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Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Should every Daemon enginge then become a MC as well? Helbrute, Fiends, Heldrake, Soul Grinder? They are living machines, they are exactly like tyranid monsters, just with a mechanical body instead of an organic one (if you look at the Helbrute model, it's not even fully mechanic). They might be more consciuos depending on how we interpet the Daemons inside...

Clearly not. Because they are MACHINES and not ANIMALS, they need a mechanic to fix them and can blow up if I hit them just right with a lascannon.

Well it's alive and therefore an MC.

Doesn't follow. I gave a 3 stage flow-chart.

You also said use the "most common sense understanding of the term." I took that to be the definition from Google.. Make up your mind and come back.

pm713 wrote:You also said use the "most common sense understanding of the term." I took that to be the definition from Google.. Make up your mind and come back.

Again. Three stage flow-chart.

"Is it alive?" or "Is it an animal?" was only the first stage of that flowchart. It could fail to be an MC if it fails the other 2 requirements.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:You also said use the "most common sense understanding of the term." I took that to be the definition from Google.. Make up your mind and come back.

Again. Three stage flow-chart.

"Is it alive?" or "Is it an animal?" was only the first stage of that flowchart. It could fail to be an MC if it fails the other 2 requirements.

So you've moved your goalposts then.

pm713 wrote:So you've moved your goalposts then.

I didn't move my goalposts. I gave a three stage flowchart to roughly the following effect:

1. Is it alive? Is it an animal?

If yes: go to question 2.
If no: vehicle

2. Does it require a mechanic to fix it?

If yes: vehicle
If no: go to question 3.

If I hit it just right with a lascannon, does it go boom?

If yes: vehicle.
If no: MC.

The whole everything needs a fix.

im honestly not sure how in the world a giant mech suit which obviously has just as many complicated electical equipment isnt affected by haywire which tends to disrupt or damage those systems.

like wise are also generally made of the same armor as tanks but melta doesn't get an additional bonus (though in most cases doesn't really mater with T6 or so MC.) also doesn't have a save for some reason.

vehicles are in a super gaky spot.

its should just be infantry, vehicles, larges (bio and mechanical). all of them should be T based to keep everything similar. give extra rules for vehicles flanks and rears and Close combat rules. Bio should only be for things like daemons and tyranides. Mechanicals should be all dreads and things that are made of metal even if its being piloted. fix haywire poison and the likes and it should be ok.

if eldar want to be special snowflakes then give them a special large classification.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:So you've moved your goalposts then.

I didn't move my goalposts. I gave a three stage flowchart to roughly the following effect:

1. Is it alive? Is it an animal?

If yes: go to question 2.
If no: vehicle

2. Does it require a mechanic to fix it?

If yes: vehicle
If no: go to question 3.

If I hit it just right with a lascannon, does it go boom?

If yes: vehicle.
If no: MC.

Which shifted your goalposts from the previous is it mechanical or organic argument.

 Sidstyler wrote:


Also, as I've said before, I would argue that if crisis suits should have vehicle stats then so too should literally all Space Marine infantry that aren't scouts (including centurions), as a crisis suit behaves more like a slightly larger, less-sophisticated suit of power armored infantry with a jet pack (which is actually very well-represented with its stat line, being comparable to a Marine but with an extra wound) than it does a piloted vehicle.

I beg your fething pardon. Less sophisticated? Space Marine power armor doesn't let them see in the dark.

pm713 689446 wrote:Which shifted your goalposts from the previous is it mechanical or organic argument.

Demon engines aren't mechanical?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also wish to point out that there's no comparison between power armor and a crisis suit.

Power armor is just a suit of armor which is battery powered. The space marine isn't piloting his armor. The marine is moving because he's actually moving his legs and walking.

@Traditio : Your Lascannon question doesn't really hold for the flowchart because this is in itself dependent on the game mechanics rather than a proper quality of the object. Maybe Exocrines would blow up with a Lascannon shot to their bioplasma reservoirs ?

Your two other questions I agree with.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 689446 wrote:Which shifted your goalposts from the previous is it mechanical or organic argument.

Demon engines aren't mechanical?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also wish to point out that there's no comparison between power armor and a crisis suit.

Power armor is just a suit of armor which is battery powered. The space marine isn't piloting his armor. The marine is moving because he's actually moving his legs and walking.

It's a mix. They have mechanical and organic bits. Not that it matters your chart doesn't help your point much either considering your view of Wraithknights.

GreyCrow wrote:
@Traditio : Your Lascannon question doesn't really hold for the flowchart because this is in itself dependent on the game mechanics rather than a proper quality of the object. Maybe Exocrines would blow up with a Lascannon shot to their bioplasma reservoirs ?

