Regression of Technology

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**IllumiNini**

Hey guys,

It still strikes me as extremely odd that the Imperium as a whole is derping out with technology and somehow regressing quite a bit over the course of 30K to 40K. How does the Imperium no manage to reverse-engineer a whole bunch of technologies like pre-30K Plasma Generators and Weaponry? And how does the reclamation of worlds and/or STC machines seem to be the main way in which the Imperium makes big leaps in the advancement of technology?

Also according to this page, there's a Ordo of the Inquisition that is responsible for redacting records from the Imperium. Do people think this is at all cannon? Or one of those things that got added in by fans to this particular Wiki? Because if this Ordo is cannon, then they would go a long way in explaining the technological regression (at least in part).

What are your thoughts on this?

Cheers Guys

**Vitali Advenil**

The main reason they can't reverse-engineer things is because dismantling technology is seen as heresy. They believe in machine spirits (which are actually thing) that live in every machine. Therefore, dismantling or experimenting with a battle cruiser to see how it would would damage or kill the machine spirit, which is sacrilege. The adeptus mechanicus would come down hard on any faction that experimented with technology like that.

**locarno24**

It's also hard to find examples that would be available to do this. You could try to disassemble an archaeotech plasma core providing power to a pre-imperial hive.....but only by cutting power to the hive and hence killing 99% of the inhabitants.

Equally, without knowing how it works and lacking understanding of how it's made, you can't disassemble it safely.
The mechanicus did try to experiment on an Archeotech warp core on the moon of Ganeymede. Ganeymede isn't there anymore.

The biggest loss of knowledge was the 'death of innocence' on mars. Literally about 60% of mankinds technical and science theory got wiped at the outset of the heresy.

Thats the big problem really - reverse engineering needs the underlying theoretical science and thats been lost too. It's not like Ford reverse engineering a BMW to try and make it work, it's more like an engineer in the 1890s trying to reverse engineer a nuclear reactor - he'd be dead of radiation poisoning and wouldn't even understand why.

**IllumiNini**

Vitali Advenil wrote:The main reason they can't reverse-engineer things is because dismantling technology is seen as heresy. They believe in machine spirits (which are actually thing) that live in every machine. Therefore, dismantling or experimenting with a battle cruiser to see how it would would damage or kill the machine spirit, which is sacrilege. The adeptus mechanicus would come down hard on any faction that experimented with technology like that.

Nobody Expects the Ad Mech Inquisition! haha

But yeah, that makes sense.

locarno24 wrote:The biggest loss of knowledge was the 'death of innocence' on mars. Literally about 60% of mankinds technical and science theory got wiped at the outset of the heresy.

Though it seems odd that they can't simply rediscover it. I mean, they've had 10,000 years (give or take) to do so. So I feel the HH should have been a set back for these technologies rather than a "They've been lost forever!" sort of deal.

locarno24 wrote:Thats the big problem really - reverse engineering needs the underlying theoretical science and thats been lost too. It's not like Ford reverse engineering a BMW to try and make it work, it's more like an engineer in the 1890s trying to reverse engineer a nuclear reactor - he'd be dead of radiation poisoning and wouldn't even understand why.

Fair enough. Queue Marie Curie haha.

I get the feeling that taking baby steps combined with developing more theories and whatnot would help them (ever-so-slowly) with this, though. For example, The Imperium may not be able to reverse engineer or replicate the more efficient versions of a plasma core for space-faring vessels, but lets say they have a Plasma Gun. Then they find an STC that makes a more efficient version of the plasma gun. These changes are studied, theories are developed, and then this technology can be understood. This process can then continue up until the most advance forms of Plasma Generators/Cores/etc.

I might be wrong though. It just strikes me as weird that they lose all this technology and then suddenly become incapable of ever developing it ever again. It's so counter-intuitive and against all logic haha.

**oldravenman3025**

IllumiNini wrote:
Hey guys,

It still strikes me as extremely odd that the Imperium as a whole is derping out with technology and somehow regressing quite a bit over the course of 30K to 40K. How does the Imperium no manage to reverse-engineer a whole bunch of technologies like pre-30K Plasma Generators and Weaponry? And how does the reclamation of worlds and/or STC machines seem to be the main way in which the Imperium makes big leaps in the advancement of technology?

Also according to this page, there's a Ordo of the Inquisition that is responsible for redacting records from the Imperium. Do people think this is at all cannon? Or one of those things that got added in by fans to this particular Wiki? Because if this Ordo is cannon, then they would go a long way in explaining the technological regression (at least in part).

What are your thoughts on this?

Cheers Guys

The regression really didn't get going full swing until after the Age of Apostasy, when the slide into decadence and grimdark accelerated.

And stuff that's been out of production for millennia is starting to make a come back in increasing numbers, such as the Storm Eagle and Fire Raptor. This is a good indicator of production restarting somewhere.

Since then, on occasion, you would see some innovation, or field modification become de-facto standard. That's how the Imperium got some new Baneblade variants and the Leman Russ Conqueror variant.

As others have pointed out, the Mechanicus is an obstacle to recovery since their descent into orthodoxy by the 41st Millennium. They are painstakingly slow in approving new products for production (STCs or not), and innovation is seen as heresy and dangerous by many in the Machine Cult. But you do have some forge worlds that do their own thing regardless of what Mars wants. And some factions, like the Blood Angels and Imperial Guard, do come up with unapproved hardware that get's pressed into service.

As for the Inquisition, any uber-tech goodies they rediscover or develop is usually kept in-house for their own use. Looking at the high tech gear used by the Deathwatch and Grey Knights is a good example of this.

**godardc**

Don't forget that some tech are "exclusive" to certain Forge World.
When the FW is lost, so is the tech...

**Lord_Inquisitor_Doge**

godardc wrote:
Don't forget that some tech are "exclusive" to certain Forge World.
When the FW is lost, so is the tech...

Which is the real issue with the Adeptus Mechanicus. All of their fundamentalist philosophies actually make sense, if looked at from a certain angle, and proper consideration is given to humanity's past (machines literally becoming Daemons, Iron Men, etc.). If the AdMech were to share its STCs between Forge Worlds, then the technology wouldn't be lost, even if a few Forge Worlds fell, and then we would have a logical sort of technological progression, instead of the slow backslide that exists in the AdMech's current state.

**SagesStone**

IllumiNini wrote:
Vitali Advenil wrote:The main reason they can't reverse-engineer things is because dismantling technology is seen as heresy. They believe in machine spirits (which are actually thing) that live in every machine. Therefore, dismantling or experimenting with a battle cruiser to see how it would would damage or kill the machine spirit, which is sacrilege. The adeptus mechanicus would come down hard on any faction that experimented with technology like that.

