Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
As someone who loves aircraft and loves (most) 40k aircraft.... these additions to the rules sound horrible to me. The last thing 40k needs is even more unbalanced rock paper scissors mechanics.
2016/04/27 00:41:56
Subject: Re:Flyers Coming This Summer : Pics in OP!
Space Marines were Super Future Space Templar Special Forces Monks, that was their appeal. The post-Heresy division of military power in the Imperium was a cool bit of fluff. Now all of that is out the window because the Space Marines had to be able to be SFSTSFM and field tank battalions and an air force, and be the best at all of them, so the elite Special Forces unit that was supposed to be banned by Imperial Decree from operating air & space fighters & bombers because that role was given to the Imperial Navy(hence why technically even Guard Valkyries are Navy assets with Navy pilots on secondment) are now trotting around with gunships and superiority fighters galore, and of course they're the bestest gunships and fighters ever, much more bestest than those silly normal human planes which are poo so you should buy more Spehz Marinz
How old is this fluff you are talking about and any idea where I might find it? Because I know that as far as the start of the Horus Heresy series (when I started following 40k), Battle Fleet Gothic and even Dawn of War era stuff they all had marines with armoured tank, battleship, gunboat and assault craft.
Is there a Warhammer-equivalent of "let me google that for you"? How old it is is irrelevant, GW fluff remains valid until it's explicitly contradicted, and it's that recent contradiction that's being remarked on.
Battlefleet Gothic is a good start though, as it includes specific blurbs about how controversial it was for the Marines to equip even an Escort-class vessel with lance weapons, since they were not supposed to possess any dedicated anti-line-ship vessels at all. Space Marine ships are supposed to be short-ranged and primarily focused on planetary assault; bombardment cannons and launch facilities being their main armament with only limited ship-to-ship weaponry on most vessels. The background for the Thunderhawk notes that they get around the prohibition against dedicated fighters/gunships by virtue of it having a transport capacity and acting as an avenue of deployment for regular Marines even though it's obviously capable of more than that(a letter vs spirit issue, like Sisters of Battle and the Decree Passive). The background on the aftermath of the Heresy is quite explicit - the Imperium never again wanted to have a situation where one madman or one group of Space Marines would be capable of engaging in total war, so their role was limited to that of rapid strike and all other aspects of the Imperial Army were divided between the Imperial Guard, the PDFs, and the Imperial Navy - all fighter and gunship responsibilities, for both voidwar and aerial combat, were the domain of the Imperial Navy. Have a read of Double Eagle, one of the core plot points is that it features literally the only Imperial Guard aircraft regiment in the entire Imperium.
Marines retained some armoured warfare capacity, because they required the ability to engage enemy armour when operating as a mechanised force, but that's the key point - outside of operating in-concert with Rhino-mounted Marines, full-on mass tank v tank battles were specifically noted as rarities or one-off tactics to take on an enemy they otherwise couldn't have handled(like throwing every Land Raider from your chapter armoury at a Titan).
Now, GW are perfectly within their rights to change all that fluff, it's just not a very good change from my perspective since it diminishes both the factions onto who's turf the Marines now encroach and also the Marines themselves, who have gone from colossal badasses who can swoop in and end a war with a single hammerblow assault on the enemy HQ, or even crush a rebellion out of pure fear by simply showing up in orbit, to essentially being "All the other human factions in one, but gooderer". Snore.
Maybe a built-up to a new "horus heresey/end of times"?
Boo - variants kits that are just an excuse to rebox existing kits and make them more expensive. After all, you can only build one of the two variants.
Squadrons of flyers? So are we going back to the 4×8 board standard? Otherwise the tabletop is about to get even more cluttered, some of the flyers take up a lot of space.
BrotherGecko wrote: Squadrons of flyers? So are we going back to the 4×8 board standard? Otherwise the tabletop is about to get even more cluttered, some of the flyers take up a lot of space.
