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The AdMech is perfectly fine with modifying and creating new tech, as long as it is properly sanctified and done with the proper rituals and reverence to the Omnissiah and Machine Spirits. There is plenty of examples in the fluff of modifications of existing tech and new inventions.
Note that that is part of the (actually sensible) reason for the Adeptus Mechanicus insistence on STC provenance of all technology. The Dark Age STC designs were insanely inter-compatibly. Essentially, every pattern of STC las-weapon can accept every pattern of STC power cell. A mars-pattern laspistol powercell won't get you many shots out of a sarum-II pattern multilaser (in fact it'll struggle to power one) but it'll fit, and it'll work. Briefly.
Equally, all the vehicle heavy weapon mountings and power feeds are cross-compatible. This is why spur-of-the-moment innovations like the Predator Annihalator work.
Not exactly.
The Ghosts were left undersupplied when an adminstratum error gave them the wrong power cells for their lasguns. They didn't even fit in the receiver. An enginseer may have been able to use extension cords to connect the two but that was never brought up, possibly due to the lack of both techpriests and extensions cords.
I doubt you'd fit a laspistol cell into a multilaser without jury rigging. If such jury rigging exists it would be heavily ritualised.
I know Dan Abnett used the "wrong size socket" thing in one of his novels but from memory all the traditional older fluff was that las cells are a universal standard.
Some of the thoughts in this thread remind me of the Iain Banks novel Feersum Endjinn, in which a feudal society lives among the remains of a much more advanced civilisation - almost literally rats in the walls of an enormous gothic "castle" (shades of Gormenghast too). There's a Noosphere-like virtual reality called The Crypt, which is merely the safest corner of a vast, chaotic dataspace inhabited by monstrous AI entities.
To explain it further would be to ruin the book's discoveries, not least the nature of the "Fearsome Engine" of the title, but it's well worth a read. Not his best, and the lead character's phonetically spelled diary becomes... annoying... but even a minor Banks book is dripping with atmosphere and ideas.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/26 12:43:42
As Iron Captain already explained with his car example modern technology (even ours) is so complex and specialized to create that losing a single piece of the chain might be enough to stall everything. I can put together a desktop PC from stock parts, install the programs and use it to write on this forum. But if I had to produce all the parts and write the programs I'd be stumped immediately. It's simply not doable by one man, or a hundred, or a thousand. I'd need to get minerals, process them, process them again in high-tech facilities, assemble components in another high-tech facility and then have a spare PC to write the programs on in programming languages I don't know.
The STCs explain everything - what materials to gather, how to refine them, how to process and how to assemble. If another stage is needed (like a refining plant) the STC machine would also explain how to build that. Losing prints from the machine as 40K humanity has means some things just are impossible to build, and others at least inefficient or costly as the AdMech has to find alternate means of their own by trial and error. They might well know how to put together a mega-super-anti-grav-deathtank, but no one knows how to produce the drive core anymore.
Not sur ehow many are big sci fi readers in general. GW seems to have borrowed a lot on this subject from Isacc Asimov and the foundation series. The way technology works has been ingrain through an semi-religious practice. A tech priest is unlikely to know how something works, but has a ritual that would troubleshoot and fix a problem. This makes advancing science a virtually impossible task. To put it in an example lets say using one from another great literary work (zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) If I think of the Carbirator as the mouth of the bike and have cleaning rituals for it and other cerimonies to replace seals but do not understand why this work is necessary and instead think it it to keep the mechanical being alive then I am not going to ever come up with the idea of adding fuel injection in place of the carberator.
It still strikes me as extremely odd that the Imperium as a whole is derping out with technology and somehow regressing quite a bit over the course of 30K to 40K. How does the Imperium no manage to reverse-engineer a whole bunch of technologies like pre-30K Plasma Generators and Weaponry? And how does the reclamation of worlds and/or STC machines seem to be the main way in which the Imperium makes big leaps in the advancement of technology?
Also according to this page, there's a Ordo of the Inquisition that is responsible for redacting records from the Imperium. Do people think this is at all cannon? Or one of those things that got added in by fans to this particular Wiki? Because if this Ordo is cannon, then they would go a long way in explaining the technological regression (at least in part).
What are your thoughts on this?
Cheers Guys
Knowing how to use technology and knowing how that technology works are two different things.
We all have smart phones how many people on this board actually KNOW how a smartphone works ?
And even knowing a little of the basic theory becomes kind of useless when the technology becomes too far removed; the moment things like integrated circuits within pre-formed chips, or software, are involved, your understanding of high school electrical theory won't help like it will with a purely electromechancial car engine.
Same thing at a higher scale. Even if you know that this 'device' is a zeptotechnological computer, as far as anything you can do says, it's a blob. It's black. It connects to the targeting system. It does stuff. You have nothing capable of seeing the components, much less interacting with them.
It reminds me of a research team from an Xeelee sequence short story trying to explain things to their manager.
"We don't know what the hull is, but it's impressive. Nothing we do cuts it, marks it, even affects it.."
"Hasn't analysis given any hints as to the composition?"