Your two other questions I agree with.

It's not really a game mechanics question.

Is there any reason why a Riptide shouldn't explode if it's hit in just the right spot under just the right conditions?

There's a compelling reason why a carnifex shouldn't explode (other, perhaps, than in a shower of gore, bones and flesh...and even then, not really) if it's hit by a lascannon.

At any rate, exocrines vs. tau battle suits: different kind of explosion. I'm talking about the kind that goes KABOOM.

If it KABOOMS, it's a vehicle.

Traditio wrote:

GreyCrow wrote:
@Traditio : Your Lascannon question doesn't really hold for the flowchart because this is in itself dependent on the game mechanics rather than a proper quality of the object. Maybe Exocrines would blow up with a Lascannon shot to their bioplasma reservoirs ?

Your two other questions I agree with.

It's not really a game mechanics question.

Is there any reason why a Riptide shouldn't explode if it's hit in just the right spot under just the right conditions?

There's a compelling reason why a carnifex shouldn't explode (other, perhaps, than in a shower of gore, bones and flesh...and even then, not really) if it's hit by a lascannon.

At any rate, exocrines vs. tau battle suits: different kind of explosion. I'm talking about the kind that goes KABOOM.

If it KABOOMS, it's a vehicle.

Flawed logic. Some Tyranids will explode but are not vehicles.

pm713 wrote:It's a mix. They have mechanical and organic bits.

Thus the need for a flowchart!

Not that it matters your chart doesn't help your point much either considering your view of Wraithknights.

Wraith constructs potentially could go either way.

My chart mainly rules out obvious bull excrement like dreadknights and riptides being MCs.

The wraithknight is a hard case.

You could go through the flowchart and say that the wraithknight is an MC.

Is it alive? Yes. It is a composite of a wraithbone body and eldar soul ("located" in the soul stone).

Does it require a mechanic to fix it? No. Wraithbone heals itself.

Does it go boom if a lascannon hits it just right? No. It isn't made up of mechanical bits, nor does it have an engine or any kind of combustible power source.

Note, I'm not giving these answers positively. I don't know what the actual answers are.

It could be that a wraithknight is a complex machine and has a combustible power source which goes KABOOM if you lascannon it just right.

I don't know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:Flawed logic. Some Tyranids will explode but are not vehicles.

Which tyrranids KABOOM?

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:It's a mix. They have mechanical and organic bits.

Thus the need for a flowchart!

Not that it matters your chart doesn't help your point much either considering your view of Wraithknights.

Wraith constructs potentially could go either way.

My chart mainly rules out obvious bull excrement like dreadknights and riptides being MCs.

The wraithknight is a hard case.

You could go through the flowchart and say that the wraithknight is an MC.

Is it alive? Yes. It is a composite of a wraithbone body and eldar soul ("located" in the soul stone).

Does it require a mechanic to fix it? No. Wraithbone heals itself.

Does it go boom if a lascannon hits it just right? No. It isn't made up of mechanical bits, nor does it have an engine or any kind of combustible power source.

Note, I'm not giving these answers positively. I don't know what the actual answers are.

It could be that a wraithknight is a complex machine and has a combustible power source which goes KABOOM if you lascannon it just right.

I don't know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:Flawed logic. Some Tyranids will explode but are not vehicles.

Which tyrranids KABOOM?

Your flowchart is bad. Is it alive. Kinda. Well where do we go from here?

Literally any of them that use a flammable gas. Which could be a lot. Tyranids make creatures as they need them. Plus Spore Mines.

@Traditio : Explosions are really dependent on whether the vehicle shot at carries containers of explosive/flammable substance. Who's to say a Riptide carries that ? Maybe its power source is purely electrical with a plastic/ceramite composite for the armour. I may be wrong, but I don't think lead or lithium batteries explode when exposed to intense heat or energy (even if they catch on fire).

That's why the Lascannon question is a bit unnecessary, because we don't have enough info to rightfully assess the reaction of a 40k unit to a lascannon shot.

GreyCrow wrote:
@Traditio : Explosions are really dependent on whether the vehicle shot at carries containers of explosive/flammable substance. Who's to say a Riptide carries that ? Maybe its power source is purely electrical with a plastic/ceramite composite for the armour. I may be wrong, but I don't think lead or lithium batteries explode when exposed to intense heat or energy (even if they catch on fire).

That's why the Lascannon question is a bit unnecessary, because we don't have enough info to rightfully assess the reaction of a 40k unit to a lascannon shot.