Nobody Expects the Ad Mech Inquisition! haha

But yeah, that makes sense.

locarno24 wrote:The biggest loss of knowledge was the 'death of innocence' on mars. Literally about 60% of mankinds technical and science theory got wiped at the outset of the heresy.

Though it seems odd that they can't simply rediscover it. I mean, they've had 10,000 years (give or take) to do so. So I feel the HH should have been a set back for these technologies rather than a "They've been lost forever!" sort of deal.

The loss was caused by a virus that corrupted a lot of what they have. Basically they kind of have a lot of the plans for the tech on Mars along with many many things they like to keep locked away forever there, but they search off world for uncorrupted versions of the plans because the way in which the ones they can get on Mars are corrupted are likely to kill them if they make them. Like they could think they've found the plans for a plasma generator only for it to turn out to be a giant bomb that goes off the moment it's completed. Given they also don't have the knowledge as it's basically degraded into prayer, the prayers actually tell them what to do as they chant them usually; but they don't seem to understand the meaning of it anymore.

I like this explanation:

"The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology. They haven't been living on some fancy paradise planet since pre-Fall. Mars is an anarchic nightmare gakhole the moment you leave the safe zones into the kilometres of labyrinthine corridors beneath it full of rogue machinery, self-aware and malevolent AI from before the Fall, and the daemon programs of the Heresy. EVERYTHING in the databases is fethed. The databases are fragmented over the entire surface to the extent that it would be impossible to see one tenth of the total files in the ludicrously extended life of a Magos even assuming that they are completely safe to visit. And they are not.

The files have been corrupted into madness by the Fall, and the unleashing of the most potent informational warfare systems ever to exist to defeat the Iron Men. Nearly all of Mars was rendered uninhabitable, what they live in now is built on the top of the ruins. They send archeotech expeditions in to find gak, nearly all of them never come back. The sheer number of rogue war machine running around in there is sufficient to rape the mind. Then came the Heresy, which was not earth-exclusive. Mars as the second most critical planet in the Imperium was the site of fighting nearly as ferocious as on Terra, with Mechanicus loyalists and Hereteks fighting tooth, nail, and mechadendrite everywhere. Ancient machines were unleashed, viruses both normal and daemonic unleashed into all the computer systems. Towards the close of the Heresy, Rogal Dorn sent some Space Marine operatives to wipe the planet clean of all life. Nearly every single stored record on Mars was rendered unusable, and those that survived are half the time self-aware and don't like you, or daemonic and actively try to kill you.

If you come back with a schematic, it is almost certainly gibberish, and if it isn't, it's probably corrupted into uselessness. If it does come back whole it was probably malevolently fethed with so that instead of a Lasgun power cell it's a fething grenade set to detonate the second you finish building it. Why do you think they want off-world STCs so damned much if they had them all here? The fething Heresy is why. Off-world they only have to contend with the Fall's war and its effects on the machinery plus twenty thousand years of degradation with no maintenance. But at least off-world it'll probably just not work instead of actively seeking to kill you.

Why do you think they seek to placate the Machine Spirit? It's because it exists. The fragments of trillions of self-aware programs, flourishing during the Dark Age of Technology and shattered by Man in his war with the Iron men, imprisoning the few who had not set themselves irrevocably into the machinery, a prison smashed wide open by the Heresy. Everything that can hold programming in the Imperium has a shard of a program in it. EVERYTHING. And you'd better fething please it or it will do everything in its power to make your day gak. Sure, if it's a Lasgun it'll just not work or start shooting off rounds by itself, but if you piss off a Land Raider you can say bye-bye to half a continent. They apply these principles to things without spirits by habit, since they're so used to dealing with tanks that if not talked to just right might go rogue and annihilate the Manufactorum before they can be killed.

This is why they do not like ANYONE fething with technology, because it is so rare to find anything that just works it is critical it not be compromised. That, and they do not have the actual knowledge to feth with it intelligently, just through experimentation, which inevitably leads to slaughter. Pressing buttons to see what works is fine in a 21st century computer, but it is a very stupid thing to do at the helm of a 410th century starship with the destructive power to end solar systems. The entire knowledge base of humanity was lost. Not forgotten, but outright lost. Everything at all, poof. Nobody knows anything because the Fall fethed everything up and the Heresy double fethed it. To rebuild the theoretical framework needed to design new technologies that don't kill everyone near them would require starting from the ground up. They don't have the time, they never have, and they never will.

This gets on to the point of war and what it does to technology. Someone will parrot that it makes it go much faster. Yes, it makes practical applications of technology go much faster. It also utterly stops all research on the scientific theories behind those technologies. This means that when war chugs along for a decade or two things get done. It means when it goes on too long you run out of theories to turn into technologies, and then you run out of technologies to apply. You stagnate. When you have been fighting in a war for survival in a drastically overextended empire, this is what happens. You are desperate for any extra materiel that can possibly be produced. Half your entire fething military might went rogue, smashed the half that stayed and a whole swathe of the logistical side of your society, leaving you with the tattered shreds of a war machine to keep hold of an empire that was reaching straining point with an army far larger. There is no time for the sort of applied research programs that took Man twenty five thousand years to develop, in a time of unprecedented growth and prosperity.

This is also why the Adeptus Mechanicus insists on cargo cultism. It's because when you are dealing with things you barely understand because everything you knew about them was destroyed it is the safest and most reliable option. The rituals do not exists for mysticism, they exist because they are the most practical means of building, repairing and maintaining the equipment they have with the knowledge surviving. You don't understand why pressing that button makes it go, because the manual tried to take over your brain and the copies are all unreadable and the research base that would let you reverse-engineer it does not exist and cannot be built.

Why are the Tau doing so well with their technology? Because they had peace. Eight thousand years unmolested by any enemy and they were helped the entire time by the most advanced biological race in the galaxy. Give the Imperium eight thousand years of peace and I can guarantee you it will be harder than it was during the Great Crusade.

Since some still don't get the idea, try this:

Build a library, fill it with all human knowledge. You take it elsewhere when you need a book from it, but the book is only a simplified copy. You don't understand the real book, and you don't need to. Nobody takes the real books anywhere because why would you, when there's a whole library there?

Now that library goes rogue and the maintenance machinery starts killing everyone any-fething-where near it. Where the feth did they all come from, you swear to god there weren't this many, and there weren't because they're using the library's information to fight their war. The government fights a battle that destroys the planet against these robots and tears apart the library to stop them using it, only to be destroyed in the process. The library is leveled, cast into flames, every book burned and every computer virus-laden.

