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 Kilkrazy wrote:
I found it a bit worrying that as experienced a designer as Jervis should design a scenario that didn't work.

Does seem a little pat, huh?

But brilliant strategy: (1) round up guys that have been excited about your product and have been well-received by other players, (2) make them feel really special and appreciated, (3) they go back home and use their existing platform to sing your praises even louder ... you get the credibility without having to engage in a real playtest process.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I found it a bit worrying that as experienced a designer as Jervis should design a scenario that didn't work.

Does seem a little pat, huh?

But brilliant strategy: (1) round up guys that have been excited about your product and have been well-received by other players, (2) make them feel really special and appreciated, (3) they go back home and use their existing platform to sing your praises even louder ... you get the credibility without having to engage in a real playtest process.

Please don't feed ammo to the cynic side of me

I need to listen to that podcast (can't since you know, work and all) but I'll have to say that personally the info so far has not kept my hopes up. Quite on the contrary.

Will add this from news thread:

 HeelanHammer wrote:

The main thing that struck me was that it doesn't seem like these guys will actually be involved in continued development of the game and points system. They basically got to come in for a one-day play session to meet the designers and give feedback on what GW had at the time and their thoughts about the whole process, but they certainly won't be using SCGT comp or any existing points system, and it won't be further developed by the community but by GW

I can't give details (yet), but - The visit was only one day, but there has been a lot of back and forth with email/calls etc over a period of time, GW have really been open/co-operative about this. Bear in mind various guys that are involved with the books their end are also solid tournament players, so its not guys that don't play writing this stuff to start with. This really is a 'new world' (or 'Age' maybe....).

D

Listening to the podcast again. The 4 or 5 different campaign systems sounds amazing - are we gonna have a mini Mordhiem crammed in there? Path of Glory looked great (don't have a chaos army so I can't play!) so anything of a similar ilk sounds exciting!

I heard it to mean Path of Glory ruleset for you to use. Not an army specific one.

Is Path of Glory not just one of the selection? With others catering to giant battles and others catering to small battles?

Glad to hear they're doing something, though personally I liked the simpler comp rules that are out there (e.g- 1 point for 5 elite models, or 10 less elite and so-on) with all the various classifications, rather than going into the thousands range; most options on new units tend to be some kind of trade-off rather than something that should need a cost, with things like command models in a big unit being stuff you'd expect to just be bundled or added past a certain size maybe.

Also strange that it's in the book; I'm hoping maybe the basics will be in the book, along with lists for what's available now, but that maybe we'll get online updates or even points values added onto war-scrolls in future and updated if necessary to keep competitive.


Not that I'm too hung up on points; with my opponents it's usually fine to just do the "bring what you like and we'll discuss it" method combined with the "no you can't take a Bloodthirster to my every unit *flips table*" house rule, which I haven't yet had to employ

Well that leads to the question of whether or not the points will be on a per-unit basis or allocated in the Book based on Keywords.

Like anything with a "Monster" keyword is X points, if it also has a "Hero" keyword add X points and so on.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
I'll have to say that personally the info so far has not kept my hopes up. Quite on the contrary.

I wasn't hoping for anything in particular - but an annual for-purchase points catalog with fan-sourced marketing rather than playtesting is not good for anyone.

Well, you can tell yourself that, but a lot of people are excited about this, so clearly they think it's good.

People get excited about new stuff because it's new. Let's see how people feel once this has been out for a while.

The raddled old cynic in me wonders why those cool solid tournament players at GW Design Studio had to wait so long before GW Design Studio decided to take some notice of them.

Especially with AoS having been in development for two years and everything.

A good point - but there may be a less than sinister reason: I have been thinking about this because of how GW reached out to SBG players a few weeks ago. It's possible that the thinking at GW massively underestimated the quality of the content that players can organize independently. When you see some of these YT channels and podcasts, they are really impressive - and they drive interest. I think GW is "waking up" a bit to this potential. This General's Hanbook seems very regressive, however. So one step forward, two steps back in a sense.

I really hope the points system is good. I had some fears after first listening to the podcast - but Dan from SCGT mentioning that they have had emails going back and forth makes me feel better. I was really hoping for a fluid and living system that could be constantly tweaked. Book format obviously ties the points to print meaning they can't be updated till the book is redone. I hope the points aren't tied to future battletomes and grand alliance books in this case.

Then again, I never had massive complaints with the WHFB points. This is only less than ideal.