In all fairness, it is somewhat important for the game. If I roll a 7+ on the vehicle damage table, it KABOOMs.

I also wish to note that wave serpents and Ghost Arks KABOOM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, that's a compelling consideration. Is there that big of a difference, mechanically, between a wave serpent and a wraith construct?

If not, then if one is a vehicle, then all should be, and if one is monstrous, then all shoot be.

If wave serpents can KABOOM, then so can all wraith constructs.

But you're going away from your flowchart and thinking comparatively here, so what good is there to have a flow chart in the first place ? :p

Just trolling a bit !

___

How about the following change to how High Strength (S8+) weapons inflict wounds ?
If the Strength of the weapon is double the Toughness, then it causes instant death.
If a weapon has a Strength of S8 or over, any unsaved wounds inflicts 2 wounds.
If a S8+ weapon has an AP2 or an AP1, it inflicts 3 wounds instead.

Considering these weapons have higher chances to set vehicles ablaze, they should do more damage to living creatures.

GreyCrow wrote:
But you're going away from your flowchart and thinking comparatively here, so what good is there to have a flow chart in the first place ? :p

Just trolling a bit !

___

How about the following change to how High Strength (S8+) weapons inflict wounds ?
If the Strength of the weapon is double the Toughness, then it causes instant death.
If a weapon has a Strength over S8, any unsaved wounds inflicts 2 wounds.
If a S8+ weapon has an AP2 or an AP1, it inflicts 3 wounds instead.

Considering these weapons have higher chances to set vehicles ablaze, they should do more damage to living creatures.

Why shouldn't krak missiles deal 2 wounds? Meltaguns?

Krak Missiles in that framework deal 2 wounds. Lascannons and Meltas would deal 3 (because they're AP2 and AP1).
It would give an interesting twist to high strength weapons vs high rate of fire weapons. If a Melta has a good chance to slag a Land Raider, it should seriously damage a Carnifex or a Wraithknight.
It's also a nod to 2nd ed rules where high strength weapons inflicted a variable number of wounds (2d6 wounds for A Lascan when Carnifexes had 10 wounds).

For "fairness", we could extend that AP2 adding +1 wound to D weapons, so they would deal 2 to 4 wounds per roll of 2 to 5.

EDIT : Sorry, I reread my post and I had a typo. I meant S8 not S>8. Fixed !

Traditio wrote:


Why shouldn't krak missiles deal 2 wounds?

Imperial technology sucks ass.

Traditio wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Should every Daemon enginge then become a MC as well? Helbrute, Fiends, Heldrake, Soul Grinder? They are living machines, they are exactly like tyranid monsters, just with a mechanical body instead of an organic one (if you look at the Helbrute model, it's not even fully mechanic). They might be more consciuos depending on how we interpet the Daemons inside...

Clearly not. Because they are MACHINES and not ANIMALS, they need a mechanic to fix them and can blow up if I hit them just right with a lascannon.

OK, let's split the difference. They can stay vehicles like they are now, except poisoned weapons glance them on a 4+ and when they take enough damage they have to take a Morale/Instability test or run away/lose more hull points. Sound good?

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:OK, let's split the difference. They can stay vehicles like they are now, except poisoned weapons glance them on a 4+ and when they take enough damage they have to take a Morale/Instability test or run away/lose more hull points. Sound good?

Fluff reasons aside:

That seems like a big nerf, no?

Traditio wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:OK, let's split the difference. They can stay vehicles like they are now, except poisoned weapons glance them on a 4+ and when they take enough damage they have to take a Morale/Instability test or run away/lose more hull points. Sound good?

Fluff reasons aside:

That seems like a big nerf, no?

The point of the thread is to nerf every non-Imperial faction.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

The point of the thread is to nerf every non-Imperial faction.

Obviously, our master plan has been revealed. Abort now !

But yeah, it's not like MCs/GMCs were purely balanced either.

Merellin wrote:
So, why isent the Grey Knights Dreadknight on the list? It's a giant robot with a babycarrier! Is it just because it is part of the Imperium of Man and they are allowed to do what ever they want?

No, as I said, earlier it is because I completely forgot about that horrendous model, as well as the Tau Ghostkeel

Traditio wrote:

GreyCrow wrote:
@Traditio : Explosions are really dependent on whether the vehicle shot at carries containers of explosive/flammable substance. Who's to say a Riptide carries that ? Maybe its power source is purely electrical with a plastic/ceramite composite for the armour. I may be wrong, but I don't think lead or lithium batteries explode when exposed to intense heat or energy (even if they catch on fire).

