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SemperMortis wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Could be usable if you took the KFF and put it in a squad with 2 dedicated dakkajets kept within 6".

Except that again, your going from a 4+ Save to a 5+ save. Dakkajets are utter garbage anyway. 12 TL S6 shots at BS3 (against ground targets) isn't that good, on average your looking at around 9 hits, but for the same amount of points your paying for a dakka jet you could buy Warbikers and other scoring units that are more durable then an AV10/10/10 fighter.

Every Ork Flyer has been extremely underwhelming so far and I think this new one just adds to the flavor of disappointment with whoever is designing Ork rules.

But then you stick them in an attack pattern and suddenly your getting bonuses to BS.. That flyer is not bad when compared to other 40k flyers in the game. MOST flyers I would say aren't as good as something else in the codex. Look at Tau flyers for example.. why take them at all when everything else is better?

Except that again, your going from a 4+ Save to a 5+ save.

5+ inv though, makes a difference VS no cover weapons as they negate jink. With the KFF you get a 1/3 chance every time to save.
Agreed DJs arent super competitive but I dont think this flyer if used in conjunction is total trash.
And if you take flyboss and waaagh they become better.

 Ratius wrote:

Except that again, your going from a 4+ Save to a 5+ save.

5+ inv though, makes a difference VS no cover weapons as they negate jink. With the KFF you get a 1/3 chance every time to save.
Agreed DJs arent super competitive but I dont think this flyer if used in conjunction is total trash.
And if you take flyboss and waaagh they become better.

Also take into account wing leader bonuses.

6" added range to all weapons, +1 strength to all weapons or +1 shots to all weapons. Now the Wazbom could have a S9 kmk, twin linked S7 supa shoota and a S4+1+d6 smasha gun. Or 2 shots with a twin linked kmk and smasha gun.

There is also a formation that is a wazbom + 3 flyers that they all get a 3++ in a certian pattern and interceptor.

As for ork flyers in general , my favorite it the blitz bomber. S7, AP2, large blast, armor bane (tank hunter in the formation) have worked well for me. And going to be even better with DftS.

So as GK can I align with SM and just take a detachment of fighters?

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
So as GK can I align with SM and just take a detachment of fighters?

Correct if you want air support =)

Alrighty then! Thanks!

Sorry - wrong thread!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Looky Likey wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Could be usable if you took the KFF and put it in a squad with 2 dedicated dakkajets kept within 6".

I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a formation that did that and gave some other bonuses on top.

Does the rulebook give you enough rules to replicate aeronautica in 40k scale?

Yes--and it actually gives you a suggestion where, if you wish to do a bigger game of flyers, you should double the distance in terms of inches.

I don't think it lets you replicate aeronautica in 40k scale, unless there's something I missed.

My biggest disappointment with it is that you have to buy it if you use Flyers of any sort since they replace the BRB entry.

Also that, to my knowledge, DA, SW, BA and GK didn't get anything new from the book, aside an extra Flyer to ally with and universal detachments. I guess not playing the XIII legion has it's cons.

 Frozocrone wrote:
My biggest disappointment with it is that you have to buy it if you use Flyers of any sort since they replace the BRB entry.

Also that, to my knowledge, DA, SW, BA and GK didn't get anything new from the book, aside an extra Flyer to ally with and universal detachments. I guess not playing the XIII legion has it's cons.

You don't have to buy it. Yes the rules replace the ones in the brb. But not if you don't have them they don't. As long as your opponent agrees it's still perfectly fine to use the old rules.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

Except that again, your going from a 4+ Save to a 5+ save.

5+ inv though, makes a difference VS no cover weapons as they negate jink. With the KFF you get a 1/3 chance every time to save.
Agreed DJs arent super competitive but I dont think this flyer if used in conjunction is total trash.
And if you take flyboss and waaagh they become better.

Also take into account wing leader bonuses.

6" added range to all weapons, +1 strength to all weapons or +1 shots to all weapons. Now the Wazbom could have a S9 kmk, twin linked S7 supa shoota and a S4+1+d6 smasha gun. Or 2 shots with a twin linked kmk and smasha gun.

There is also a formation that is a wazbom + 3 flyers that they all get a 3++ in a certian pattern and interceptor.

