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From what was stated the new book replaces all the rules for fliers and adds scenarios etc. I sure hope they get 40k on boars like the AoS app so items can get updated easier.

 Nocturnus wrote:

 Virules wrote:
So if I understand all this right, GW managed the impossible by finding a way to make Heldrakes even worse and more overcosted relative to other fliers?

The Chaos hate continues...
So if I read that right, there's no reason to take a baleflamer anymore? Simply bizarre...

I may have missed something, but this makes no sense to me. The bale flamer still works exactly as it did, it never could engage other fliers and still cannot. Nothing leaked suggested it couldn't engage ground targets.

So in summary it is quite the opposite, there is every reason to take the bale flamer.


There are other armies that got it much worse.

Also I just want to thank you guys for the token chaos complaining session

Basically it means the Bale-Drake is a free target in the Dogfight phase, and is useless when it comes to participating in it unless you take (comparatively terrible) default Hades Autocannon.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Basically it means the Bale-Drake is a free target in the Dogfight phase, and is useless when it comes to participating in it unless you take (comparatively terrible) default Hades Autocannon.

Well the rest of the army is pretty much a free target in every other phase so par for course amirite?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Basically it means the Bale-Drake is a free target in the Dogfight phase, and is useless when it comes to participating in it unless you take (comparatively terrible) default Hades Autocannon.

Learn it, live it, love it.

This is how your Baleflamer will still be effective, despite the fact that it's not a Fighter.

You can't use a Baleflamer on a Flyer, and you can't VectorStrike during the Dogfight Phase...

 Kanluwen wrote:

This is how your Baleflamer will still be effective, despite the fact that it's not a Fighter.

The Helldrake can't use weapons in the dogfight phase because it's a flamer. And since dogfighting is handled abstractly with no movement it can't fly over anything to vector strike.

It's just a big goose flying around with red dots on it.

 Swampmist wrote:
You can't use a Baleflamer on a Flyer, and you can't VectorStrike during the Dogfight Phase...

That you know of.

Remember that the Heldrake is one of the new updated items, and we don't know the new datasheet.

The GW website has the strike wing bundle ready for ordering

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Strikewing

but the individual stormhawks for preorder

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Stormhawk-Interceptor

Did they make a mistake?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
You can't use a Baleflamer on a Flyer, and you can't VectorStrike during the Dogfight Phase...

That you know of.

Remember that the Heldrake is one of the new updated items, and we don't know the new datasheet.

Yes we do because no datasheets were updated with anything more than the new agility and pursuit values. White Dwarf set us up for disappointment.

Isn't the dogfight sub phase ignored 50% of the time if one side does not want to do it?

How many strict fighters are going to be taken when they are -1 bs to ground targets and there is no guarantee your opponent will take a flyer themselves to make the fighter worthwhile.

How many armored flyers are currently taken en mass, before the new rules 'nerf' them? Not many? In 9 games at Adepticon I played against one army that had one armored flyer. That was it.

There are lots of reasons flyers aren't taken in competitive environments, the largest one being that games often go just four turns making flyers not on the board enough to be worth it.

Also most just aren't very good.

Now they're worse and will be taken even less.

Flyers aren't used because they don't score and in progressive/maelstrom that sucks, especially when they usually cost more points than they should.

It was also mentioned by the guy with the book that the Baleflamer does nothing now.

We made it 18 pages before the Chaos whining started, a new record!

Throw in some Tau whining, and we have ourselves a thread!

Does the Stormhawk have AV12? Or three hull points? If so it might be worth the ten points over a Stormtalon, especially since it can get a decent Lascannon baseline.

I just want to know what the formation in the book does. The Tau one.

 Crazyterran wrote:
We made it 18 pages before the Chaos whining started, a new record!

Throw in some Tau whining, and we have ourselves a thread!

Does the Stormhawk have AV12? Or three hull points? If so it might be worth the ten points over a Stormtalon, especially since it can get a decent Lascannon baseline.

