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Davor wrote: Sigmar is a coward and left all humanity to die. He couldn't win, so he tuck tailed and went home. Only after Chaos was spread thin did Sigmar come back and try to claim his "vengeance".
He is nothing but a Slave Master who takes people against their will only to serve his own will. He must be expunged and is a blight to humanity.
Well that is the way I see it, and I am sticking to my story.
This is a very interesting perspective on the situation. It begs the question, if you were in a submarine, would you close a bulkhead to stop a breach in the hull from drowning the entire ship, even if it meant killing off 90% of the ships population? This is assuming that it was a now or never. It seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, much like Sigmar's.
As for him hiding, you wouldn't shove your hand into a band-saw to stop it. It most likely wouldn't work, and you'd be out a hand. You would most likely use something sturdy enough to to stop it that would guarantee your objective, while also minimising risk. This is what Sigmar did. If he would have stayed to stop Chaos, yes, he would have won a few battles, but in the grand scheme of things he would fail no matter what he did, killing more of his own people because of a bad decision. Instead, he withdrew and waited till he had something sturdy to complete his objective.
Yes but many do view him as a coward that left them to die of course its all about perspectives. I assume many in the realm of death saw it that way when nagash stood his ground and fought hence why so many humans in the realm of death still worship nagash and not sigmar.
Having examined the fluff in that book (I agree that its a great novel btw) as well as Battletome: Seraphon, I believe the bit about them being memories of the Slann is both true and misleading on its own. A given Seraphon (or group of them) is indeed conjured into existence by a Slann drawing on his memories, however, when Bob the Skink dies fighting alongside some Stormcast the Slann remembers Bob the Skink doing that, so the reconjured Bob does as well. Further, once a Seraphon is conjured he doesn't un-conjure until his death. Slann summoning on the battlefield isn't them pulling from their memory; it's them pulling already-existing seraphon from Azyr. If those Seraphon survive the battle then they go back to Azyr, only if they die does the Slann need to reconstruct them from memory again (and even then they still remember the battle they died in, etc).
Now the above does have a bit of my own extrapolation since it isn't explicitly stated anywhere, but the simple 'conjured-from-memory-every-time' explanation doesn't line up with the fluff that has been given. (Not that I blame people for believing that; it isn't exactly clear-cut or easy to figure out!)
Wargington wrote: What's going on with the giants, are they smart again? I thought I saw a formation somewhere requiring 5 of them with one being a king.
I would a few of them are, but I haven't read Godbeasts yet.
Wargington wrote: What's going on with the giants, are they smart again? I thought I saw a formation somewhere requiring 5 of them with one being a king.
Having read Godbeasts; they are still dumb, the formation's king may be smart by giant standards, but that puts him at the level of the overage orruk.
Davor wrote: Sigmar is a coward and left all humanity to die. He couldn't win, so he tuck tailed and went home. Only after Chaos was spread thin did Sigmar come back and try to claim his "vengeance".
He is nothing but a Slave Master who takes people against their will only to serve his own will. He must be expunged and is a blight to humanity.
Well that is the way I see it, and I am sticking to my story.
This is a very interesting perspective on the situation. It begs the question, if you were in a submarine, would you close a bulkhead to stop a breach in the hull from drowning the entire ship, even if it meant killing off 90% of the ships population? This is assuming that it was a now or never. It seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, much like Sigmar's.
As for him hiding, you wouldn't shove your hand into a band-saw to stop it. It most likely wouldn't work, and you'd be out a hand. You would most likely use something sturdy enough to to stop it that would guarantee your objective, while also minimising risk. This is what Sigmar did. If he would have stayed to stop Chaos, yes, he would have won a few battles, but in the grand scheme of things he would fail no matter what he did, killing more of his own people because of a bad decision. Instead, he withdrew and waited till he had something sturdy to complete his objective.
Yes but many do view him as a coward that left them to die of course its all about perspectives. I assume many in the realm of death saw it that way when nagash stood his ground and fought hence why so many humans in the realm of death still worship nagash and not sigmar.
To add to the above - yeah, cause ALL the Elves, Dwarves and Humans, that were left behind ALL perished. No wait, they didn't.
But besides, Sigmar would never let someone like Grungni return to the Mortal Realms on his own? Would he?
Conversely, if things were so desperate, how did Sigmar find all the time and material to build an entire fortress and space station out of gold (while a whole bunch of mortals did perish)?