"I just told you: 'Nothing we do cuts it, marks it, even affects it' - how the bloody hell are we supposed to get any samples to a lab to analyse?"
If anybody really wants to have some fun on the subject look up STC and realize the fun of adding them into narrative play. The adeptus Mechanicus will literally do anything to get one... make a dark angels player choose between that objective a possibly fully intact STC or chasing Cypher. etc.
There are a few theories on the chapter specific vehicles used by some chapters that they have found something on a STC and have either not shared it or the Mechanicus chose to only give the tech as a reward to the chapter that recovered it.
On a separate note the Salamanders know their equipment inside and out so I bet some of them might know their equipment better than (some of) the mechanicus as they have the practical knowledge rather than the ritualized knowledge. Surely on forgewords they keep the secrets of the components they are making limited so that they have a lot to offer to the imperium and thus are greatly protected.
We already have an early version of the Adeptus Mechanicus creed....how many of us have uttered the chant "turn it off and turn it back on again"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 08:27:17
"Bloody typical, they've gone back to metric without telling us."
"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh haven't you?"
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
I know Dan Abnett used the "wrong size socket" thing in one of his novels but from memory all the traditional older fluff was that las cells are a universal standard.
I believe that those were not STC lasguns.
Given the variety and vagaries of the lasgun in the 40k universe, I'm not actually sure the AdMech has an STC for the lasgun. I think they may have found a few autofactories set up during or after the fall, and done their best to recreate them. That's actually the case with the majority of Imperial technology - they don't, currently, have an STC for it. What they have is the second generation attempt to re-create what was lost when the STCs were lost.
Remember that the Mechanicum came into being as a result of the restoration of the Imperium's tech-base post Iron Men Uprising. The Adeptus Mechanicus aren't the second attempt to restore humanity to the technological singularity. They are't even the third attempt to restore humanity to a halfway-decent tech level. They're something like the fifth... and it was only the original humans that had STC technology. The Iron Men are the ones who destroyed the STCs.
With each iteration - Guild Mechanicus, Mechanicum, Adeptus Mechanicus - they get more dogmatic and reliant on STC data. The first time round, they got enough non-STC data together to write the hymnals to build every piece of technology available in 30k, including Astartes Combat Knives.
The STC for the ceramic compound used in Astartes Combat Knives wasn't found until a few years before the Sabbat Crusades.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 08:36:23
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
There is actually very simple rationale why Imperium and AdMech discourage innovation and operate technology via religious practices: stability.
Technolocical progress is always threat to stability of a society and its power structures. People build machines to make clothes, that makes all weavers angry. Person who invents them becomes amazingly rich, richer than the old nobility and upstages them. Or someone invents a new efficient way to kill armoured knights? That will upstage all the hierarchies!
In 40k, mankind has already experienced the worst what uncontrolled technological progress can produce. Furthermore, if technology was not monopolized and standardized Imperium-wide, someone in some distant system might develope technology which will upstage Mars, Terra etc, leading to instability, possibly civil war and so on.
Ancient Romans were very aware that they could improve the machinery and technology available to them. But for the most part they didn't want to. They were the most powerful empire around as they were, if they needed something done they had slaves, if they built machines to replace slaves work, that would leave thousands or millions unemployed slaves all around - recipe for disaster! So it was better just not to tamper with natural order of things.
Given the variety and vagaries of the lasgun in the 40k universe, I'm not actually sure the AdMech has an STC for the lasgun. I think they may have found a few autofactories set up during or after the fall, and done their best to recreate them. That's actually the case with the majority of Imperial technology - they don't, currently, have an STC for it. What they have is the second generation attempt to re-create what was lost when the STCs were lost.
Lasguns may not be STC at all. STC is just the excuse why everything looks the same throughout the galaxy.
It doesn't take into account pre-existing tech or stuff developed independently.
Laser tech is relatively well understood in the Imperium. Most worlds can produce lasguns and they can be fiddled with by common soldiery.
The staggering number of patterns for the common lasgun, all of which accomplish basically the same results, strongly suggests that there is no STC for a lasgun. Much like firearms in our own world, the principles of their design are so well-understood that they can be produced almost anywhere, including out of the garages of DIY under-Hivers.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
It might also be that there just is a huge lot of different lasgun STCs. Just like we have thousands of different rifle designs who all basically do the same things.
That would violate the idea of an STC..."Standard Template Construction". The idea behind them is a one-size-fits-all approach to each class of an item. An STC lasrifle would be universal, the Platonic ideal of a lasrifle.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: That would violate the idea of an STC..."Standard Template Construction". The idea behind them is a one-size-fits-all approach to each class of an item. An STC lasrifle would be universal, the Platonic ideal of a lasrifle.
yes and no, I would be willing to be thet cannon wise the internals of all lasguns are essentially the same, they might have different housings and lengths/sizes but overall the battery back interface, the focuser etc. are all going to be the same (which also explains why they have barrels when a laser gun should not need one unless it were part of the focusing mechanism but would explain why a las pistol if the same power but shorter range (dissipates faster). put into practical modern term look at an ar-15 you can get them in different configuration, many different calibers, barrel lengths, rails, polymer and metal ones, but at the core the mechanism is identical. buffer spring, buffer, bolt carrier group, gas impingement system, and trigger assemblies should all be interchangeable within spec (though technically there is mil spec and commercial spec but even then they are sometimes interchangeable)
The problem with that is that different lasgun patterns operate differently.