As for ork flyers in general , my favorite it the blitz bomber. S7, AP2, large blast, armor bane (tank hunter in the formation) have worked well for me. And going to be even better with DftS.

Take two dakka jets with 3 twinlinked suppa shootas with an orcurion for 2x 12 str6 ap4 bs3 twinlinked shots.
In attack pattern means lead flyer has 3+ jink save. (Other one 4+)
Also ork wing leader gives the leader 1-2 as AV12/10/10 or 3-4 (bunch of shooting buffs) 5-6 1/3 chance to immediately prevent hull point loss. Also dakka jets have skyfire if they chose still and strafing run.

This makes the lead dakka jets way more durable with a 3+ cover and AV12 or 1/3 chance ignore hull point loss for only 2 dakka jets.

gungo wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

Except that again, your going from a 4+ Save to a 5+ save.

5+ inv though, makes a difference VS no cover weapons as they negate jink. With the KFF you get a 1/3 chance every time to save.
Agreed DJs arent super competitive but I dont think this flyer if used in conjunction is total trash.
And if you take flyboss and waaagh they become better.

Also take into account wing leader bonuses.

6" added range to all weapons, +1 strength to all weapons or +1 shots to all weapons. Now the Wazbom could have a S9 kmk, twin linked S7 supa shoota and a S4+1+d6 smasha gun. Or 2 shots with a twin linked kmk and smasha gun.

There is also a formation that is a wazbom + 3 flyers that they all get a 3++ in a certian pattern and interceptor.

As for ork flyers in general , my favorite it the blitz bomber. S7, AP2, large blast, armor bane (tank hunter in the formation) have worked well for me. And going to be even better with DftS.

Take two dakka jets with 3 twinlinked suppa shootas with an orcurion for 2x 12 str6 ap4 bs3 twinlinked shots.
In attack pattern means lead flyer has 3+ jink save. (Other one 4+)
Also ork wing leader gives the leader 1-2 as AV12/10/10 or 3-4 (bunch of shooting buffs) 5-6 1/3 chance to immediately prevent hull point loss. Also dakka jets have skyfire if they chose still and strafing run.

This makes the lead dakka jets way more durable with a 3+ cover and AV12 or 1/3 chance ignore hull point loss for only 2 dakka jets.

That is a good idea, except that it is unplayable at under 2k point games.

If the dakka jet formation is its own formation, you may take it with a cad...

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If the dakka jet formation is its own formation, you may take it with a cad...

The point was to gain the benefit of Waaagh every turn. That increases the number of shots per flyer by 3. Regardless, even if that were possible under 1850 (which it is not) your not going to bring 3 dakkajets anyway because what is a dakka jet? a rather expensive and fragile platform that fires S6 shots....don't we already have lootas for that, and they fire at S7?

Was just making a point, and they will also have better clearance for shots due to the chance at vector dancer now (agility roll)

I never field many lootas because I run snake bite and blood axe clans. I want my army moving up, not hanging back to shoot.

Just finished a kit bashed mega armor big mek with kustom forcefield to drag around some artillery full of grots for my big guns too. So even my artillery are pushing forward. Toughness 7 blob with giant guns and a 5++ versus shooting with the gretchen. Survivable grots! If the enemy close, my big squig full of nobz/warboss and my camo stompa full of ard boyz are more than happy to intercept.

SemperMortis wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

Except that again, your going from a 4+ Save to a 5+ save.

5+ inv though, makes a difference VS no cover weapons as they negate jink. With the KFF you get a 1/3 chance every time to save.
Agreed DJs arent super competitive but I dont think this flyer if used in conjunction is total trash.
And if you take flyboss and waaagh they become better.

Also take into account wing leader bonuses.

6" added range to all weapons, +1 strength to all weapons or +1 shots to all weapons. Now the Wazbom could have a S9 kmk, twin linked S7 supa shoota and a S4+1+d6 smasha gun. Or 2 shots with a twin linked kmk and smasha gun.

There is also a formation that is a wazbom + 3 flyers that they all get a 3++ in a certian pattern and interceptor.

As for ork flyers in general , my favorite it the blitz bomber. S7, AP2, large blast, armor bane (tank hunter in the formation) have worked well for me. And going to be even better with DftS.

