Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 jreilly89 wrote:
So, let me guess, Helbrutes got the same treatment, and people are still gonna complain, right?

Complain about what?

Maulerfiends magma cutters strike at initiative now as well, does that make a huge difference? I'm not sure if that's a big deal, I know they're fairly commonly seen in chaos marine armies.

gungo wrote:

Anon052 wrote:
And the hellbrutes got buffed. So the Deff Dreads are the only "Dreadnaughts " that didn't get buffed. Poor orks.

Well technically this isn't the final faq so GW still has time to see the folly of thier ways.

Which would be great, and reasonable, and well deserved... but won't happen. Though all logic and "common sense" would imply they should get the same buff as Dreadnought it won't happen. Because they aren't a Dreadnought. They may function very similarly to, or exactly like, a Dreadnought but they still aren't one. So an errata to change the profile of the Deff Dread wouldn't happen. Which, in all honesty, is the exact reason I'm legitimately surprised the Helbrute did get the profile change, since GW went out of their way to rename it and say "no, it's not a Chaos Dreadnought - it's different than that somehow!".

But you know what? I would love to be wrong.

I think this DOES prove that, design-wise atleast, the Helbrute is actually just a chaos dreadnaught, while the Deff Dread and the Killa Kans are considered to be something different.

Baffled that the BaleFLAMER isn't a flamer weapon.

+2 attacks to Helbrutes (daemonkin AND CSM) AND Karn can hit invisibility on 2+?

GW threw us a bone?

OMG

 Swampmist wrote:
I think this DOES prove that, design-wise atleast, the Helbrute is actually just a chaos dreadnaught, while the Deff Dread and the Killa Kans are considered to be something different.

Hold on, I thought deff dreads usually go to war with a base of 4 attacks (swap a gun for extra klaw).
So they are actually more like each other now, rather than proven to be "something different", right?

Ofcourse, if you count the arms, I guess deff dreads are "base 2" attacks just ike pre faq ´noughts.

 Fayric wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
I think this DOES prove that, design-wise atleast, the Helbrute is actually just a chaos dreadnaught, while the Deff Dread and the Killa Kans are considered to be something different.

Hold on, I thought deff dreads usually go to war with a base of 4 attacks (swap a gun for extra klaw).
So they are actually more like each other now, rather than proven to be "something different", right?

Kind of? The basic loadout is 3 attacks, not four like the dreads, and over-all the Deff Dread actually works slightly differently (more arms, less options.) IDK, but it seems to me that the Deff Dread is NOT meant to simply be "The ork Dreadnaught," anymore than the Wraithlord is "The Eldar Dreadnaught." They can, and usually do, fill the same role but they are designed to be different. However, the Helbrute is LITERALLY just the CSM dreadnaught, and is considered as such from a game design stand-point, so we see it get the +2 attacks.

To be fair even if deff dreads gain an extra atk through errata they would still be a bad unit. Survivability and movement not extra atks are the problem. It's not like a deff dread could even compete with like the 13 atks murderfang gets.

I'd be happy with ere we go on deff dreads and stikkbomb flingas for a 5+ invul on first pen/glance a turn and +1 atk.

I would like Orks to find a way to deep strike their Kans. It's not out of character for them to just drop them out of the sky anyway... Or lifta-droppa them over the battlefield.

I don't see any reason for Orks to cry about not getting extra attacks on a Deff Dread. It wouldn't solve any problems so there's no point.

With extra CC arms Ork Deffdreads have 6 attack plus the 1 charge attack. How many do you want? They are fine already

Warhams-77 wrote:
With extra CC arms Ork Deffdreads have 6 attack plus the 1 charge attack. How many do you want? They are fine already

13 like murderfang
No seriously how do you get 6 base? It's 3 base and +2 with replacing your other two weapons with klaws. So 5 max and +1 on charge.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
I would like Orks to find a way to deep strike their Kans. It's not out of character for them to just drop them out of the sky anyway... Or lifta-droppa them over the battlefield.

There is one formation that can do it however what Orks really need are rok (drop pods) and tellyporta (teleport machines). Both heavily featured in fluff and books and niether with any in game representation.

No seriously how do you get 6 base? It's 3 base and +2 with replacing your other two weapons with klaws. So 5 max and +1 on charge.

No. it's 3+1+1+1 for 6+1 for charging. You forgot one the second Klaw.

the_scotsman wrote:
Maulerfiends magma cutters strike at initiative now as well, does that make a huge difference? I'm not sure if that's a big deal, I know they're fairly commonly seen in chaos marine armies.

Look again. The FAQ only changes the first two sentences (getting attacks against units rather than models). The FAQ doesn't mention the third sentence (the one that mentions that it's at initiative step 1), nor the profile.

 Swampmist wrote:
Kind of? The basic loadout is 3 attacks, not four like the dreads, and over-all the Deff Dread actually works slightly differently (more arms, less options.) IDK, but it seems to me that the Deff Dread is NOT meant to simply be "The ork Dreadnaught," anymore than the Wraithlord is "The Eldar Dreadnaught." They can, and usually do, fill the same role but they are designed to be different. However, the Helbrute is LITERALLY just the CSM dreadnaught, and is considered as such from a game design stand-point, so we see it get the +2 attacks.

Yeah 3 attacks. Since basic loadout is 2 arms it's more like 2+1 for having two weapons. It's bit odd for marine dreadnoughts to be better in CC than ork dread(and better at shooting to boot).

Though in the grand scale of things useless. You don't use dreadnoughts except with games purely for fun with your friends and there you can get extra attacks anyway.

