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Hey guys. With the new nice Psychic abilities Space Marines got, I am switching from playing my beloved Dark Angels Lions Blade Strike Force to a IH & Ravenwing star. Of course i got libbies with me and a whole lot of punch on bikes. Still there is nothing more frightening than either a Wraithknight, Imperial Knight or Stormsurge since charging them means one thing: Get lucky on those stomps or game over. So, I was wondering how people try to kill a Wraithknight in close combat before he is able to stomp. There are not that many great CC weapons that hit on the own initiative step. Most (like thunderhammers, power fists, etc.) hit with Ini 1 which means incoming stomps. Force Staves are pretty cool when turning force on, still you have to get through a 3+, FnP with S5. So slim chances to really do anything.

So heres my question? What combos, weapons etc are there to kill those huge threats? (most of the time playing against eldar or tau means there are 2 huge dudes on the other side of the table so killing at least one eraly on with minor casualties would be a good thing indeed).

I don't think you should be trying to kill them in CC, but from afar. I know it's a boring answer but a Drop Pod full of Gravcents with a Libby to ignore cover (Hunter's Eye or Perfect Timing) is still your best bet.

You also may be looking at it the wrong way.

For one thing, you don't have to be lucky on stomps to survive - he has to get lucky to do any real damage. It's a 6 or nothing much happens to space marines.

Also, while lucky stomps are annoying, trading a couple thunderhammers for a wraithknight isn't too terribly bad.

But if you want something that hits GMCs/SHWs hard before stomps, about the only thing in the SM codex I can think of are assault cents. They get quite a few at-initiative str 9 ap2 attacks, if I recall correctly.

@ Lammikkovalas yeah I used Grav Cents and lately I am with a Cataphractii Terminator with Hunters Eye and Storm Shield in a Drop Pod with Devs and 3 Grav Cannons within my Gladius (if a play it as Gladius). Easier access and same result as the Grav Cents. But the thing is: I don't want to bring any shooting with me bar 3 Whirlwinds that i need for the core part of the fist of medusa.

@ Kap'n Krump
well that is a brighter way to look at things, cheers But I am looking for a solution for my bikestar of IH and RW and the only things that i got with me that are not in the star are 3 whirlwinds, 3 scout squads and 2 attack bikes^^


I now got several ideas for killing one of those things on the charge. First, I got my Interrogator Chaplain the Mace of redemption. S7 (S9 with hammerhand) AP3 on initiative is pretty nice and with zealot and preferred enemy its pretty cool. But what is more important: Hammerhand and Libbies with Force Staves, Force Power switched on. Fielding 3 libbies we got 12 attacks on the charge with zealot and preferred enemy, S8 AP4 instakilling so no FnP. I'd say that is something to look at.

opinions?

Taking a GMC on in cc is almost impossible to do with one power unit. Here is my tactic: use psychic shreek to soften it up first by removing a few wounds, then charge it with your cc power unit. I do this with the DP with the black mace and it works a charm.
For you I would say dip one of your libbies into telepathy for psychic shreek then activate your force weapons and go to town.
A WK is a lot less threatening when it only has four wounds left and your are negating its FnP.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Taking a GMC on in cc is almost impossible to do with one power unit. Here is my tactic: use psychic shreek to soften it up first by removing a few wounds, then charge it with your cc power unit. I do this with the DP with the black mace and it works a charm.
For you I would say dip one of your libbies into telepathy for psychic shreek then activate your force weapons and go to town.
A WK is a lot less threatening when it only has four wounds left and your are negating its FnP.

+1 to this. I can't tell you how many times I have lost a WK because it had a few wounds on it.

TWC are also really, REALLY good at killing GMCs. Here's 20 attacks that wound on 2+ and ignore your armour save!

TWC are a real assault unit. Most other "assault" units are worthless in 7th.

Martel732 wrote:
TWC are a real assault unit. Most other "assault" units are worthless in 7th.

Why is it that you can make the point that most cc units in 7th are awful yet in a different thread you are arguing to nerf MC: perhaps some of the few cc units that can still do their job.
(Sorry, that was a bit of a jab )

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
TWC are a real assault unit. Most other "assault" units are worthless in 7th.

Why is it that you can make the point that most cc units in 7th are awful yet in a different thread you are arguing to nerf MC: perhaps some of the few cc units that can still do their job.
(Sorry, that was a bit of a jab )

Units. Units of individual soliders. Not MCs. TWC is a unit of MCs, so of course it is incredible.

TWC are awesome but i don't own any space wolves nor am I a huge fan of those puppies. I want to stay with ravenwing and iron hands. Though you are right, they are insanely powerful. Softening with shriek is really good since i may have to go for invis at some point.
So we got shriek, hammerhand and force staves plus mace of redemption and sammaels sword all on Initiative with zealot and preferred enemy. I think i might shaft my 2nd techmarine for a 4th libbie then ^^

Martel732 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
TWC are a real assault unit. Most other "assault" units are worthless in 7th.

