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 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

If this were true Deep strike itself would not work...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

If this were true Deep strike itself would not work...

It overrides this by being a form of Moving On From Reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
I think you're going to have an uphill battle convincing a lot of people that the scouts are doing anything outside what is allowed by the core rules. The Vets on the other hand, are. They're checking to see what other units are on the table when they land and then rolling or not rolling scatter based on what they see.

As evidenced by the responses on this forum.

If it wasn't specific units involved, I would agree completely. However, it IS those specific units, so there is leeway in the interpretation, albeit not a large one.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

If this were true Deep strike itself would not work...

It overrides this by being a form of Moving On From Reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
I think you're going to have an uphill battle convincing a lot of people that the scouts are doing anything outside what is allowed by the core rules. The Vets on the other hand, are. They're checking to see what other units are on the table when they land and then rolling or not rolling scatter based on what they see.

As evidenced by the responses on this forum.

If it wasn't specific units involved, I would agree completely. However, it IS those specific units, so there is leeway in the interpretation, albeit not a large one.

Yup. Enough leeway for a good, old fashioned YMDC bicker fest. Realistically, both the intent and the actual rules are somewhat ambiguous. I think you'd just want to confirm with a TO or opponent before committing to the list.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

If this were true Deep strike itself would not work...

It overrides this by being a form of Moving On From Reserves.

Got a rules quote that says it overrides it?

I have not found one.

 Charistoph wrote:
The Scouts specific to the Formation have the ability to provide no Scatter to the Vanguard. The Vanguard use that ability to not Scatter. It is not just any Scouts, but the specific Scouts to that same Formation.

Well, yes - but it's an ability of the Formation Vanguards, not the Scouts. Though I agree this might be an unintentional thing. The Scouts had to steal empty Drop Pods in order to help here - maybe the writer didn't even remember that was possible?

DeathReaper wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

If this were true Deep strike itself would not work...

It overrides this by being a form of Moving On From Reserves.

Got a rules quote that says it overrides it?

I have not found one.

Review the first paragraph of Deep Strike and Arriving by Deep Strike. How does it define Deep Strike Reserves? What is the first step to Arrive by Deep Strike?

Spetulhu wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The Scouts specific to the Formation have the ability to provide no Scatter to the Vanguard. The Vanguard use that ability to not Scatter. It is not just any Scouts, but the specific Scouts to that same Formation.

Well, yes - but it's an ability of the Formation Vanguards, not the Scouts. Though I agree this might be an unintentional thing. The Scouts had to steal empty Drop Pods in order to help here - maybe the writer didn't even remember that was possible?

Not quite. They have to be Scouts of THAT Formation, no other Scouts would do. It is an ability the Vanguard use, but the Scouts provide it.

Not that the method of Arrival From Reserves really matters. Sometimes Scouts come in via Outflank (not often, really, Infiltrate is usually better) and can take their own Dedicated Transport to zip along with.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The Scouts specific to the Formation have the ability to provide no Scatter to the Vanguard. The Vanguard use that ability to not Scatter. It is not just any Scouts, but the specific Scouts to that same Formation.

Well, yes - but it's an ability of the Formation Vanguards, not the Scouts. Though I agree this might be an unintentional thing. The Scouts had to steal empty Drop Pods in order to help here - maybe the writer didn't even remember that was possible?

Scouts could just as easily deep strike in Land Speeder Storms, and if I recall correctly it would only cost them 5 points more over the cost of a drop pod.

 Charistoph wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

If this were true Deep strike itself would not work...

It overrides this by being a form of Moving On From Reserves.

Got a rules quote that says it overrides it?

I have not found one.

Review the first paragraph of Deep Strike and Arriving by Deep Strike. How does it define Deep Strike Reserves? What is the first step to Arrive by Deep Strike?

Spetulhu wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The Scouts specific to the Formation have the ability to provide no Scatter to the Vanguard. The Vanguard use that ability to not Scatter. It is not just any Scouts, but the specific Scouts to that same Formation.

Well, yes - but it's an ability of the Formation Vanguards, not the Scouts. Though I agree this might be an unintentional thing. The Scouts had to steal empty Drop Pods in order to help here - maybe the writer didn't even remember that was possible?

Not quite. They have to be Scouts of THAT Formation, no other Scouts would do. It is an ability the Vanguard use, but the Scouts provide it.

Not that the method of Arrival From Reserves really matters. Sometimes Scouts come in via Outflank (not often, really, Infiltrate is usually better) and can take their own Dedicated Transport to zip along with.

The Scouts don't provide the rule to the Veterans... the Formation does.

 Kriswall wrote:
The Scouts don't provide the rule to the Veterans... the Formation does.

Not exactly what I said. Without those Scouts, the ability is not available to be used. Mayhaps the phrase should have been "the Scouts provide access to use the ability".