Some of them can fire on full auto, others are semi. Some actually require reloading between every shot.
Some have different, digital power settings (full or half) (Tanith nal-stock lasguns). Some have analogue power settings (turn dial to set power) (necromunda pattern). Some have only one power setting (Ryza pattern).
Some need the focussing lenses changing once in a blue moon. Some need the focussing lenses changing every 1000 shots (Triplex-pattern assault laser)
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Furyou Miko wrote: The problem with that is that different lasgun patterns operate differently.
Some of them can fire on full auto, others are semi. Some actually require reloading between every shot.
Some have different, digital power settings (full or half) (Tanith nal-stock lasguns). Some have analogue power settings (turn dial to set power) (necromunda pattern). Some have only one power setting (Ryza pattern).
Some need the focussing lenses changing once in a blue moon. Some need the focussing lenses changing every 1000 shots (Triplex-pattern assault laser)
I can see that, but mostly what would make the lasgun the lasgun? you have a power pack, a diode to create the intense light, and a lens array to focus it into the beam. the STC argument would only need those components to be the same. in the AR15 example an added part the autoseer makes it fire in 3 round bursts or full auto. in a lasgun this could be worked in the form of the trigger mechanism or something (again in theory) telling the diode to fire in quick succession or bursts, difference being that perhaps some are made better (more precision or purer components) or have better cooling components added to handle it. For a power dial it would just be a simple regulator controlling how much of a charge to send to said diode.
Furyou Miko wrote: The problem with that is that different lasgun patterns operate differently.
Some of them can fire on full auto, others are semi. Some actually require reloading between every shot.
Some have different, digital power settings (full or half) (Tanith nal-stock lasguns). Some have analogue power settings (turn dial to set power) (necromunda pattern). Some have only one power setting (Ryza pattern).
Some need the focussing lenses changing once in a blue moon. Some need the focussing lenses changing every 1000 shots (Triplex-pattern assault laser)
I can see that, but mostly what would make the lasgun the lasgun? you have a power pack, a diode to create the intense light, and a lens array to focus it into the beam. the STC argument would only need those components to be the same. in the AR15 example an added part the autoseer makes it fire in 3 round bursts or full auto. in a lasgun this could be worked in the form of the trigger mechanism or something (again in theory) telling the diode to fire in quick succession or bursts, difference being that perhaps some are made better (more precision or purer components) or have better cooling components added to handle it. For a power dial it would just be a simple regulator controlling how much of a charge to send to said diode.
Its more than that. Much of the lasguns body is taken up with the capacitors that allow it to build a lethal charge. Simpler models cannot go full auto because the capacitors won't recharge fast enough. It could be argued that while (relatively standardised) powercell technology allows the lasgun to exist, those capacitors are the lasgun. And the capacitors are not standardised throughout the galaxy, Triplex Phall makes high quality, notably high rate of fire lasguns- while the industrially produced models from Necromunda Hive Primus that find their way down into the Underhive are less impressive but no less reliable.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/29 20:29:07
Ankhalagon wrote: Yeah. Don`t patch a coffee-thingy in a Leman Russ. The Techpriest will go crazy. Seriously.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Ankhalagon wrote: Yeah. Don`t patch a coffee-thingy in a Leman Russ. The Techpriest will go crazy. Seriously.
An engineer knows not to tamper with high tech equipment unless it has been thoroughly studied and tested.
Adding mass can change the resonant frequency of vibration, shaking a previously stable vehicle apart in a few minutes.
Welding, bolting of a-fixing new pieces weakens the old pieces, which can break in nasty ways.
Running anything that requires power can overload the power grid.
If it is supposed to be stealth, adding anything to the outside will remove it's stealth
If it is supposed to fly, adding anything to the outside will prevent it from flying
Think about a jet fighter aircraft, say the F-35: No one would be allowed to modify it in any way the design team did not already think of without approval.
Now imagine the technology is thousands of years more advanced and there are dimensions of it we cannot even comprehend, like a super computer on board that is revered as a 'spirit'
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Psienesis wrote: That would violate the idea of an STC..."Standard Template Construction". The idea behind them is a one-size-fits-all approach to each class of an item. An STC lasrifle would be universal, the Platonic ideal of a lasrifle.
I am not sure how there being variety invalidates the whole STC idea. STC does not mean there is always a one size fits all for every eventuality.
For example the STC for the Leman Russ, it allows for the thing to be powered by everything from nuclear to coal! Now you cant tell me they are not pretty damn different in what their engines are set up like and yet they are still made from the STC its jsut that the STC ALLOWs for variation to suit the conditions you are in or the technology you have to hand.
Its kind of like an airfix kit having insert part B here but if no part B available use parts P thru Z in this arrangment.
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