 Manchu wrote:
A good point - but there may be a less than sinister reason: I have been thinking about this because of how GW reached out to SBG players a few weeks ago. It's possible that the thinking at GW massively underestimated the quality of the content that players can organize independently. When you see some of these YT channels and podcasts, they are really impressive - and they drive interest. I think GW is "waking up" a bit to this potential. This General's Hanbook seems very regressive, however. So one step forward, two steps back in a sense.

That would fit into the centralisation groupthink under Kirby. The impetus of that strategy having failed and Rountree coming in could explain the change of heart.

I used Beasts of War as an example of a good marketing video idea for my boss at Sony a few years ago. (The idea was never taken up, though.)

GW store Twitter account wrote:
Q: will there be restrictions on keywords? Eg only 2 units with "hero" allowed etc
A:not keywords as such, split into leaders, battle line units, behemoths and warmachines (may not be correct names or finalised)...then the way to build your army says you can have min/max of each depending on size.

Q: will we be seeing a new rule set/update to the existing core rulebook? I was about to buy the hardback copy but am holding off
A: the core rules stay the same. All the books are worth getting as they are full of background. Go well with the novels too!

I don't like the idea of force restrictions. Grand Alliance restrictions I can take as a mix of control and fluff. But having an org chart/fluff goes against what I like about AoS.

I want to see if these restrictions are like 40k or if it's a % of your force can be monsters, for example.

Because for those that do already play AoS units can vary wildly. Add on points and a restricted org chart and that's a lot of units back on the shelf.

I do recall, even before AoS' release, rumours of an 'Age of Steel' book that would develop on ways to play post-release ('summer time'). That could have been dog poo rumour mongering that became true but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the plan all along.


Edit: Oh, and it just occurred to me that these will no doubt include battalions too. Imagine trying to "balance" them. But then people would rather an accept an official poor points system than use a community or DIY approach.

 Manchu wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
I'll have to say that personally the info so far has not kept my hopes up. Quite on the contrary.

I wasn't hoping for anything in particular - but an annual for-purchase points catalog with fan-sourced marketing rather than playtesting is not good for anyone.

I was actually hoping for something very simple and in line with what we've seen with AoS so far - I was hoping they would just replace the old war scrolls with newer ones that actually had points value in them.
Period. End of. No advised scenarios to play matched play, no BRB proxy that you must purchase annually - because that's what this new book will be.

It would be simple and perfectly in line with AoS to just keep things free and online, and wouldn't really push any players to play any scenario or advise any specific value for each tier of play. I can't even fathom the bother that will be moving 2000pts of skaven/goblins in AoS, for example.

This is what happens when optimist me takes the reins from bitter, cynic me - I start expecting GW to use common sense. Bad Lith. BAD!

I expect we'll see points in the app somewhere. They won't be on the warscroll. But somewhere, digitally, out there, they'll be added.

Now, regularly reviewed and digitally updated? I doubt that.

Points don't work without force restrictions. That's part of why the balance in 40K has broken down so much in recent years.

You don't have to play with points, though. That's what "Open" AoS is about. Just playing with whatever you like.

All this news about AoS is pretty exciting. I've had 0 interested up to this point, but with news of gw actually getting some feedback from the community, and the different ways to play, I may just give it a go! Now if I wanted to start with dark elves, would I need the order book?

 Cptskillet wrote:
All this news about AoS is pretty exciting. I've had 0 interested up to this point, but with news of gw actually getting some feedback from the community, and the different ways to play, I may just give it a go! Now if I wanted to start with dark elves, would I need the order book?

Nope, if you have a apple or andriod device all warscrolls are available on the Age of Sigmar app, failing that they're on the website if you go to the page of the unit you want and click the rules tab. You'll miss out on some warscroll batallions (formations if you're coming from 40k) but these can be purchased individually on the app for a couple of pounds if you feel you need them.

There's also the compendium for the "legacy" dark elves here but keep in mind some of these scrolls have been updated and will be a little different on the app or their own page. https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-dark-elves-en.pdf

 Manchu wrote:
People get excited about new stuff because it's new. Let's see how people feel once this has been out for a while.

Kind of like how AoS did alright at the beginning until people actually played a few times and realized how awful it was without a balancing mechanic? Considering this is the first time in 30 years I can recall GW backpedaling this quickly and dramatically, they must have had some all time awful sales numbers, a room full of hate mail piling up or a combination of the 2.

 Toofast wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
People get excited about new stuff because it's new. Let's see how people feel once this has been out for a while.

Kind of like how AoS did alright at the beginning until people actually played a few times and realized how awful it was without a balancing mechanic? Considering this is the first time in 30 years I can recall GW backpedaling this quickly and dramatically, they must have had some all time awful sales numbers, a room full of hate mail piling up or a combination of the 2.