And, why does he send someone else to find his hammer?
This isn't bad plot setting, Sigmar is just a coward....
KiloFiX wrote: Conversely, if things were so desperate, how did Sigmar find all the time and material to build an entire fortress and space station out of gold (while a whole bunch of mortals did perish)?
And, why does he send someone else to find his hammer?
The moral-relativity topic aside, I can answer these. Sigmar built his big space station in Azyr, the realm that he retreated to and sealed off. It was the other seven realms that he left to the whims of Chaos. As for the second question, he sent Stormcasts to where he thought the hammer was, but did not tell said Stormcasts why they were going there. He did this because Azyr is magically shrouded to prevent outsiders (Tzeentch in this case) spying in, but the other realms are not. Thus, if the Stormcasts knew they were looking for the hammer then their enemies would have known they were looking for the hammer, allowing them to prepare and do whatever tricky Tzeentch things they had up their sleeves.
Worth note that Sigmar himself cannot currently leave Azyr since he is the one that deploys the Stormcasts via lightning (every time there is a bright flash and Stormcasts appear it was Sigmar who threw that bolt of lightning). Also part of his godly power is invested in the Stormcasts, leaving him weakened.
[edit] The real flaw of Sigmar is that he is a warrior-god and even when devoting his efforts to ruling and politics he still lacks subtlety or good planning skills. When he decides to fight that is all he focuses on and he becomes a poor leader in the meantime. Just after he sealed off Azyr there was a civil war as different races of refugees turned on each other due to the manipulations of chaos cultists in their ranks; Sigmar's solution was to vaporize anyone who wanted to fight in that civil war regardless of why they wanted to.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/10 04:42:27
NinthMusketeer wrote: To respond to the spoiler'd portion...
Further, once a Seraphon is conjured he doesn't un-conjure until his death. Slann summoning on the battlefield isn't them pulling from their memory; it's them pulling already-existing seraphon from Azyr. If those Seraphon survive the battle then they go back to Azyr, only if they die does the Slann need to reconstruct them from memory again (and even then they still remember the battle they died in, etc).
True - it is said in the novel that they spend the time between battles in the calm of Azyr. It is a bit of lore I like a lot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/10 06:39:42
KiloFiX wrote: Conversely, if things were so desperate, how did Sigmar find all the time and material to build an entire fortress and space station out of gold (while a whole bunch of mortals did perish)?
And, why does he send someone else to find his hammer?
The moral-relativity topic aside, I can answer these. Sigmar built his big space station in Azyr, the realm that he retreated to and sealed off. It was the other seven realms that he left to the whims of Chaos. As for the second question, he sent Stormcasts to where he thought the hammer was, but did not tell said Stormcasts why they were going there. He did this because Azyr is magically shrouded to prevent outsiders (Tzeentch in this case) spying in, but the other realms are not. Thus, if the Stormcasts knew they were looking for the hammer then their enemies would have known they were looking for the hammer, allowing them to prepare and do whatever tricky Tzeentch things they had up their sleeves.
Worth note that Sigmar himself cannot currently leave Azyr since he is the one that deploys the Stormcasts via lightning (every time there is a bright flash and Stormcasts appear it was Sigmar who threw that bolt of lightning). Also part of his godly power is invested in the Stormcasts, leaving him weakened.
[edit] The real flaw of Sigmar is that he is a warrior-god and even when devoting his efforts to ruling and politics he still lacks subtlety or good planning skills. When he decides to fight that is all he focuses on and he becomes a poor leader in the meantime. Just after he sealed off Azyr there was a civil war as different races of refugees turned on each other due to the manipulations of chaos cultists in their ranks; Sigmar's solution was to vaporize anyone who wanted to fight in that civil war regardless of why they wanted to.
Wow, I assume that's in the grand alliance order tome? If that's the case I need to buy that book still this is not surprising he did remake the knights templar of sigmar aka witch hunters, they are not very nice people.
CoreCommander wrote: I just finished "Legends of The Age of Sigmar: Skaven Pestilence" and I must say I'm surprised. While other books of the series were nothing I felt the need to write about, this one was both fun and interesting and I can definitely recommend it.
This is indeed one of the best novels they have done for AoS so far. If you liked Pestilens, I would thoroughly recommend Fury of Gork - what Pestilens did for the Seraphon, Fury of Gork does for Orruks. A very, very good take on the orcs which does not just go down to the mindless beast trope.