Then comes a man who worked there. He talks to the few surviving library workers, assembles their information, and starts rebuilding a city around the library and expanding it as the librarians find little scraps of paper and fragmented bits of files that stuck together just right read something. They rebuild a library from scrap on the ashes of the old. It isn't a shadow on the glory of the old, but it is all they have.

Then the city turns on itself, kills its master, and the librarians turn to rage. Half of them kill the other half and destroy the remnants of the library because where they're going they won't need science. Everything burns, and the city is left to a scattered few survivors, walls open to the world, with the hungry predators circling.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is the sole surviving librarian, desperately scrabbling through the ashes of paper and splinters of hard drives for anything to help him and the city he needs to survive just a second longer.

The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single gak decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a gak life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die." --Baron von Evilsatan

**oldravenman3025**

Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:
godardc wrote:
Don't forget that some tech are "exclusive" to certain Forge World.
When the FW is lost, so is the tech...

Which is the real issue with the Adeptus Mechanicus. All of their fundamentalist philosophies actually make sense, if looked at from a certain angle, and proper consideration is given to humanity's past (machines literally becoming Daemons, Iron Men, etc.). If the AdMech were to share its STCs between Forge Worlds, then the technology wouldn't be lost, even if a few Forge Worlds fell, and then we would have a logical sort of technological progression, instead of the slow backslide that exists in the AdMech's current state.

The various Forge Worlds tend to act more like competing corporations, even when dealing with the "spiritual center" of their faith (Mars). The write-up on the Macharius Heavy Tank reads almost like a Lockheed-Martin business plan that ended up paying off.

**Psienesis**

They do make some small, incremental advances now and then, but given the fact that Mankind was once driven to the brink of extinction by its own technology, they proceed very, very slowly and very, very carefully.

However, the biggest obstacle facing the AdMech is a lack of spares for many systems (if you have a Warp Drive, there is a warship that needs it yesterday) and, as well, lack of knowledge of how things actually work. They know, through rote memorization of procedure, that if you insert Tab A into Slot B enough times, you eventually end up with a Warp Drive... they just do not understand many (or any) of the underlying principles of the function of Tab A or Slot B. Since they need all of those devices in active service all the time, there's no way to get enough materials to just experiment on them to figure out how they work.

As well, the Machine Spirits that reside in many of the advanced systems are temperamental, and take a very dim view of being tampered with. If it's a cogitator, it might not function... if it's a tank, it might level your entire factory.

I might be wrong though. It just strikes me as weird that they lose all this technology and then suddenly become incapable of ever developing it ever again. It's so counter-intuitive and against all logic haha.

This has actually happened in the real-world, however. Not because of a loss of knowledge, actually, but a change in understanding of how certain things (in this case the disease called scurvy) worked. There's a pretty good article on how the cure for scurvy was discovered... and then lost:

http://idlewords.com/2010/03/scott_and_scurvy.htm

**IllumiNini**

n0t_u wrote:
The loss was caused by a virus that corrupted a lot of what they have. Basically they kind of have a lot of the plans for the tech on Mars along with many many things they like to keep locked away forever there, but they search off world for uncorrupted versions of the plans because the way in which the ones they can get on Mars are corrupted are likely to kill them if they make them. Like they could think they've found the plans for a plasma generator only for it to turn out to be a giant bomb that goes off the moment it's completed. Given they also don't have the knowledge as it's basically degraded into prayer, the prayers actually tell them what to do as they chant them usually; but they don't seem to understand the meaning of it anymore.

But all of that doesn't preclude them from making discoveries pertaining to new technologies, even if it was only a relative few things. Loss of something does not preclude it's rediscovery.

n0t_u wrote:
I like this explanation:

"The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology....

Sounds good, but I don't like the bits about the Machine Spirit. That explanation makes it sound like the Machine Spirit is way too temperamental to have any practical use, which would in turn means that most technology would be too unreliable for practical use. Also, there was this statement:

To rebuild the theoretical framework needed to design new technologies that don't kill everyone near them would require starting from the ground up. They don't have the time, they never have, and they never will.

They wouldn't have to start from the ground up. That's like saying "We need to develop the next generation of Internal Combustion Engines, but we can't use the ones we have now (in 2016) as a basis. No! We must start from the ground up!", and that's just stupid. Also, why would they never have the time? They had the time once before, and unless you can guarantee the galaxy is going to end and swallow all of the Imperium with it before they have they have enough time to replicate all of the tech, then they will always have the time to do it again.

**SagesStone**

IllumiNini wrote:
n0t_u wrote:
The loss was caused by a virus that corrupted a lot of what they have. Basically they kind of have a lot of the plans for the tech on Mars along with many many things they like to keep locked away forever there, but they search off world for uncorrupted versions of the plans because the way in which the ones they can get on Mars are corrupted are likely to kill them if they make them. Like they could think they've found the plans for a plasma generator only for it to turn out to be a giant bomb that goes off the moment it's completed. Given they also don't have the knowledge as it's basically degraded into prayer, the prayers actually tell them what to do as they chant them usually; but they don't seem to understand the meaning of it anymore.

But all of that doesn't preclude them from making discoveries pertaining to new technologies, even if it was only a relative few things. Loss of something does not preclude it's rediscovery.

n0t_u wrote:
I like this explanation:

"The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology....

Sounds good, but I don't like the bits about the Machine Spirit. That explanation makes it sound like the Machine Spirit is way too temperamental to have any practical use, which would in turn means that most technology would be too unreliable for practical use. Also, there was this statement:

To rebuild the theoretical framework needed to design new technologies that don't kill everyone near them would require starting from the ground up. They don't have the time, they never have, and they never will.

They wouldn't have to start from the ground up. That's like saying "We need to develop the next generation of Internal Combustion Engines, but we can't use the ones we have now (in 2016) as a basis. No! We must start from the ground up!", and that's just stupid. Also, why would they never have the time? They had the time once before, and unless you can guarantee the galaxy is going to end and swallow all of the Imperium with it before they have they have enough time to replicate all of the tech, then they will always have the time to do it again.

It's accurate though, the machine spirits are very temperamental. Why do you think they toss servitors into everything instead of trying to put more machine spirits into things? They try to limit the control over the machine the spirit has this way just in case. They're impractical that they are, but it's still the best they have. They shun artificial intelligence over mechanical intelligence because of the past.

They don't have the time to research, and they don't have the blueprints to research nor the understanding under it. They have some scraps, but they're right to be hesitant of using any they find on mars due to how corrupted they are. For all they know building a warpcore from a STC found on Mars could send Mars into the warp or just make a warp gate and allow chaos to have a way to bypass cadia and assault Earth straight from Mars. We don't have to start from the ground up because we understand what makes a combustion engine work; they have it and they know how to turn it on and that's about it they have no spares to tinker with for learning.

