in reserve interacting with the battle is a cool idea. It also might make some Fighter jets that suck on the board pretty decent when Dogfighting in reserve. Being able to take down transports while they are still in reserve is terrifying.

**General Kroll**

Talys wrote:
I've kind of wanted a Xiphon pattern interceptor for a while; maybe this nudge me into buying one Then, invariably, I will be disappointed by how one or more pieces of resin require tons of work to look good. Or fit. LOL

Me too, I've a sad feeling forgeworld units will be left out of the fun and become unplayable though.

**rollawaythestone**

I'm hoping you can also engage FMC's while they are in reserve during the dogfight. Would be cool to follow a FMC off the board in order to dogfight it dead.

**tneva82**

General Kroll wrote:
Talys wrote:
I've kind of wanted a Xiphon pattern interceptor for a while; maybe this nudge me into buying one Then, invariably, I will be disappointed by how one or more pieces of resin require tons of work to look good. Or fit. LOL

Me too, I've a sad feeling forgeworld units will be left out of the fun and become unplayable though.

I'm willing to bet FW will faq their products. They want to keep selling 'em

**455_PWR**

Ok, so note they want folks to buy 3 or 4 of their fliers? That could be like 800 points! Sorry but too expensive dollar wise and points wise.

Get rid on fliers, super heavies, and formations... bring back good old 40k! We can play apocalypse seperately thank you.

**DarkStarSabre**

rollawaythestone wrote:
I'm hoping you can also engage FMC's while they are in reserve during the dogfight. Would be cool to follow a FMC off the board in order to dogfight it dead.

Only if there's suitable risk to yourself for doing so. Otherwise you've pretty much just gone and thrown Tyranids on the trash heap next to CSM in terms of viability.

**Peregrine**

Ugh. The rules description so far is sounding a lot like the old Death From The Skies book, which was absolute garbage. The flyer rules were literally "play a game of rock/paper/scissors to see who wins", and it even suggested rolling randomly to see what you pilot does because there were no actual decisions to make. If this book is just another "roll some dice to see which random table to roll on, which will tell you what other dice to roll, and eventually someone gets destroyed on a 5+" embarrassment we can only hope that, like the previous version, the community collectively says "no thanks" and hardly anyone even remembers it a week later.

**mercury14**

Peregrine wrote:
Ugh. The rules description so far is sounding a lot like the old Death From The Skies book, which was absolute garbage. The flyer rules were literally "play a game of rock/paper/scissors to see who wins", and it even suggested rolling randomly to see what you pilot does because there were no actual decisions to make. If this book is just another "roll some dice to see which random table to roll on, which will tell you what other dice to roll, and eventually someone gets destroyed on a 5+" embarrassment we can only hope that, like the previous version, the community collectively says "no thanks" and hardly anyone even remembers it a week later.

Why would they call it new then?

**Gamgee**

the_scotsman wrote:
Yes, poor Tau, they just have no way of dealing with flyers.

you know

some sort of ultra-cheap, optional skyfire upgrade thing they could put on all their units.

That is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I'm talking about a Tau bomber it attacks ground targets. I never said we didn't have good anti air, and even if that was the discussion why shouldn't all the races including Tau not have good flyers that are balanced and useful to take for taking down air? Why should we be penalized and everyone else get the benefits reaped on them? Is it just because you like seeing people be miserable? I can't think of any other reason. As it is both Tau flyers are the worst flyers in the entire pantheon of flyers. Or among them. The Dark Eldar ones are miserable too.

**Blacksails**

The only thing I'm hoping for is some sort of plastic IN fighter kit for Thunderbolt, Lightning, Avenger, or Vulture.

As for the rules, no thanks. I think the game is bloated enough as is without yet another phase for models that frankly don't really fit at this scale.

**Peregrine**

mercury14 wrote:
Why would they call it new then?

Because they can sell you an expensive new book. Haven't you noticed that GW's business model is built around selling you minor "updates" to recycled content at absurdly high prices?

**mercury14**

Wonder how a "Break Turn" differs from Vector Dancer.

**Gamgee**

Peregrine wrote:
mercury14 wrote:
Why would they call it new then?

Because they can sell you an expensive new book. Haven't you noticed that GW's business model is built around selling you minor "updates" to recycled content at absurdly high prices?

Sounds like they are learning from the video game industry how to really milk their customers.

**mercury14**

Gamgee wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
mercury14 wrote:
Why would they call it new then?

Because they can sell you an expensive new book. Haven't you noticed that GW's business model is built around selling you minor "updates" to recycled content at absurdly high prices?

Sounds like they are learning from the video game industry how to really milk their customers.

Maybe. But a crappy book won't sell.

**Requizen**

tneva82 wrote:
General Kroll wrote:
Talys wrote:
I've kind of wanted a Xiphon pattern interceptor for a while; maybe this nudge me into buying one Then, invariably, I will be disappointed by how one or more pieces of resin require tons of work to look good. Or fit. LOL

Me too, I've a sad feeling forgeworld units will be left out of the fun and become unplayable though.

I'm willing to bet FW will faq their products. They want to keep selling 'em

Tell that to IA12 Necrons. Freaking Pylon is still Skyfire/Interceptor after 7th has been out for how long?