CoreCommander wrote: I just finished "Legends of The Age of Sigmar: Skaven Pestilence" and I must say I'm surprised. While other books of the series were nothing I felt the need to write about, this one was both fun and interesting and I can definitely recommend it. 13 euro for the digital version is more than a fair price and having read it I wish I had the hardcover edition instead. So, onto the piece of lore I am about to share - not that much of a spoiler, but nonetheless I'm putting it in such a tag:
Concerning the Seraphon:
Spoiler:
The Slann have really ascended through the ages - once they were, mighty wizards, philosophers, seers and thinkers and now, while still being all of the above they have become something like an aspect of order (no surprise here) - the eternal antipodes of chaos. There is a scene where the lord celestant of the Astral templars sees one in it's "true form" (or maybe spirit form), one that was being mentioned in the entire novel as the eternal hunter of the Rat - the Great Serpent. In a spirit realm of a sort the slann starmaster takes the form of an enormous eternally coiling serpent, encompassing past, present and future - no wonder Dracothion took them in his house .
We all know that the seraphon are possibly the memories of the slann. The novel depicts them as such, but memories that have emerged in his dreams and that have taken certain aspects of his persona. They seem to retain their memories and essence in between engagements, while they spend their time in the calm of azyr (seems like nirvana or something, spending time in the storm for the stormcast or the time between reforging etc.). It is hard to say if the seraphon are star essence given form or essence of the original seraphon ascended into Azyr, but there is no doubt that they exist as a living being (without the need of sustenance) in their mortal forms. They believe themselves to be born of and to be living in the dream of the slann (and his dreams are very real, in the meaning of affecting the course of history as well as directly shaping reality). They even consider, and address the Stormcasts as "dreams of Sigmar". Given that stormacasts are Sigmar's ideal, might and plan for the realms made flesh, it is not too far fetched to say that the seraphon are as real as them in the mortal realms and are just manifested in a different way by the will of beings somewhat comparable to sigmar. In short, the seraphon are now born of the slann - they are the extension of his will as much as stormcasts are extension of Sigmar's one. They live and think while in their mortal forms and are no less real than anything that walks the realms. If you've played Final Fantasy X think of the relationship between fayth and aeons - Tidus was in fact a dream, but a very real one. As long as slann are the seraphon will be, much like daemons and their gods .
Hmm I know this topic is rather old but I am wondering what do you think of the lizardmen/seraphon fluff overall now? Considering your avatar I assume you collect them?
Hmm I know this topic is rather old but I am wondering what do you think of the lizardmen/seraphon fluff overall now? Considering your avatar I assume you collect them?
Yes, I collect them along with stormcast, bloodbound, aelfs, skaven and daemons - I haven't bought anything for them of late (because of the other armies), but in 2-3 months I should be buying the standard bearer and probably a stegadon. The backstory certainly lends itself well enough for the purposes of novel writing - it can be used to portray loss, ascension, raw power, tragedy, mysticism, intriguing plot hooks etc. I like it - it makes me want to buy more models which should say enough for my opinion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/23 12:46:43
This reminds of something that I was confused on. How did the realm come into being again? I know they have something to do with the Winds of Magic, but I'm not sure.
Apart from their connection to the winds of magic (and sometimes to old gods from the world-that-was), that has already been mentioned, there is not that much information regardin their creation. When Sigmar was awoken by Dracothion the realms were already there and though young already had been populated. Civilizations were beginning to emerge, great threats aswell etc.
Apart from their connection to the winds of magic (and sometimes to old gods from the world-that-was), that has already been mentioned, there is not that much information regardin their creation. When Sigmar was awoken by Dracothion the realms were already there and though young already had been populated. Civilizations were beginning to emerge, great threats aswell etc.
Thanks man. I was confused at first and wasn't sure about it.
Mannfred and Neferata survived the cataclysm of the old world for sure. Maybe there were others aswell. Baby vampires have been sired since then and the cycle continued.
Mannfred and Neferata survived the cataclysm of the old world for sure. Maybe there were others aswell. Baby vampires have been sired since then and the cycle continued.
I know the Hunt for Nagash audio dramas had some vampires in it
Mannfred and Neferata survived the cataclysm of the old world for sure. Maybe there were others aswell. Baby vampires have been sired since then and the cycle continued.