They do actually innovate but it is always a slight modification to what already exists if anything, like tank variants mostly. But given they've been hit twice by technology turning on them; the Men of Iron event almost wiped humanity out and chaos wasn't even involved that time if I remember right. The age of strife where the men of iron happened went for about 5,000-7,000 years (started around M23-25 ended in M30), I'm not sure how long that part of it lasted but they only barely managed to stop it in the first place. The second fall of technology, the death of innocence happened right at the start of the heresy and it was daemonic. They actually were at the point of innovating there as you can see in the Mechanicum book, but that came to bite them in the ass in the end too which is why they would be more hesitant now. The daemonic virus was unleashed from some storage vault they opened and it did stuff like corrupting the minds of magos, titan legions turned with it and it spread like crazy all over mars through the Noosphere; basically they had just got back to the point of reinventing the internet although a more advanced version at least.

They should be more advanced than they are, but the safeguards they have in place because of these two events combined with their attention needing to be elsewhere and more as a factory constantly resupplying rather than a think tank keeps them stagnated for now. They're not thinking, they're just doing.

**IllumiNini**

n0t_u wrote:
It's accurate though, the machine spirits are very temperamental. Why do you think they toss servitors into everything instead of trying to put more machine spirits into things? They try to limit the control over the machine the spirit has this way just in case. They're impractical that they are, but it's still the best they have. They shun artificial intelligence over mechanical intelligence because of the past.

It may be 100% right, but it still seems odd to me.

n0t_u wrote:
They don't have the time to research, and they don't have the blueprints to research nor the understanding under it.

Why do they not have the time to find a "Safe" baseline to start from and then work back up from there? I mean consider this:

-- Humanity built themselves up technologically speaking to the point where the whole Men of Iron thing happened. Did they have existing blue-prints to work with? No. They just continued advancing their understanding of technology base on what they had. Why does the whole Men of Iron thing and the HH prevent them from doing that again?

-- Why do they not have the time?

Because I see very little reason why they don't. Tyranids up-scaling their invasion of the galaxy? I never really though much of Tyranid fluff because it's so wildly stupid, unnecessary and over-powered, so I'm choosing to ignore that due to it's sheer stupidity. Chaos finally winning out in a Black Crusade? That doesn't necessarily have to happen during the 13th BC.

Not to mention the fact that it was roughly 20,000 years between now and when the start of the Age of Strife, meaning that if we take the Age of Apostasy as the starting point, the Imperium is already a quarter of the way there in terms of the time frame, but have a more advanced level of technology from which to draw a basis from.

So "Not having the time!" is, in my opinion, a total lie and complete feth.

n0t_u wrote:
They should be more advanced than they are, but the safeguards they have in place because of these two events combined with their attention needing to be elsewhere and more as a factory constantly resupplying rather than a think tank keeps them stagnated for now. They're not thinking, they're just doing.

This is reasonably fair, but I still maintain that there should be enough of an R&D side to the AD Mech and other branches of the Imperium that would allow for more advancement than they have achieved, even with the safe guards.

**SagesStone**

There should be, but a bunch think its heretical to modify another think it's heretical to study xeno tech etc.

Each BC had a different objective and it wasn't always attack Earth.

Fact is religion in the imperium holds back technology as well as the long lasting stalemate they're in. Both of those things humanity didn't have the first time around, but then they also didn't have existing things they could study so while they should be a bit slower it's far too slow.

And the way the MoI and HH affect is they don't prevent, they just make them cautious as hell about technology in general. They still apparently have MoI locked away somewhere in Mars just waiting to be accidentally found to escape to start that fun off all over again and probably some daemonically possessed machines too. It's the constant reminders that they are still dealing with that are holding them back from getting over it a bit and not being so afraid to innovate more radically.

Really it wouldn't be as grimdark either, but I'm also tired of everything getting explained away as tech being lost cause they seem to be losing it all the time still.

**BrianDavion**

the thing you have to keep in mind about the Admech...

They are a RELIGION Religions by definition aren't always rational about some things. they belive things because they belive it, and the admech belives that innovation is bad and that STC recovery is the only way to create new things. hence they don't do it. it's a matter of faith.

**Jehan-reznor**

Yes and no, like in the Inquisition there are different factions in the Admech, those that strictly adhere, to ? by not investigating new technology, but also those that seek out new, or experiment, or investigate xenos tech.

**TheWanderer**

Elsewhere I read a very good explanation of this but I cant find it now so I will paraphrase it very much.

Think of the sum total of human knowledge at its height to be a library of books.

That library is burnt to the ground and afterwards mankind started to piece together parts of the ash to make another library.

That library got nuked and then mankind pieced together from the lumps of glowing radioactive ash another library.

They then decided that any lumps of radioactive ash where objects of religious excitement and must be "religiously" guarded and not in anyway changed on pain of death and anything other than these lumps of radioactive ash were a heresy that should be punished by death.

this leads us nicely to today

**IllumiNini**

BrianDavion wrote:the thing you have to keep in mind about the Admech...

They are a RELIGION Religions by definition aren't always rational about some things. they belive things because they belive it, and the admech belives that innovation is bad and that STC recovery is the only way to create new things. hence they don't do it. it's a matter of faith.

Were you typing on a phone? haha

But I see your point. I would also argue that (as somebody mentioned before, I think) some Forge Worlds aren't as strict and/or religious, and can effectively operate independently of the Ad Mech. Plus, not all technological advancements come from Forge Worlds and not all technological advancements have to be strictly digital (e.g. they could be medicine related), so not all technological advancements have to be included under the umbrella of Forge Worlds and the Ad Mech.

TheWanderer wrote:Elsewhere I read a very good explanation of this but I cant find it now so I will paraphrase it very much.

Think of the sum total of human knowledge at its height to be a library of books.

That library is burnt to the ground and afterwards mankind started to piece together parts of the ash to make another library.

That library got nuked and then mankind pieced together from the lumps of glowing radioactive ash another library.

They then decided that any lumps of radioactive ash where objects of religious excitement and must be "religiously" guarded and not in anyway changed on pain of death and anything other than these lumps of radioactive ash were a heresy that should be punished by death.

this leads us nicely to today

I feel this is a stereotype and an oversimplified umbrella that doesn't necessarily blanket the whole Imperium. Nevertheless, it's entertaining (if nothing else

)

**Iracundus**

People need to stop approaching 40K with a modern mindset, because naturally the actions of the AdMech seem silly from the viewpoint of a 21st century person with ideas of rationalism and progress.