Why is it that you can make the point that most cc units in 7th are awful yet in a different thread you are arguing to nerf MC: perhaps some of the few cc units that can still do their job.
(Sorry, that was a bit of a jab )

Units. Units of individual soliders. Not MCs. TWC is a unit of MCs, so of course it is incredible.

So why should 'units' of 'individual soldiers' be treated any different to MCs? MCs are meant to be hard to take down because many of them can only have one on their own and they are expensive.

The point still stands they are one of the few cc units that can actually get stuff done and taking their rules away from them nerfs cc AGAIN.

Against WK and stormsurges... Grav is the best answer. I would run IH Command squad on bikes with grav guns and SS. Libby cast prescience. 15 re-roll grav shots usually means a dead or severely wounded GMC. If it's toe is in ruin cover, you drop a auspex on it.

If it survives and charges you next turn, 15 grav re-roll over watch shots should finish him off.

If that doesn't finish him off, you should have some S8 attacks in your bike star, Captain with fist and techmarine with servoarm. Your libbies should have force axes and one of them should have the relic Mindforge stave which is basically a power fist with force and without the "specialist weapon".

Grav cannons

As said earlier, i know grav is boss. But that is not cc ;-) plus 15 grav shots are enough for a WK but a Stormsurge will survive.
The mindforce stave and Power axes are great weapons but all unwieldy. So there will bei stomping which is what i try to avoid.
other ideas than staves, hammerhand and shreek? Are there relics,specific characters or special war gear from other chapters?

Librarius conclave with powerswords and staves (either bypassing his 3+ and FNP or just the FNP for better wounding, casting force, warpspeed, iron arm and prescience (or a chaplain for zealot), accompanied by a commandsquad with powerlances, the standard of the emperor ascendant and a chaptermaster with the burning blade.

A unit of honour guard with relic blades and the company standard with the same librarius conclave and chaptermaster from a LRC would do the trick as well.

You could try to add electrodisplacement to get into combat first turn or veil of time or invisibility for added survivability.

Stacking might of heroes with warpspeed and iron arm using a force sword or a burning blade would cause alot of problems as well. 7 initiative 9, s9 or 10 attacks at AP 2 or 3 all instakilling is nothing to sniff at. Being T10 on a bike adds to your survivability, you could also throw on the panoply of the crusader and shield eternal for a 2+, 3++ and a 4+ deny the witch. I'm not exactly sure if everything legally stacks though. Add in a chappy for rerolls to hit and you're golden.

FrequentRespawn wrote:
As said earlier, i know grav is boss. But that is not cc ;-) plus 15 grav shots are enough for a WK but a Stormsurge will survive.
The mindforce stave and Power axes are great weapons but all unwieldy. So there will bei stomping which is what i try to avoid.
other ideas than staves, hammerhand and shreek? Are there relics,specific characters or special war gear from other chapters?

Well CC is not the best option... but if you insist then you can give your chapter master or captain the Burning Blade relic which is +3S, AP2 for a whopping 55 pts. Is it worth taking? Heck no... and neither will you be able to kill a WK with it alone. Also you can't always rely on psychic powers, ONE: you might not roll that iron arm or hammer hand, TWO: Eldars are the best at deny the witch.

Let say you don't roll any buffing powers or got denied, your S7 Chapter Master w burning blade only wounds on 5s, not gonna do much to a WK even if he roll all his hits. You have a better chance just hitting a WK with unwieldy weapons, and surviving his stomp attacks.

PS: Don't even think about taking on a IK in CC without powerfists or thunder hammers, regardless you will get stomped on.

Those are all great ideas. Burning blade in specific. As a DA Player i never heard of that before.

nvm

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You also may be looking at it the wrong way.

For one thing, you don't have to be lucky on stomps to survive - he has to get lucky to do any real damage. It's a 6 or nothing much happens to space marines.

Also, while lucky stomps are annoying, trading a couple thunderhammers for a wraithknight isn't too terribly bad.

But if you want something that hits GMCs/SHWs hard before stomps, about the only thing in the SM codex I can think of are assault cents. They get quite a few at-initiative str 9 ap2 attacks, if I recall correctly.

Assault Centurions have a pair of Siege Drills, which are Strength X2, AP2, Armourbane weapons. That gives Ass Cents 3 S10 Armourbane attacks each at WS4, I4 on the charge. Odds are they'll mince an Imperial Knight on the charge, even if you do lose them in return. However they'll fail miserably against a Wraithknight and even struggle against a Stormsurge, due to how much better the Gargantuan Monstrous Creature rules are over the Super-Heavy Vehicle ones.