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
The Scouts don't provide the rule to the Veterans... the Formation does.

Not exactly what I said. Without those Scouts, the ability is not available to be used. Mayhaps the phrase should have been "the Scouts provide assess to use the ability".

The Scouts don't provide access to the ability either. I see what you're trying to get at, though. The Formation provides access to the rule. The rule says the Veterans can do thing A and then might also be able to do thing B. The Veterans invoke the rule. The placement of the Veterans, in relation to the position of the Scouts impacts the results of the rule. At no point are the Scouts providing the Veterans with a rule. Also, at no point are the Scouts invoking the rule. The player never says "these Scouts are making use of the '...On Target' rule". The Veterans are subject to '...On Target' even if there aren't any Scouts on the board. The presence of Scouts merely modifies the outcome of the rule for the Veterans.

So ultimately, the question is, is being a condition of using the ability equal to granting the ability?

 Charistoph wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
If the raven guard formation rule was required to be used at the start of the turn then rules pertaining to that might be relevant.

It however does not have that stipulation in it at all.

Aside from Gate of Infinity-type situations, can you identify any Deep Strike Arrivals available to Codex Marines that are not tied to the Start of the Turn?

Interestingly enough, ...On Target still works with Gate of Infinity. There is no stipulation of Deep Strike Reserves.

Deep strike itself is a rule that must be used at the start of the turn, but the unit deep striking isnt on the table at the start of the turn, so can they use deep strike or not?

The deep striking unit is the only one using any rules, the on target rule is used by them not the scouts, hence why the scouts being on the table or not at the start of turn is completely irrelevant.


One could make the argument that the on target rule is completely superfluous because it cannot work at all because the vanguard vets will never ever be on the table at the start of turn, but that's a broken rules argument and obviously not what was intended. That also assumes that its an ability which *must* be used at the start of the turn, rather then may be used when a vet squad arrives from DS

Kriswall wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
The Scouts don't provide the rule to the Veterans... the Formation does.

Not exactly what I said. Without those Scouts, the ability is not available to be used. Mayhaps the phrase should have been "the Scouts provide assess to use the ability".

The Scouts don't provide access to the ability either. I see what you're trying to get at, though. The Formation provides access to the rule. The rule says the Veterans can do thing A and then might also be able to do thing B. The Veterans invoke the rule. The placement of the Veterans, in relation to the position of the Scouts impacts the results of the rule. At no point are the Scouts providing the Veterans with a rule. Also, at no point are the Scouts invoking the rule. The player never says "these Scouts are making use of the '...On Target' rule". The Veterans are subject to '...On Target' even if there aren't any Scouts on the board. The presence of Scouts merely modifies the outcome of the rule for the Veterans.

Not what I said. I did not say "access the rule", I said "access to use the rule". If those specific Scouts are not there, the Vanguard cannot use this aspect of the rule.

In other words:

jokerkd wrote:So ultimately, the question is, is being a condition of using the ability equal to granting the ability

easysauce wrote:Deep strike itself is a rule that must be used at the start of the turn, but the unit deep striking isnt on the table at the start of the turn, so can they use deep strike or not?

The deep striking unit is the only one using any rules, the on target rule is used by them not the scouts, hence why the scouts being on the table or not at the start of turn is completely irrelevant.

Again, when not used with rules like Gate of Infinity or Veil of Darkness, Deep Strike is a form of Moving On From Reserves, which is what this restriction is associated with. It explains this in its own rules.

In cases like Gate of Infinity or Veil of Darkness, though, it is not at the Start of the Turn nor Arriving From or Moving On From Reserves, so unaffected by such restrictions.

 Charistoph wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
The Vets are definitely using the rule in that they are the ones who are not scattering due to the rule.

But the Scouts in the Formation provide that ability for the Vanguard to use. No other unit can. It is in providing that ability that they are forbidden to provide if they Arrived From Reserves in that same Turn.

Really, it is the only thing that could go wrong with the OP's situation. As many have pointed out, it is not an interpretation that many will agree with.

But the one using the SR are the veterans. And isnt the limitation in the usage of SR ?

nekooni wrote:
But the one using the SR are the veterans. And isnt the limitation in the usage of SR ?

Indeed, but from one perspective, they are using their position and the rule to provide the ability to the Vanguard.

 Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:
But the one using the SR are the veterans. And isnt the limitation in the usage of SR ?

Indeed, but from one perspective, they are using their position and the rule to provide the ability to the Vanguard.

Similar to how an assaulted unit provides the charging unit with the ability to charge? Or a unit being shot provides the ability to reroll the to hit when missed? Bad examples, but the idea seems really off

nekooni wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
The Vets are definitely using the rule in that they are the ones who are not scattering due to the rule.