The Adeptus Mechanicus and even the Mechanicum before it, is closer to pre-modern mindsets that looked back to a Golden Age (real or imagined). In such a worldview, the ancients already discovered and created everything possible or worth knowing and making. Original research is viewed as hubris because it implies you know better or could know better than the ancients. Thus in such a paradigm, research is more archaeology. It is rediscovering or re-interpreting what was already discovered. The Adeptus Mechanicus holds the STC to be the sum total of all knowledge. Anything therefore by their religious dogma has to be portrayed as either from the STC or an allowed for variation on an existing STC design (whether or not this is really the case or whether it is actually an example of original research and design). The goal is not progress forward into the future, but rather a return to this idealized past Golden Age.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is also essentially a mystery cult. It does not share its knowledge with the masses, or even within itself freely. The senior Tech-Priests are like gurus with maybe at best a few apprentices that might hope to become privy to the higher mysteries. If anything unexpected should happen to the Tech-Priest, knowledge would easily be lost if it has not already been passed on to his disciples. The Tech-Priests also feud among themselves in at least covert conflict. In such an environment, knowledge does not flow freely rendering it hard to reconstruct the knowledge and technology base. That is how Forge Worlds can end up with unique designs or specialties, because they hoard their special knowledge in order to retain their power. Ryza for example is known to be skilled with plasma technology, but that just means it exports more plasma technology while keeping the best for itself. It does not help uplift other Forge Worlds to the same level of expertise.

The scientific mindset seems to have died or become corrupted by the 40K era. Even those that dream of progress, like the Dark Heresy RPG group the Logicians, are more like wild eyed mad scientist tropes conducting "experiments" of dubious scientific value rather than real research with peer review and sharing of information. In the 40K universe, the 21st century viewpoint would be viewed as full of hubris (for daring to aspire to be more than the ancients), impious (for not honoring machine spirits), and dangerous (for sharing knowledge and technology with the common people rather than keeping it in the hands of those that know better).

**IllumiNini**

Iracundus wrote:
People need to stop approaching 40K with a modern mindset, because naturally the actions of the AdMech seem silly from the viewpoint of a 21st century person with ideas of rationalism and progress.

And how else are we supposed to think about it? This is a fictional universe based on the imaginations of people who have lived and worked this hobby during the last 30 odd years or however long this hobby has been running (in all honesty, I have no idea exactly how long this hobby has been going). None of us know what it's like to live 38,000 years from now, let alone in the specific universe that's been created.

My point is that it's hard to consider it from anything other than the mindset of our current existence without getting extremely subjective, so telling us we "need" to think differently is not something you can really tell us to do.

Iracundus wrote:
The Adeptus Mechanicus and even the Mechanicum before it, is closer to pre-modern mindsets that looked back to a Golden Age (real or imagined). In such a worldview, the ancients already discovered and created everything possible or worth knowing and making. Original research is viewed as hubris because it implies you know better or could know better than the ancients. Thus in such a paradigm, research is more archaeology. It is rediscovering or re-interpreting what was already discovered. The Adeptus Mechanicus holds the STC to be the sum total of all knowledge. Anything therefore by their religious dogma has to be portrayed as either from the STC or an allowed for variation on an existing STC design (whether or not this is really the case or whether it is actually an example of original research and design). The goal is not progress forward into the future, but rather a return to this idealized past Golden Age.

The Adeptus Mechanicus is also essentially a mystery cult. It does not share its knowledge with the masses, or even within itself freely. The senior Tech-Priests are like gurus with maybe at best a few apprentices that might hope to become privy to the higher mysteries. If anything unexpected should happen to the Tech-Priest, knowledge would easily be lost if it has not already been passed on to his disciples. The Tech-Priests also feud among themselves in at least covert conflict. In such an environment, knowledge does not flow freely rendering it hard to reconstruct the knowledge and technology base. That is how Forge Worlds can end up with unique designs or specialties, because they hoard their special knowledge in order to retain their power. Ryza for example is known to be skilled with plasma technology, but that just means it exports more plasma technology while keeping the best for itself. It does not help uplift other Forge Worlds to the same level of expertise.

The scientific mindset seems to have died or become corrupted by the 40K era. Even those that dream of progress, like the Dark Heresy RPG group the Logicians, are more like wild eyed mad scientist tropes conducting "experiments" of dubious scientific value rather than real research with peer review and sharing of information. In the 40K universe, the 21st century viewpoint would be viewed as full of hubris (for daring to aspire to be more than the ancients), impious (for not honoring machine spirits), and dangerous (for sharing knowledge and technology with the common people rather than keeping it in the hands of those that know better).

And how exactly did you come to all of this? What source(s) led you to believe in this?

Because from what I know as well as the way most people I know talk about this, not many people seem to share your view point.

**locarno24**

Actually that's a pretty good summary of how the Adeptus Mechanicus mindset was described in the Inquisitor board game, Priests Of Mars trilogy, Horus Heresy novels, and even the original Rogue Trader 40k rules.

The whole reason the 'explorator' exists is the Adeptus Mechanicus' fundamental beliefs that all knowledge has been discovered, and you just need to find it (e.g. leftover STC fragments) rather than trying to recreate it, which is tampering with the 'sacred order of things' or some such.

**Iracundus**

IllumiNini wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
People need to stop approaching 40K with a modern mindset, because naturally the actions of the AdMech seem silly from the viewpoint of a 21st century person with ideas of rationalism and progress.

And how else are we supposed to think about it? This is a fictional universe based on the imaginations of people who have lived and worked this hobby during the last 30 odd years or however long this hobby has been running (in all honesty, I have no idea exactly how long this hobby has been going). None of us know what it's like to live 38,000 years from now, let alone in the specific universe that's been created.

My point is that it's hard to consider it from anything other than the mindset of our current existence without getting extremely subjective, so telling us we "need" to think differently is not something you can really tell us to do.

Of course I can. To think that the viewpoint of the 21st century rationalist is the only one we can get our minds around is extremely parochial. We know to some extent how pre-modern ancient people thought from their writings, and how they believed from what is written of their religions including that of mystery cults. The viewpoint of the Adeptus Mechanicus is far closer to the pre-modern mindset and mystery than it is to modern research. It is one of faith and dogma and parallels how ancient people saw the world. If you find that difficult to believe, I suggest you go read up on some more ancient history. Even movies, such as The Name of the Rose in its antagonist's viewpoint on knowledge, portrays this pre-modern pre-scientific view. There is an entire RPG line, Ars Magica, that centers around portraying living in a medieval world with a medieval mindset.