There already are flyers that can be taken in squadrons tho
BrotherGecko wrote: Squadrons of flyers? So are we going back to the 4×8 board standard? Otherwise the tabletop is about to get even more cluttered, some of the flyers take up a lot of space.
There already are flyers that can be taken in squadrons tho
Which ones? I used to buy all the codexes to keep on the up and up but they are way to expensive for that now.
I remember the valkyrie could but I've never seen it before because it takes up a huge amount of space and reduces maneuverability.
Soooo....
Do dark angels/Orks get an air superiority fighter yet?
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
orkz have 4
cwe have 2
sm have 3
da have 2
ig have 2
sw have 2
tau have 2
de have 2
necrons have 2
csm have 1
Funny things is, is that Eldar, in example, have their Crimson something and Hemlock something listed as separate models, while IG ony have Valkyrie. Vendetta is not listed as a separate kit. So in theory, IG only have one flyer. And that makes 21 out of 23, leaving exactly two places to fit in Nid Harpy and Crone. At least that's my theory.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/27 03:14:06
No confirmation yet, but looking at what we have I'm actually pretty excited. Hopefully there is a good trade off with what they can actually do vs the end of 5th when they just decided to throw them out there.
No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k - DOW III
2016/04/27 04:02:21
Subject: Re:Flyers Coming This Summer : Pics in OP!
So, bombers lose skyfire, which means that if you want to deal with enemy aircraft you now have to bring fighters of your own in addition to your bombers. More huge and awkward models on the table, more points spent on flyers instead of "normal" units. I guess we're going to have to move up to 5,000 points and a 10x6 table to hold all of this stuff? Or I suppose we could just ignore this pointless rules-bloat expansion and treat it as a couple of nice counts-as models for the existing C:SM and ork flyers.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
They could add the skyfire rule to them like they used to on forgeworld.
Also, since they are updating EVERY flyer in the core rules sets, it is possible that the factions for blood angels, space wolves, etc. will be added to the storm talon/hawk.
Then every marine chapter will have access to these flyers without invalidating their books.
H.B.M.C. wrote: How would a bomber's tail gun (like the one on the new Orky thing) not have Skyfire?
You laugh, but it took quite a while for the tailguns on the Marauders to get skyfire.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Are these rules only if everyone agrees to play the Death from the Skies expansion (a la apocalypse), or will this become the new standard in all games of 40K?
Are these rules only if everyone agrees to play the Death from the Skies expansion (a la apocalypse), or will this become the new standard in all games of 40K?
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
If the next Codex(that has Flying vehicles)lists the Agility/Pursuit scores under the unit entry we'll know of its intended to be a part of the main game or not.
IG ony have Valkyrie. Vendetta is not listed as a separate kit. So in theory, IG only have one flyer. And that makes 21 out of 23, leaving exactly two places to fit in Nid Harpy and Crone. At least that's my theory.
keep on dreaming ^^ ... as it is, the vendetta is listed in the codex
IG ony have Valkyrie. Vendetta is not listed as a separate kit. So in theory, IG only have one flyer. And that makes 21 out of 23, leaving exactly two places to fit in Nid Harpy and Crone. At least that's my theory.
keep on dreaming ^^ ... as it is, the vendetta is listed in the codex
Well, then I would like to hear your theory what fills up those remaining spots
Well, then I would like to hear your theory what fills up that remaining spot
fixed that ... for me either a new flier or something else we haven't spoiled out yet from the new kits
But the teaser poster, featuring both new flyers is already up :( And the pictures from white dwarf already show what we're going to get. Do you really think they would hide something from players, just to make a surprise when they buy the supplement and see what's inside?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/27 05:15:16
Sinful Hero wrote: If the next Codex(that has Flying vehicles)lists the Agility/Pursuit scores under the unit entry we'll know of its intended to be a part of the main game or not.
I would be extremely surprised if GW did not do this because a) Players screaming new flying vehicles aren't being supported by the new supplement rules, b) cross-seeding for extra book sales.
(more)
(building)
(less)
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester 
The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k 
... for me either a new flier or something else we haven't spoiled out yet from the new kits