If you want to try to take a GMC down in Melee, about the only viable options are to swamp it with S8+ hits, or use Instant Death attacks that are wounding it on a reasonable roll and ignore its armour save. Unfortunately the first option almost always means you're attacking last (given most S8 stuff is Unwieldy, and even if its not the Wraithknight is still Initiative 5...) and the second option is very rare. About the only way Space Marines will do the 2nd way is a Biomancy Librarian with a Force Staff that happens to get Force, Iron Arm and Warp Speed off. Which good luck against one of the best Psychic armies in the game.

yeah, killing those huge threads is basically impossible without a conclave and mass force attacks. Either way, Hammerhand is key to geht through a T8 of a wraithknight. It seems that double wraithknight is a common site nowadays so the idea of reliably killing one before he stomps to avoid losses stick.
based on my list my star contains of:
3 lvl 2 libbies with stave, interrogator chaplain with mace of redemption, sammael, chapter master with gorgons chain and thunderhammer (still questionable), biker command squad with storm shields and power fists, 2 techmarines.
Since I play a Medusa Strike force, the Iron hands bikers are very resilient even without veil of time or invisibility. Which they have to be, since we can all agree I need to switch on force of all 3 weapons and have hammerhand. Should be doable, only problem is getting heavy deny the witch roles from the Eldar. Which is very likely.

Wulfen with axes will make short work of most GCs out there. Toss a TH/SS or two in to soak the wounds, just in case you are fighting one of the daemon lords, otherwise Wulfen will strike at the same time, if not before the GC, and they will kill it. They are slower than TWC, but they hit much harder. I havent seen anything that the wulfen blender cannot kill.

Worst case, the GMC stomps, kills all the wulfen, and you get another pile in and attack on it.

Killing a Wraithknight in CC is not advisable however force weapons really do hurt the them... so a conclave on bikes running force, hammerhand and invisibility will wreak a Wraithknight dead at I4 (if you can get the wounds to stick) and a Stormsurge no problem (if you can get into combat with them). The question is why? Against an Imperial knight you'll have to put up with the stomps before you hit them regardless so shooting them is always going to be the best option if you want to avoid stomps...

Your only other option is to run your own big mechanical beastie yourself.

FrequentRespawn wrote:
Those are all great ideas. Burning blade in specific. As a DA Player i never heard of that before.

I think Belial is a choice against WK if you play DA, he has the fleshbane AP3 sword that is meant to deal with MC and GMC. I don't know Sammeal's weapons, But if it get some big bonus on strength, he might stand a chance as well. Just remember to use a bunch of grav guns to pick off 2 or 3 wounds from that WK, while it will be dropped to I1, so your charging heros may stand a chance to kill it before the D sword swinging.
As Ultramarine, if I planned to assault the WK, I may take Papa Calgar and use the similar tactics above, use a squad of Grav Centurion to (probably) knock the WK down to his last 2 wounds, then the big Papa lead his 4man Chapter banner and relic blade Honor Guard assault the GMC to claim the price, 7 S8 AP2 I5 attacks and 16 I6 attacks should be able to cut through the rest two wounds with "only" a 5++ and FnP before I1 step.
But Anyway, all these method need a lot of "just as planned". Any unlucky, "a little bit below average" dice rolling to hit / to wound on the Astartes sides, and/or "a little above average" rolling on the saves of the Eldar side will see the WK survive to I1 step, to when you can only pray for the best he don't roll six with the D sword and stomp.
More importantly, all S8+ and AP2/3 not unwieldy and/or fleshbane weapons in the Marines arsenal are only carried by a few "hero" special units (one per army), who are slow as hell by themselves compared to the ultra mobil Eldar army. So in realistic, these SM heros may never catch the jumping GMC, while being shot off the table in two rounds by Scatbikes or Warp Spiders.

Instant death (or str d) weapons are the best way to kill a GMC in combat. D3 wounds and No FNP means a dead MC/GMC.

The problem is ap3 instant death melee weapons are few and far even if you include force wpns.

Wraithknights are a bit bigger problem because few units hit at Int5 or faster meaning your unit has to survive 4-5 atks at str10 Ap2 (not counting the str d version which few people take). Good luck with that... Your best bet is grav spam and shooting it to death.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You also may be looking at it the wrong way.

For one thing, you don't have to be lucky on stomps to survive - he has to get lucky to do any real damage. It's a 6 or nothing much happens to space marines.

Also, while lucky stomps are annoying, trading a couple thunderhammers for a wraithknight isn't too terribly bad.

But if you want something that hits GMCs/SHWs hard before stomps, about the only thing in the SM codex I can think of are assault cents. They get quite a few at-initiative str 9 ap2 attacks, if I recall correctly.

Assault Centurions have a pair of Siege Drills, which are Strength X2, AP2, Armourbane weapons. That gives Ass Cents 3 S10 Armourbane attacks each at WS4, I4 on the charge. Odds are they'll mince an Imperial Knight on the charge, even if you do lose them in return. However they'll fail miserably against a Wraithknight and even struggle against a Stormsurge, due to how much better the Gargantuan Monstrous Creature rules are over the Super-Heavy Vehicle ones.

If you want to try to take a GMC down in Melee, about the only viable options are to swamp it with S8+ hits, or use Instant Death attacks that are wounding it on a reasonable roll and ignore its armour save. Unfortunately the first option almost always means you're attacking last (given most S8 stuff is Unwieldy, and even if its not the Wraithknight is still Initiative 5...) and the second option is very rare. About the only way Space Marines will do the 2nd way is a Biomancy Librarian with a Force Staff that happens to get Force, Iron Arm and Warp Speed off. Which good luck against one of the best Psychic armies in the game.

Basically what this guy said!

Wulfen with axes do pretty well.