40K despite being set in the future is a mishmash of ideas and tropes borrowing from the past. In particular, the Imperium and its constituent parts borrows heavily from medieval Europe or at least a stereotypical version of it as understood by the general public. Among them is the pre-modern pre-scientific viewpoint of knowledge.

And how exactly did you come to all of this? What source(s) led you to believe in this?

Because from what I know as well as the way most people I know talk about this, not many people seem to share your view point.

You must hang around some strange people then because what I wrote is pretty much the mainstream view of the Adeptus Mechanicus. I will not be citing every single thing written about the Adeptus Mechanicus since the 1980's just on your demand. I have already referred to the Dark Heresy RPG and the Logicians, which are detailed on p. 40 onwards of the supplement Disciples of the Dark Gods. There are numerous sources scattered throughout, but there is one good encapsulation given in Forge World's Imperial Armour Volume 1

The Adeptus Mechanicus see anything involving STC designs as reflections of the will and divinity of the Machine God and, ultimately, the Emperor himself. To change them would be heresy, a challenge to the will of the gods, and is unthinkable for a faithful servant. Innovation is seen as deeply suspicious and strongly discouraged, even for those few who might have the skills to attempt it. Many of the most advanced forms of technology are considered as 'black' technology and outlawed, surrounded by superstition. Any who dabble in forbidden technology risk the strongest sanctions. All offences carry harsh penalties. With such an attitude, new or better technology is not seen as the solution to the dangers facing Mankind, many sub-cults within the Adeptus Mechanicus actually seem to fear it as one of the dangers. Simply developing better, bigger, more accurate weapons does not occur to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Problems are solved by brute force (i.e. use more men, manpower being one of the Imperium's greatest resources) or through blind faith (the Emperor will eventually protect Mankind, and if he does not then it was because our faith was weak!). The obtaining of knowledge through experimentation and scientific method has been replaced by faith, which requires no proof or evidence, only trust in the truth of the doctrine of the Machine God.

...Rather than striving toemulate former achievements through experimentation and research, science is now an achaelogical study.

p.9-10, Imperial Armour Volume 1

The factionalism within the Adeptus Mechanicus (and its predecessor the Mechanicum) is also well documented so I suggest you do more research yourself. They do not share STC data or necessarily cooperate, and may have their own private interests. The following are but some extracts since again I will not repeat several decades of quotes just because of one forum request:

Whilst all Forge Worlds strive to adhere to the dictates of the Cult of the Machine, one world's idea of faithful adherence can differ from another, especially if separated by thousands of light years. One Forge World may interpret the laws differently, believing their version is correct. This affects vehicle designs from one FOrge World to the next. Slight changes and variations of style do occur. Theologists within the Cult of the Machine will argue the validity of any changes, but try as he might, the Fabricator-General cannot control what happens on every far-flung Forge World.

p. 11, Imperial Armour Volume 1

Although progress has been slow and fraught with difficulty, Gryphonne IV and Stygies VIII have both resurrected their own versions of the Vanquisher on...The rulers of Gryphonne IV and Stygies VIII have never allowed comparative tests to take place.

p. 31, Imperial Armour Volume 1

Not every Forge WOrld has access to the STC data required to manufacture true Shadowswords...

p. 99, Imperial Armour Volume 1

...each Forge World in the days of the Great Crusade was an independent power; a kingdom in its own right. While each owed fealty to the Lords of the Red Planet, in some cases these bonds were as absolute as satrapies, while in others the ties to the Mechanicum's seat of power were weaker, often simply through distance, and in the most extreme cases this fealty became questionable at best, and rivalry and the threat of rebellion against central control or internecine conflict distinctly possible...

The proof of this hidden disunity was given unequivocal form during the Horus Heresy, when just as the Imperium was riven by the treachery of the Warmaster, so was the mechanicum, already rife with internal discord and disharmony, all too readily riven alongside it...It was of this complex feudal structure, both on the macro-scale which encompassed whole Forge Worlds and alliances of Forge Worlds, and on the local scale of orders, colleges, fanes, and forge cities, that the Taghmata system was a direct reflection.

Each Forge World of this age was itself a patchwork web of complex loyalties, made up of independent and semi-independent domains, both in terms of physical infrastructure and territory and, perhaps more importantly, of knowledge, craft and sacred rite...While nomenclature and structure was hardly uniform between them, the masters of these empires were its Magos and Archmagos...each were lords both temporal and spiritual whose power was that of life and death in their own domains.

p. 200-201, Forge World's [i]Horus Heresy Book Three

**IllumiNini**

Iracundus wrote:
IllumiNini wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
People need to stop approaching 40K with a modern mindset, because naturally the actions of the AdMech seem silly from the viewpoint of a 21st century person with ideas of rationalism and progress.

And how else are we supposed to think about it? This is a fictional universe based on the imaginations of people who have lived and worked this hobby during the last 30 odd years or however long this hobby has been running (in all honesty, I have no idea exactly how long this hobby has been going). None of us know what it's like to live 38,000 years from now, let alone in the specific universe that's been created.

My point is that it's hard to consider it from anything other than the mindset of our current existence without getting extremely subjective, so telling us we "need" to think differently is not something you can really tell us to do.

Of course I can. To think that the viewpoint of the 21st century rationalist is the only one we can get our minds around is extremely parochial. We know to some extent how pre-modern ancient people thought from their writings, and how they believed from what is written of their religions including that of mystery cults. The viewpoint of the Adeptus Mechanicus is far closer to the pre-modern mindset and mystery than it is to modern research. It is one of faith and dogma and parallels how ancient people saw the world. If you find that difficult to believe, I suggest you go read up on some more ancient history. Even movies, such as The Name of the Rose in its antagonist's viewpoint on knowledge, portrays this pre-modern pre-scientific view. There is an entire RPG line, Ars Magica, that centers around portraying living in a medieval world with a medieval mindset.

40K despite being set in the future is a mishmash of ideas and tropes borrowing from the past. In particular, the Imperium and its constituent parts borrows heavily from medieval Europe or at least a stereotypical version of it as understood by the general public. Among them is the pre-modern pre-scientific viewpoint of knowledge.

As right or wrong as you may be (a point on which I'm not necessarily arguing because I'm no expert on this), expressing a particular view point and trying to convince me I'm wrong doesn't go hand in hand with your apparent requirement to tell me that I "Need" to think differently. That being said, I'm happy to be proven wrong and learn, so don't mistake my previous statements on this particular point as a refusal to accept what you've said.

Iracundus wrote:

And how exactly did you come to all of this? What source(s) led you to believe in this?

Because from what I know as well as the way most people I know talk about this, not many people seem to share your view point.