Or this was always in the pipeline. Not as ridiculous a suggestion as many would like to believe.

Dai wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
People get excited about new stuff because it's new. Let's see how people feel once this has been out for a while.

Kind of like how AoS did alright at the beginning until people actually played a few times and realized how awful it was without a balancing mechanic? Considering this is the first time in 30 years I can recall GW backpedaling this quickly and dramatically, they must have had some all time awful sales numbers, a room full of hate mail piling up or a combination of the 2.

Or this was always in the pipeline. Not as ridiculous a suggestion as many would like to believe.

Sadly we may never know the truth to this. GW and AoS/GW supporters may say it was always in the pipeline, while GW/AoS critics will consistently point the other way.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Dai wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
People get excited about new stuff because it's new. Let's see how people feel once this has been out for a while.

Kind of like how AoS did alright at the beginning until people actually played a few times and realized how awful it was without a balancing mechanic? Considering this is the first time in 30 years I can recall GW backpedaling this quickly and dramatically, they must have had some all time awful sales numbers, a room full of hate mail piling up or a combination of the 2.

Or this was always in the pipeline. Not as ridiculous a suggestion as many would like to believe.

Sadly we may never know the truth to this. GW and AoS/GW supporters may say it was always in the pipeline, while GW/AoS critics will consistently point the other way.

Yeah I'm not saying that it is the case, just that's it's a legitimate option.

 Toofast wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
People get excited about new stuff because it's new. Let's see how people feel once this has been out for a while.

Kind of like how AoS did alright at the beginning until people actually played a few times and realized how awful it was without a balancing mechanic? Considering this is the first time in 30 years I can recall GW backpedaling this quickly and dramatically, they must have had some all time awful sales numbers, a room full of hate mail piling up or a combination of the 2.

Putting it bluntly, AoS doing alright saleswise at the beginning had nothing to do with "people actually playing a few times". It had everything to do with the fact that it saw two new armies come out with an entire range to support them.

Once Stormcast and Bloodbound wrapped up their initial release wave, there was nothing for people to really buy beyond round bases(if they wanted) or a few odds and ends to round out their collections of stuff.

And quite frankly, the "room full of hate mail piling up" was probably from the "Oldhammer was better!" crowd who didn't buy crap before, didn't play in anything but tournaments, and refused to even try AoS once.

For myself, I'm quite pleased to have three ways to play AoS. It means bringing more players to the game and exploring others ways to play if the players feel like it.

What gives more options to play is always welcome.

I understand people may fear that some options may "threaten" their favourite playstyle, but I don't think it will be the case - after all, if you played until now with fellow players, I don't see what will be stopping you once a book just adding more options to play will be out. This is something new and we don't know what will be happening after this: expecting bad things is a natural reaction, but that doesn't mean it will happen.

I'd rather look at the positive part and wait to see what will come out of this. I believe this can bring a lot of goods things for AoS and its players.

It could have been in the pipeline, logic and reason would suggest otherwise. If they had wanted the game to be played with points, they would've released the initial game with points. You don't fundamentally change something about your game and use that change as the main selling point when you intend to reverse that change in less than a year. It would be the equivalent of GM saying they're only producing convertible corvettes for 2018 model year but then 6 months in sales are awful so they rush out a coupe version designed by the corvette club of America. Of course a few die hard corvette guys will say the coupe was their real plan all along. Everyone else is able to put 2 and 2 together and come up with 4.

TLDR if you believe GW released AoS without points but intended to add them 6-12 months down the road, I have a bridge to sell you...

Dai wrote:

 Cptskillet wrote:
All this news about AoS is pretty exciting. I've had 0 interested up to this point, but with news of gw actually getting some feedback from the community, and the different ways to play, I may just give it a go! Now if I wanted to start with dark elves, would I need the order book?

Nope, if you have a apple or andriod device all warscrolls are available on the Age of Sigmar app, failing that they're on the website if you go to the page of the unit you want and click the rules tab. You'll miss out on some warscroll batallions (formations if you're coming from 40k) but these can be purchased individually on the app for a couple of pounds if you feel you need them.

There's also the compendium for the "legacy" dark elves here but keep in mind some of these scrolls have been updated and will be a little different on the app or their own page. https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-dark-elves-en.pdf

Thanks for this. I have 0 fantasy models, but I did read the malus darkblade books and loved them. I know fluff wise he's dead, and at looking at the legacy rules, it's nice to see he's still there. However would I be able to use these along with the order serpentis and have it go smoothly?