And I find this the perfect explanation if GW ever wanted to go back to Fantasy to flesh out AoS would be a great idea. Everything is on a Grand scale right now. I want to know more about the common folk. I want to know more about the towns and villages. I am sure we still have Kingdoms where we have Queens and Kings, settlements that haven't been touched by Chaos yet.
So going back to Fantasy for people who want that game can still play it and still be in the AoS universe. For those who want smaller and cheaper games can play AoS. Someone said it's impossible for Fantasy to come back to AoS. But as CoreCommander said, "... the cycle continued."
So life goes on.
Now have I missed it, or is there books or fluff on the common people? Be it humans, rats, orks or what ever race? Have we seen their point of view? If so, what books so I may see if I want to buy them. If not, maybe GW needs to start making AoS more personal on a level we can relate to. I mean one great thing about Lord of the Rings is we could relate to the villagers and know their plight. What book may I have missed that showed this?
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Mannfred and Neferata survived the cataclysm of the old world for sure. Maybe there were others aswell. Baby vampires have been sired since then and the cycle continued.
And I find this the perfect explanation if GW ever wanted to go back to Fantasy to flesh out AoS would be a great idea. Everything is on a Grand scale right now. I want to know more about the common folk. I want to know more about the towns and villages. I am sure we still have Kingdoms where we have Queens and Kings, settlements that haven't been touched by Chaos yet.
So going back to Fantasy for people who want that game can still play it and still be in the AoS universe. For those who want smaller and cheaper games can play AoS. Someone said it's impossible for Fantasy to come back to AoS. But as CoreCommander said, "... the cycle continued."
So life goes on.
Now have I missed it, or is there books or fluff on the common people? Be it humans, rats, orks or what ever race? Have we seen their point of view? If so, what books so I may see if I want to buy them. If not, maybe GW needs to start making AoS more personal on a level we can relate to. I mean one great thing about Lord of the Rings is we could relate to the villagers and know their plight. What book may I have missed that showed this?
Gates of Azyr had a group of humans trying to survive by moving place to place when Chaos forces were moving around freely. Prisoner of the Black Sun had a people who still lived out their old life on Shyish, which is pretty interesting to read what that was. There are more fluff and story peices that has people survive.
There are bits and pieces of common folk stories scattered throughout but there is not a specific source that focuses on them. That said they certainly do exist and are at least referred to reasonably often.
Since Grand Alliance Order we've gotten quite a few tidbits from the fluff sections (it's been great for me - just enough to really place my army in the Mortal Realms and get my imagination running. Forum users may recall I struggled somewhat with the fluff to begin with when so much was unclear).
It's the little lines of description that add colour to the Free Peoples. For example of Outriders and Pistoliers it is mentioned that they patrol the outer districts of human cities.
Just little lines like that set my imagination off. So there are cities scattered now across the realms - some perhaps like US frontier towns as the Free Peoples move back out into the realms, others in Azyr, others maybe reclaimed or refound cities that have survived total destruction from Chaos.
So they have cities, and these cities have districts? Well, that makes me thing these cities are going to be traditional human settlements with a central hub of commerce and farmlands and industry stretching outwards. Cool.
So these Outriders are patrolling these districts? Firstly that's their job. So they have an employer - they are part of a standing force. Probably suggests some form of government and taxes too. Why are they patrolling these districts? Outside threats or inside threats? Probably both. If we have commercial centres and taxes, we'll no doubt have thieves and beggars too. Probably smugglers as well. All of a sudden a Mordheim style game seems pretty reasonable in one of these Settlements. Of course, this is the Mortal Realms so the Outriders could be on the look out for rampaging armies of any faction coming to flatten the town and slaughtered the inhabitants.
Oh, now I've got a reason to fight this next battle and some real consequences if I lose.
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
Now here is a question. Is there fluff or stories of the common person who is not human? Like Orks, Skaven or what not?
One thing I really hope for AoS is they don't give everything in the point of view from The Order like they do in 40K where everything is in the view of Imperium of Man. I would really love to see it from the view point of the actual races in AoS. (40K as well, )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/26 22:21:56
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
There are a ton of short stories about relatively unimportant chaos leaders and their warbands, and a decent amount of things from a skaven pestilens perspective. Ork perspective is limited to the Ironjaws at the moment, while undead don't really have a 'common' perspective to speak of.
.