Take two dakka jets with 3 twinlinked suppa shootas with an orcurion for 2x 12 str6 ap4 bs3 twinlinked shots.
In attack pattern means lead flyer has 3+ jink save. (Other one 4+)
Also ork wing leader gives the leader 1-2 as AV12/10/10 or 3-4 (bunch of shooting buffs) 5-6 1/3 chance to immediately prevent hull point loss. Also dakka jets have skyfire if they chose still and strafing run.

This makes the lead dakka jets way more durable with a 3+ cover and AV12 or 1/3 chance ignore hull point loss for only 2 dakka jets.

That is a good idea, except that it is unplayable at under 2k point games.

Not true
You need to take an auxiliary anyway.
Heck you can fit a ghaz council, waagh band and dakka squad in an 1850 list. I just did it in battle scribe and had enough points to upgrade nobs to warbikes and mega armour warbosses. You're not getting trukks for the boys squads but I don't think that's the best way to run them.

The point of the above list is the dakka jets are more durable
The wing leader of the unit (which you always hit the closest model in a unit) will have a 3+ jink save and be either 12/10/10 or ignore 1/3 of all hits and if you take a dakkasquadron they also have tankhunter.

So, with Death From the Skies being out...do you guys want me to do a review/FAQ for it?

Yes, please!

Can you be objective?

Not true
You need to take an auxiliary anyway.
Heck you can fit a ghaz council, waagh band and dakka squad in an 1850 list. I just did it in battle scribe and had enough points to upgrade nobs to warbikes and mega armour warbosses. You're not getting trukks for the boys squads but I don't think that's the best way to run them.

The point of the above list is the dakka jets are more durable
The wing leader of the unit (which you always hit the closest model in a unit) will have a 3+ jink save and be either 12/10/10 or ignore 1/3 of all hits and if you take a dakkasquadron they also have tankhunter.

which means you have six boyz squads that don't have a nob, foot sloggin up the table. And when they actually get where they need to be? they probably die in CC.

With the list you specify here your basically left with a bunch of foot sloggin models that are easy to pick off or out distance for most armies, you have a ghaz death star which isn't at all frightening because it is walking to its target ohh but you do have a single unit of over costed nob bikeres, and you didn't say you upgraded any of them to PKs so once they get into CC they are useless for the most part as well. and you have 3 extremely flimsy Air planes that most armies Skyfire options will obliterate. Yea the Wing leader makes them a bit more durable but still not that durable, and who is to say that he will be the one getting shot at every single time?

 Mymearan wrote:
Yes, please!

Done

Crimson Devil wrote:Can you be objective?

A review is basically the definition of subjective, so I would hope not.

Kanluwen wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
Yes, please!

Done

Thanks Kan, reading now!

 JimOnMars wrote:
Rock paper scissors is the worst part of the game. How about Tactics? Wouldn't that be fun?

The dogfighting mechanics are not really paper/rock/scissors mechanics. By that definition, any game mechanic that requires you to attempt to guess what your opponent is going to do, and attempt to counter it, is paper/rock/scissors. You could just as easily say the dogfight mechanics are Tic-Tac-Toe mechanics, or Checkers mechanics, or Chess mechanics.

Dogfights are about anticipating what your opponent is going to do, which is exactly how the mechanics are set up. You have to think about the type of flyer your opponent is using and what actions would be most beneficial to them and then decide on your own course of action based on those same conditions. While its an unnecessary (which is why its optional) phase to a game that is already bloated, I can't fault them on the mechanic itself.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Rock paper scissors is the worst part of the game. How about Tactics? Wouldn't that be fun?

The dogfighting mechanics are not really paper/rock/scissors mechanics. By that definition, any game mechanic that requires you to attempt to guess what your opponent is going to do, and attempt to counter it, is paper/rock/scissors. You could just as easily say the dogfight mechanics are Tic-Tac-Toe mechanics, or Checkers mechanics, or Chess mechanics.

Dogfights are about anticipating what your opponent is going to do, which is exactly how the mechanics are set up. You have to think about the type of flyer your opponent is using and what actions would be most beneficial to them and then decide on your own course of action based on those same conditions. While its an unnecessary (which is why its optional) phase to a game that is already bloated, I can't fault them on the mechanic itself.