You must hang around some strange people then because what I wrote is pretty much the mainstream view of the Adeptus Mechanicus. I will not be citing every single thing written about the Adeptus Mechanicus since the 1980's just on your demand. I have already referred to the Dark Heresy RPG and the Logicians, which are detailed on p. 40 onwards of the supplement Disciples of the Dark Gods. There are numerous sources scattered throughout, but there is one good encapsulation given in Forge World's Imperial Armour Volume 1

I honestly resent the fact that you call my friends and acquaintances "Strange People" simply because our knowledge on a particular subject is different and/or lacking. I can't help but feel that such a statement was a bit malicious, but please forgive me if I'm wrong. Meanings and intentions can be clouded when it's just text on a forum.

And I don't expect you to list every source. A list of two or three sources which are readily available (e.g. websites, books that are still in print and affordable, etc). I ask for a couple of sources, not a complete set of sources dating back to the 80's complete with citations and quotes.

Iracundus wrote:
The factionalism within the Adeptus Mechanicus (and its predecessor the Mechanicum) is also well documented so I suggest you do more research yourself. They do not share STC data or necessarily cooperate, and may have their own private interests. The following are but some extracts since again I will not repeat several decades of quotes just because of one forum request.

Well given that you've shed light on the fact that my understanding of the Ad Mech is fundamentally inadequate and flawed, I will try to do more research on it. As for the quotes you've provided, I really do appreciate it. I honestly thought a quick list of books and websites to look up was what I was going to get (and all I could realistically expect).

On a side note (and I'm not trying to sound like a feth-head or unappreciative), but why do you think I expected you to churn up so much on the topic?

locarno24 wrote:
Actually that's a pretty good summary of how the Adeptus Mechanicus mindset was described in the Inquisitor board game, Priests Of Mars trilogy, Horus Heresy novels, and even the original Rogue Trader 40k rules.

The whole reason the 'explorator' exists is the Adeptus Mechanicus' fundamental beliefs that all knowledge has been discovered, and you just need to find it (e.g. leftover STC fragments) rather than trying to recreate it, which is tampering with the 'sacred order of things' or some such.

Fair enough. I get the feeling that the HH books are not an entirely accurate depiction of the mentality of anyone in the 41st Millennium since the 41st Millennium is set 10,000 years after HH as well as the fact the HH was a galactic civil war and M41 is not in anything like that. Though with my apparent lack of knowledge on the subject, I'm probably wrong.

**Exergy**

Just having a working machine and a lab doesn't mean you can take it apart, copy all the components, and build yourself a new one. Machines are complex, and everything needs to be at the right tolerance.

Imagine you are taking apart your car and trying to copy it in your garage. Immediately you are going to have problems fabricating copies for some of the parts. While replacing the custom door panels with something more primitive wont cause much fuss(it will get uglier and heavier) what are you going to do about the engine? Do you think you can cast a high temperature aluminum engine block in your home garage? Do you think you can get the bearings, cylinders, and rods to exact dimensions so they move, do not rub too much, and form a tight fit that does not let gas escape? Most cars these days have computer chips in them and those chips have carefully installed software. Are you going to copy those in your garage too? Will the software be compatible with all the changes you have made to the weight and stiffness of things?

To make something you need similar factories and supply chains to those that were used to produce it. Volkswagen would be able to make a nearly exact copy of a Ford if it really tried, but probably only a current model Ford. There will be some components that Volkswagen would not be able to fabricate exactly, instead they would have to engineer a new part to replace it and hope it doesnt mess anything up too badly but that is providing that all the parts they are replicating are state of the art technology. If there is anything cutting edge in there, it might not be possible.

Looking at WWII airplanes for instance. They can be repaired to a point, but they cannot be replaced. Sure we can build things that look like them, we can build things that fly like them, but we cannot replace them. Making high output, liquid cooled, gasoline piston engines without computer control is a complex art that is somewhat lost on us now. Getting all the parts to the right strength would require significant investment in tooling to build the parts. It would be far easier to replace things with newer technology. And that after only 70 years and when the current state of technology is better than it was then.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

IllumiNini wrote:

locarno24 wrote:Thats the big problem really - reverse engineering needs the underlying theoretical science and thats been lost too. It's not like Ford reverse engineering a BMW to try and make it work, it's more like an engineer in the 1890s trying to reverse engineer a nuclear reactor - he'd be dead of radiation poisoning and wouldn't even understand why.

Fair enough. Queue Marie Curie haha.

I get the feeling that taking baby steps combined with developing more theories and whatnot would help them (ever-so-slowly) with this, though. For example, The Imperium may not be able to reverse engineer or replicate the more efficient versions of a plasma core for space-faring vessels, but lets say they have a Plasma Gun. Then they find an STC that makes a more efficient version of the plasma gun. These changes are studied, theories are developed, and then this technology can be understood. This process can then continue up until the most advance forms of Plasma Generators/Cores/etc.

I might be wrong though. It just strikes me as weird that they lose all this technology and then suddenly become incapable of ever developing it ever again. It's so counter-intuitive and against all logic haha.

The problem is the war, the demands being put on the knowledge that does exist. To develop anything complex you need a lot of people and a lot of understanding.

Surely if you took an entire forge world, and all the planets that support it, and you set them aside and told them to make a better plasma gun they would probably eventually figure it out. It might take them a while to build a ton of different plasma guns, develop theories, prove those theories wrong, make new ones, implement those new ones, then start to prototype them, then test, then refine the design to make it buildable and mass produceable, then build a ton, refine again, then start testing over the long term for reliability. After several decades of development you would have a better plasmagun. How much better might be debatable, but it would be better in some ways, possibly worse in others. The problem is that taking all those resources out of war production would hurt the war effort. The imperium is being attacked on all fronts, lowering war production means the imprium loses more battles and perhaps a forge world somewhere else falls to Orkz, Chaos, Tyranids, or who knows. Was that really worth a slightly better plasma gun?

It isn't even just production, it is maintenance. The IoM is a Galactic empire without enough ships/communication/resources to keep itself going. People starve in the IoM because there are not enough farm machines to assist in food production. The food that there is rots while being transported to planets far away. More food then gets sent to the wrong place because of inefficient communication and distribution. Yet more is lost as ships break down or are lost to the warp. The IoM can certainly build more frieghter, but the people who know how to build them are too busy maintaining the ones that currently exist.