Actually outside tournaments don't think it should be too hard to get those anyway. Opponents are likely happy if it means you'll waste points on those overpriced piece of junks +2 attack for dreads and killa kans ain't bad idea to give to your opponent if it means he'll take useless junk to his army

Well, with this increase in my Helbrute's attacks I can at least think about fielding him now. Probably still won't in tournaments, but you never know.

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah 3 attacks. Since basic loadout is 2 arms it's more like 2+1 for having two weapons

Nope. 3 base, +1 for having 2 close combat weapons stock, so 4 attacks with no upgrades, 5 on the charge.

It's exactly the same as choppa boys.

2 base, +1 for stock 2 close combat weapons for 3 attacks stock, 4 on the charge. The BRB even uses choppa boyz as an example of this.

Add 2 more arms to the dread and it's 6 attacks, 7 on the charge.

 JimOnMars wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah 3 attacks. Since basic loadout is 2 arms it's more like 2+1 for having two weapons

Nope. 3 base, +1 for having 2 close combat weapons stock, so 4 attacks with no upgrades, 5 on the charge.

Okay so still just equal in CC to 1 handed SM dred and worse shooting. Still odd for ork.

I like the ruling that Kharn can hit invisible units on a 2+. That'll spawn a bunch more 1d4chan memes I think...

Hey, when you are crazy and swinging your axe wildly, you are bound to hit something.

Khorne cares not for such magic trickery. Prepare to die.

 Xca|iber wrote:
I like the ruling that Kharn can hit invisible units on a 2+. That'll spawn a bunch more 1d4chan memes I think...

That Khârn, such a kidder!

tneva82 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah 3 attacks. Since basic loadout is 2 arms it's more like 2+1 for having two weapons

Nope. 3 base, +1 for having 2 close combat weapons stock, so 4 attacks with no upgrades, 5 on the charge.

Okay so still just equal in CC to 1 handed SM dred and worse shooting. Still odd for ork.

Presumably that's why they didn't buff it. Our stock dreads always get 4 attacks minimum, even though we have to use two arms to do it.

Fair enough for me, as we can always buy two more, and s10 AP2 at I2 for 10 pts each is a bargain.

 JimOnMars wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah 3 attacks. Since basic loadout is 2 arms it's more like 2+1 for having two weapons

Nope. 3 base, +1 for having 2 close combat weapons stock, so 4 attacks with no upgrades, 5 on the charge.

Okay so still just equal in CC to 1 handed SM dred and worse shooting. Still odd for ork.

Presumably that's why they didn't buff it. Our stock dreads always get 4 attacks minimum, even though we have to use two arms to do it.

Fair enough for me, as we can always buy two more, and s10 AP2 at I2 for 10 pts each is a bargain.

Still odd for base ork dreadnought to be equal to marine dreadnought that has 1 arm less. So ork dredd with one klaw is actually WORSE in CC than marine equilavent which feels odd.

And yet another nerf for orks. Ork dreadnoughts are worse at shooting than marine dreadnoughts but at least we USED to be better in CC(useless as that advantage was in 7th ed). Now that too is no longer true...

I love the subtle Maulerfiend buff; Changing the Magma Cutters from 'same target' to 'same unit' does change things a lot. Not that you would've used them against MEQ's or TEQ's, but still - actual 3+2 attacks rather than '3+2 on the same target'-attacks makes them quite strong - 1 wound models aren't the bane of the Maulerfiend anymore.
It still auto-hits & hits at Init 1 step, but.. wow. That's actually good news.

The Helbrute buff is deserved; the rage still makes them unpredictable but maybe they become quite useful in the 'mayhem pack'-formation. Distraction-Brutes awaaayy!

And Khârn.. did the word 'always' change overnight? He always hits on 2+. But still, clarification for the Rule-lawyers is good - 'always'.

tneva82 wrote:
Still odd for base ork dreadnought to be equal to marine dreadnought that has 1 arm less. So ork dredd with one klaw is actually WORSE in CC than marine equilavent which feels odd.

And yet another nerf for orks. Ork dreadnoughts are worse at shooting than marine dreadnoughts but at least we USED to be better in CC(useless as that advantage was in 7th ed). Now that too is no longer true...

I disagree. An Ork dreadnought with 1 klaw is not a legal model in 40k. Saying "our illegal model isn't as good as your legal model" is pretty pointless.

I could say "my armless choppa boy is worse than a spore mine", but that would also be pointless.

The stock deff dred has 4 attacks (5 on charge.) It's 80 points. You can get 2 more attacks, if you want. How the unit is modeled and how the fluff is written doesn't change how effective it is on the tabletop. It's has the same attacks as a dreadnaught. Don't worry about the "1-arm" vs "2-arm" as it doesn't affect the rules at all.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Xca|iber wrote:
I like the ruling that Kharn can hit invisible units on a 2+. That'll spawn a bunch more 1d4chan memes I think...

That Khârn, such a kidder!

Kharn can smell fear.

It smells like urine.

Another week. Down to GK, Necrons, Guard, Nids, and Daemons. I wonder if we'll get any more double releases to speed up the process or if they have a timetable in mind.

People really think ork dreads are a "deal"? If they were such a "deal" they would be used more or at all. Look I love ork dreads, I run the formation with 9 killa kans 3 dreads and 2 gorkanauts all the time. I have never once won with it. I had Bjorn and murder fang kill literally everything there but the 2 gorkanauts. Why? Because initiative 2 is CRIPPLING in a dread v dread or MC fight. Want to make it fair? Give them I4 on the charge AT LEAST.