Yeah, but it's far easier to bash GW if you make out their rules to be simplistic and child like.

I actually really like the look of the dogfight phase now I've seen it, I agree with you on all the bloat, but it still looks kind of fun.

The point of the above list is the dakka jets are more durable
The wing leader of the unit (which you always hit the closest model in a unit) will have a 3+ jink save and be either 12/10/10 or ignore 1/3 of all hits and if you take a dakkasquadron they also have tankhunter.

I'm not sure.

....Reading page 60, they sound more like a 30k Dreadnought Talon; you have to deploy in coherency, but you 'operate as individual units' after deployment.

They're not a vehicle squadron; I'm not sure you have to apply hits to the closest vehicle. Vigilance Pattern still lets one ship protect another, but nothing stops you blowing away the escort rather than the lead, it just means you're ignoring the wing leader, or ignoring a loaded-for-bear stormraven in favour of a cheap-ass storm talon.

Or am I missing something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Except that again, your going from a 4+ Save to a 5+ save. Dakkajets are utter garbage anyway. 12 TL S6 shots at BS3 (against ground targets) isn't that good, on average your looking at around 9 hits, but for the same amount of points your paying for a dakka jet you could buy Warbikers and other scoring units that are more durable then an AV10/10/10 fighter.

Three dakkajets. Drop the four flyers into the 'box' formation and you get a 3++ save from the Kustom Force Field. Plus the Wazbom's tail gun is a twin-linked super-shoota turret with interceptor - okay it doesn't have skyfire, but that goes a long way to persuading incoming fighters to jink.

Also, the Wazbom has pursuit 4 - one better than Stormtalons and Stormravens, and on a par with the Stormhawk interceptor.

/rant So DA air superiority Nephilim Jetfighter have same stats as small Stormtalon and Stormhawk, and Stormhawk have +1 on it's stats in dogfights... Well played. /rant over

Yeah.... the Nephilim does look a bit fail compared to the Stormhawk:

The infernum halo launcher gives you rerolls on Jink - so essentially Ravenwing.

Both have a twin-linked heavy bolter.

The Twin-linked assault cannon outclasses the avenger - 5 shots is slightly outclassed by 4 shots twin-linked. Of course the avenger has a 48" range to the assault cannon's 24", and there's only a very minor difference in accuracy, so it's probably a wash. If forced to jink, though, the assault cannon is miles better.

The Nephilim's S7 blacksword missiles are not even slightly a match for the las-talon's three Icarus shots, and that's ignoring the fact that they're one use. Both have skyfire as an integral rule, so can be used in a dogfight in a head-on pass without trouble.

The Nephilim really falls flat on its face when you look at the cost and armour, though. If you allow for the firepower being more or less the same, the fact that you're paying ~50 points less and get armour 12 frontal armour on the 'hawk just seems insane.

It does have two things going for it, though.

The Blacksword's unlimited range in dogfights is nice, though. If you can win the intercept phase - not easy but not impossible - you can up the range to 48" - meaning blackshards and avenger can fire, whilst the las-talons (if it's got them) are the only thing a Stormhawk can muster. Sadly, it's much more likely that the stormhawk will win, but you should remember that the assault cannons only get to fire if it wins, whilst all the Nephilim's guns get to fire regardless.

Plus, the Nephilim has strafing run, which the Stormhawk doesn't. That means BS4 attacking ground targets, not BS3. Combined with the extra range of the avenger, it may allow you to avoid closer range, and hence not take things like rapid-fired plasma weapons or tesla fire. Plus, because Blackswords are One Use Only, they benefit from Bunker Buster in the Tactical Strike mission, which essentially gives them armourbane and makes them a viable weapon against the objectives where a Stormhawk is stuck with a couple of BS3 lascannon shots.


I'm not going to argue it's not new model syndrome and/or favoured army syndrome. The Stormhawk is pretty much the nastiest thing in the air despite also being one of the cheapest and (with an AV12 front) one of the toughest.

The dogfight rules and air war missions are cool, though, and I'm looking forward to giving them a try. I'll be interested to see if we get an Imperial Armour/Horus Heresy Aeronautica update to match it.