Think about cars again, there are 1 billion cars in the world today. They are maintained by 5-10 million auto mechanics. New cars are being built by another 5 million people. There is another labor pool building OEM parts that are used by both industries, perhaps another 5 million. There are about a million engineers who work to develop technologies for better cars. Say 20 million people all together. All these people are busy, they have to work fairly hard to keep all the cars running and building new ones to replace the ones that are beyond repair.
Now say something comes in and kills 90% of them, leaving just 2 million people to build all the new cars and repair all the old cars. At the same time people start driving more and demand for cars skyrockets. Car production is ramping up, but cars are also being destroyed/damaged(heh this is a car war). Those 2 million people who know about cars are being taxed to the limit and they start to slip. Some of the repairs are not good, some of the new cars break down quickly. They are working 18 hours a day, every day of the year. The solution you say is to train more people to repair cars, so you do. But the people who know about building the cars are too busy to really teach much to the new students. Some knowledge is lost in the transfer. Also that thing that killed 90% of the mechanics is still around, it keeps coming back and destroying factories and killing mechanics periodically. The process goes on for say 10 years and the mechanics are still overworked, the people they train are still not as good as the original mechanics, and they keep getting killed. Now you complain that the cars built today are not any more advanced than the cars built 10 years ago?

**Iron_Captain**

The AdMech is perfectly fine with modifying and creating new tech, as long as it is properly sanctified and done with the proper rituals and reverence to the Omnissiah and Machine Spirits. There is plenty of examples in the fluff of modifications of existing tech and new inventions.
The technological regression of humanity was caused by the societal collapse of the Age of Strife, and then made worse by the destruction of the Horus Heresy which also involved a civil war between factions of the Mechanicum loyal to Horus (the majority, including the FabGen of Mars) and those loyal to the Emperor.
Basically, all the technological knowledge that humanity once had was lost in the Age of Strife, and the little bits which remained were gathered by the AdMech and then destroyed again.

Imagine a world in which all car technicians are killed, most car factories and garages destroyed, the internet shutdown and all books about cars burned. In short, all technical knowledge of cars is almost completely lost. You would still be able to use the cars that were left behind, and eventually clever people might figure out how to maintain the cars and keep them running. But designing new cars? You'd never be able to do so again. You would have to develop the technology from scratch. And even if you do that, it would take many, many generations (it took humanity roughly 200,000 years to originally figure out how to build cars!) only be able to design and construct very primitive cars, just like the earliest cars people built. But why the Hell would you waste your time and resources like that that when you still got these perfectly fine, much more advanced 10000-year old car designs driving around? There is no incentive to develop new technology, the old technology is just better. Oh yeah, and now also imagine you are constantly attacked from all sides by enemies. You are not going to take apart those last working cars and the last working car factories for research when you desperately need them to constantly produce more cars for your survival. You will just cling to these last remaining working relics of the past and hope it is enough to survive.

This is the situation of the AdMech. They are developing new technology very slowly, but developing new things that are better than the old relics of the past is going to take a very, very long time given the fact that they have to start from scratch and can't afford it to take apart working ancient technology.

**welshhoppo**

Don't forget, no one really knows exactly how much information Mars actually has. They could have anti gravity technology and are simply keeping it for themselves. The AdMech are cunning and you would be a fool to underestimate exactly how much they know and how much they have the ability to create new technologies. Knowledge is power after all.

**Psienesis**

Medical advances are overseen by the AdMech... they aren't just mechanics, fabricators and industrial designers, they are the Imperium's base of hard sciences as well.

Specifically to medicine, that falls under the Magi Biologis of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

As to the rise to the Golden Age, which was ended by the Men of Iron? Simple. Mankind was the virtual master of the galaxy at the time, with technology to rival the ancient Eldar Empire. They were not at war on every front, and had thousands of years of relative peace and stability to focus on things that were not, specifically, weapons of warfare.

Of course, they had the blueprints for all the things that they were creating, up to and including the Men of Iron. They were housed in the STC devices, which is why the AdMech continues its quest to find an intact, uncorrupted example. Possessing such a thing would immediately catapult Mankind to the zenith of the Golden Age, putting them on-par with Eldar/Necron technological levels, and leaving everything else behind in the dust.

**locarno24**

The AdMech is perfectly fine with modifying and creating new tech, as long as it is properly sanctified and done with the proper rituals and reverence to the Omnissiah and Machine Spirits. There is plenty of examples in the fluff of modifications of existing tech and new inventions.

Note that that is part of the (actually sensible) reason for the Adeptus Mechanicus insistence on STC provenance of all technology. The Dark Age STC designs were insanely inter-compatibly. Essentially, every pattern of STC las-weapon can accept every pattern of STC power cell. A mars-pattern laspistol powercell won't get you many shots out of a sarum-II pattern multilaser (in fact it'll struggle to power one) but it'll fit, and it'll work. Briefly.

Equally, all the vehicle heavy weapon mountings and power feeds are cross-compatible. This is why spur-of-the-moment innovations like the Predator Annihalator work.

**Unit1126PLL**

The Adeptus Mechanicus does innovate! But only in times of dire need and only within the purview of the Centurio Ordinatus. Ordinatus engines are not STC designs but wholly new technology, possibly incorporating STC elements depending on what the Archmagos Ordinator overseeing their construction is familiar with.

Which is why the Ordinatus engines are more special and rare even than Titans - borderline heretical war engines with immeasurably powerful Machine Spirits, products of barely-sanctioned innovation to be revered as icons of the Machine God when their term of service (the one dire battle they were made for) is up.

The fact that there is a whole cult dedicated to the care, maintenance, deployment, use, and appeasement of these war engines is telling.

**=Angel=**

locarno24 wrote:
The AdMech is perfectly fine with modifying and creating new tech, as long as it is properly sanctified and done with the proper rituals and reverence to the Omnissiah and Machine Spirits. There is plenty of examples in the fluff of modifications of existing tech and new inventions.

Note that that is part of the (actually sensible) reason for the Adeptus Mechanicus insistence on STC provenance of all technology. The Dark Age STC designs were insanely inter-compatibly. Essentially, every pattern of STC las-weapon can accept every pattern of STC power cell. A mars-pattern laspistol powercell won't get you many shots out of a sarum-II pattern multilaser (in fact it'll struggle to power one) but it'll fit, and it'll work. Briefly.

Equally, all the vehicle heavy weapon mountings and power feeds are cross-compatible. This is why spur-of-the-moment innovations like the Predator Annihalator work.

Not exactly.
The Ghosts were left undersupplied when an adminstratum error gave them the wrong power cells for their lasguns. They didn't even fit in the receiver. An enginseer may have been able to use extension cords to connect the two but that was never brought up, possibly due to the lack of both techpriests and extensions cords.

I doubt you'd fit a laspistol cell into a multilaser without jury rigging. If such jury rigging exists it would be heavily ritualised.