For the most part, it seems like Tau are uninterested. The Fliers are fluff/casual models, and don't really see a lot of play. The book seems unlikely to change that. We've got plenty of AA should other people desire to bring fliers. The only real downside is that our skimmers are now air targets, but our skimmers don't see much use anyway. In other words, Tau are unlikely to see much dogfight phase, and won't suffer much from new flier influx.

I'm confused as to why people think the hell drake is going to become useless? Aren't ground attacks going to be at -1bs? That won't effect how a bale flamer works against ground targets as its a template. In fact that sounds like a bonus for the heldrake in comparison to other flyers.

Or have I missed something?

 General Kroll wrote:
I'm confused as to why people think the hell drake is going to become useless? Aren't ground attacks going to be at -1bs? That won't effect how a bale flamer works against ground targets as its a template. In fact that sounds like a bonus for the heldrake in comparison to other flyers.

Or have I missed something?

I'm guessing is the whole dogfighting mechanic means the Heldrake can't hurt the opponent so it will basically always lose the fight which means its going to end up having to jink during said dogfight to survive and/or end up shaken or destroyed so it can't use its flamer.

 Vankraken wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
I'm confused as to why people think the hell drake is going to become useless? Aren't ground attacks going to be at -1bs? That won't effect how a bale flamer works against ground targets as its a template. In fact that sounds like a bonus for the heldrake in comparison to other flyers.

Or have I missed something?

I'm guessing is the whole dogfighting mechanic means the Heldrake can't hurt the opponent so it will basically always lose the fight which means its going to end up having to jink during said dogfight to survive and/or end up shaken or destroyed so it can't use its flamer.

I guess that would make things problematic. Do we know for sure that jinking in these off table dogfights will effect flyers once they come onto the table?

Are there already stats known for the tellyporta insta gib weapons on the ork flier (the alternative weapon layout of the flier) ?

So, who wants to bet that the Stormtalon/Raven are going to be attack craft (aka no Skyfire) while the Stormhawk is a flyer, so if you wanted a dedicated AA plane (as marines) you have to buy the new model?

 Gamgee wrote:
I just want to know what the formation in the book does. The Tau one.

Is it not the same as the one in the Tau codex?

Okay so the Dark Eldar formation requires two Razorwings and a Void Raven Bomber... and the bonus is interceptor.

Except when it wants to use interceptor it's at crappy BS3 because most stuff will be on the ground (drop pods, etc). Not only that but interceptor doesn't work turn one on pods (or turn 2 if you go second) because the fliers will be in reserve.

Wow. Terrible. How could they not think this through even a little bit?

mercury14 wrote:
Except when it wants to use interceptor it's at crappy BS3 because most stuff will be on the ground (drop pods, etc). Not only that but interceptor doesn't work turn one on pods (or turn 2 if you go second) because the fliers will be in reserve.

Hay, be fair!
Interceptor won't work on any turn, because you've only got a 45 degree fire arc.

mercury14 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
You can't use a Baleflamer on a Flyer, and you can't VectorStrike during the Dogfight Phase...

That you know of.

Remember that the Heldrake is one of the new updated items, and we don't know the new datasheet.

Yes we do because no datasheets were updated with anything more than the new agility and pursuit values. White Dwarf set us up for disappointment.

We don't know that, actually. I've not seen anything from the book, have you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
So, who wants to bet that the Stormtalon/Raven are going to be attack craft (aka no Skyfire) while the Stormhawk is a flyer, so if you wanted a dedicated AA plane (as marines) you have to buy the new model?

No bets. WD says as much:

Kan, we know that there aren't updated datasheets. People have asked that question to those with the book and gotten an answer. If the flyers themselves were updated that would be huge news that was immediately shared.

OP, can we update the title to say "Spring" instead of "Summer"?

 BrookM wrote:
OP, can we update the title to say "Spring" instead of "Summer"?

Or even "April/May", since from where someof us are standing/sitting it's Autumn, not Spring?

Stop doing everything in reserve then, Australia.

To be fair it makes perfect sense for the Stormtalon to be an attack flyer, it's a helicopter gunship equivilant after all. It's going to be going after ground targets. Hence the strafing run rule.

It's a shame there is no middle of the road option for things like Stormravens and Valkyries.