But the Scouts in the Formation provide that ability for the Vanguard to use. No other unit can. It is in providing that ability that they are forbidden to provide if they Arrived From Reserves in that same Turn.

Really, it is the only thing that could go wrong with the OP's situation. As many have pointed out, it is not an interpretation that many will agree with.

But the one using the SR are the veterans. And isnt the limitation in the usage of SR ?

I don't really understand his angle either. It is sloppy rule writing, but what happened is how the rules work in this case.

I believe the intent was that the scouts would actually scout, Veterans would later deep strike nearby. Beer and pretzel.

 General Kroll wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The Scouts had to steal empty Drop Pods in order to help here - maybe the writer didn't even remember that was possible?

Scouts could just as easily deep strike in Land Speeder Storms, and if I recall correctly it would only cost them 5 points more over the cost of a drop pod.

And five man transport capacity plus the chance to mishap. These were 2 10 man squads in two pods, combat squadding to give the vets several possible DS points to fulfill the distance requirement for avoiding scatter (and reach more potential assault targets ofc). So much better than speeders and cheaper too!

Spetulhu wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The Scouts had to steal empty Drop Pods in order to help here - maybe the writer didn't even remember that was possible?

Scouts could just as easily deep strike in Land Speeder Storms, and if I recall correctly it would only cost them 5 points more over the cost of a drop pod.

And five man transport capacity plus the chance to mishap. These were 2 10 man squads in two pods, combat squadding to give the vets several possible DS points to fulfill the distance requirement for avoiding scatter (and reach more potential assault targets ofc). So much better than speeders and cheaper too!

True point. But at a push, it's doable. Plus I love speeder storms!

"I believe the intent was that the scouts would actually scout, Veterans would later deep strike nearby. Beer and pretzel."

This.


The thing is for me that this is a broken combination beyond any broken combination I have ever seen.

Consider: They can reroll deployment, and first turn. They can arrive from reserves first turn on a 4+ which they can ignore. They can arrive without deviation and charge first turn.

It's nuts.

nekooni wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:
But the one using the SR are the veterans. And isnt the limitation in the usage of SR ?

Indeed, but from one perspective, they are using their position and the rule to provide the ability to the Vanguard.

Similar to how an assaulted unit provides the charging unit with the ability to charge? Or a unit being shot provides the ability to reroll the to hit when missed? Bad examples, but the idea seems really off

No, closer to Skyhammer Annihilation Force's Leave No Survivors is dependent on Suppressing Fusillade to be able to work. It relies on other units of the Formation actions to do something. In this case, the Formation's Scouts just have to be manuevered to be within 19" of each other.

Your examples just rely on a generic target.

Well, this thread is sort of over. You can no longer put the scouts from this formation in a Drop Pod.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Well, this thread is sort of over. You can no longer put the scouts from this formation in a Drop Pod.

Why not? If it is from the same Faction, no problem. "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

And this is still a First Draft. Things may change. A lot of responses appeared on this ruling.

Yeah, you can absolutely put Space Marine Faction Scouts into a Space Marine Faction Drop Pod. Based on the DRAFT answers GW just put up, you won't be able to put Space Marine Faction Scouts in a NON Space Marines Faction Drop Pod. So, no Flesh Tearers Detachment to get the lowest tax Drop Pods available.

Sure, but a relatively go around that has worked very well for us locally is to use the following:

Ravenguard Pinion Demi Company. Utilize Scout Bikers with a Locator Beacon. They have Infiltrate and Scout. They start on the board and can jink to get a 2+ cover save as they are Shrouded on turn 1.

Vanguard Vets from the Formation come down with zero scatter and assault turn 1. It has worked several times for us locally.

Separate detachments are allies. You can be allied with your own faction, as battle brothers, it's on the chart.

DarknessEternal wrote:Separate detachments are allies. You can be allied with your own faction, as battle brothers, it's on the chart.

If it is from the same Faction, you do not address the Matrix. "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Separate detachments are allies. You can be allied with your own faction, as battle brothers, it's on the chart.

If it is from the same Faction, you do not address the Matrix. "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

And yet the Allies Matrix shows the same Faction as being Battle Brothers instead of leaving the space blank as they did last edition

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Separate detachments are allies. You can be allied with your own faction, as battle brothers, it's on the chart.

If it is from the same Faction, you do not address the Matrix. "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

And yet the Allies Matrix shows the same Faction as being Battle Brothers instead of leaving the space blank as they did last edition

Supplements, man, Supplements.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Separate detachments are allies. You can be allied with your own faction, as battle brothers, it's on the chart.

If it is from the same Faction, you do not address the Matrix. "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

And yet the Allies Matrix shows the same Faction as being Battle Brothers instead of leaving the space blank as they did last edition

Supplements, man, Supplements.

Supplements don't change Factions though.