That's why the Lascannon question is a bit unnecessary, because we don't have enough info to rightfully assess the reaction of a 40k unit to a lascannon shot.

In all fairness, it is somewhat important for the game. If I roll a 7+ on the vehicle damage table, it KABOOMs.

I also wish to note that wave serpents and Ghost Arks KABOOM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, that's a compelling consideration. Is there that big of a difference, mechanically, between a wave serpent and a wraith construct?

If not, then if one is a vehicle, then all should be, and if one is monstrous, then all shoot be.

If wave serpents can KABOOM, then so can all wraith constructs.

There is a difference in construction between a wave serpent and a wraithknight. The wave serpent has a pilot and controls. On th emodel itself there is a control panel and targeting system etc. There are no souls contained withing the structure of a wave serpent. In the lore a wraithknight has the soul of a twin that died. The other twin is put into a near permanent trance (much like a coma) to become one with the construct. The combination of the interred Eldar and the soul of his twin (and all the souls of the eldar who previously made use of the suit) allow the still alive Eldar to move the contruct as if it were his own body. This is why they are so fast and agile. The entire contruct becomes the Eldar's extremities. Also there is no power source on a wraithknight that would make it go boom. Even the weapons are charged using psychic energies.

Xerics wrote:There is a difference in construction between a wave serpent and a wraithknight. The wave serpent has a pilot and controls. On th emodel itself there is a control panel and targeting system etc. There are no souls contained withing the structure of a wave serpent. In the lore a wraithknight has the soul of a twin that died. The other twin is put into a near permanent trance (much like a coma) to become one with the construct. The combination of the interred Eldar and the soul of his twin (and all the souls of the eldar who previously made use of the suit) allow the still alive Eldar to move the contruct as if it were his own body. This is why they are so fast and agile. The entire contruct becomes the Eldar's extremities. Also there is no power source on a wraithknight that would make it go boom. Even the weapons are charged using psychic energies.

I am going to ask a simple question:

What is it about the construction of a wave serpent that facilitates it KABOOMing, and what is it about the construction of a wraithknight that prevents it from KABOOMing?

Telling me that the wave serpent has a control panel, a pilot, etc. doesn't really explain the mechanical features or lack thereof which either facilitate or prevent KABOOMs.

I'm assuming the following:

The wraithknight is a wraithbone construct. That means that some pointy eared space elf built the thing.

Saying that it's animated by an eldar spirit doesn't prove that it should be an MC instead of a vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It just occurred to me:

If wraithguard were walkers, they couldn't ride in wave serpents.

Roflcopter!

pm713 wrote:
Except not all those have pilots. Also why is a Centurion infantry but not a Dreadnought? They are very similar in size.

I could be Wrong with Centurions and Wraithguard since I've never actually seen those models IRL, just in videos, but I assumed they were smaller than a Dread, but larger than a Termie.

But outside of literal Monstrous Creatures( Demons, Bugs), there is no reason anything else should be a Monstrous Creature.

If a Demon Bound to a Robot is a Walker, a Magic Space Elf Golem with a Space elf soul bound to it is a Walker.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I could be Wrong with Centurions and Wraithguard since I've never actually seen those models IRL, just in videos, but I assumed they were smaller than a Dread, but larger than a Termie.

But outside of literal Monstrous Creatures( Demons, Bugs), there is no reason anything else should be a Monstrous Creature.

If a Demon Bound to a Robot is a Walker, a Magic Space Elf Golem with a Space elf soul bound to it is a Walker.

I'm basically in agreement with this, but I do have my doubts.

Are golems really to be considered walkers?

And what about necrons?

Traditio wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I could be Wrong with Centurions and Wraithguard since I've never actually seen those models IRL, just in videos, but I assumed they were smaller than a Dread, but larger than a Termie.

But outside of literal Monstrous Creatures( Demons, Bugs), there is no reason anything else should be a Monstrous Creature.

If a Demon Bound to a Robot is a Walker, a Magic Space Elf Golem with a Space elf soul bound to it is a Walker.

I'm basically in agreement with this, but I do have my doubts.

Are golems really to be considered walkers?

And what about necrons?

Anything Infantry Sized should just be Infantry, for the sake of Simplicity.

But as long as we have two classes of Giant Walkers, Vehicle Walker and Monstrous Creature, we need to have firm rules on what is what. If it bleeds, It's a Monstrous Creature. If it doesn't, it's a Vehicle.

That being said Life would be so much easier if anything using the Walker Profile was just changed into a Monstrous Creature and Vehicles pretty much just covered Tanks, Fliers, and APCs.