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Sure.

After they give me the following.

CSM update
CSM supplements that are NOT the generic spiky guys or the warband no one ever heard of until now.
Tyranid update
A unicorn.
Unicorn insurance. (You know, in case something happens to the unicorn.)

Preferably all at least a year before a new edition.

I don't want this to be another sad case of CSM 4th ed - where we got an updated book, were somewhat acceptable for all of two months and then got shafted as 5th came out and beat the crap out of us with tweaks to the core rules that made our new book turn into gak.

I don't I think if they went to like an X-wing route with this death from the skies it will do real well. Just adding more rules on top of more rules will just make the game unnecessary long (even though it is already pretty long as is).

And what is up with all these side games they keep coming up with?

First there is so much more to DftS than the dog fight phase.

I have the book and used it in a game and did not use the dog fight phase. Opponents had no flyers , so they had a -1 to reserve rolls and I had +1 or -1.

That let me bring my reserves in on a 2+ and opponents on a 4+. And this was just using 1 flyer. Also the extra turning if very helpful for flyers to stay on the table and get behind enemy vehicles.

Im looking forward to playing a game with 2 flyers to try out the wing leader rules, air Detachment and patterns. All of which have nothing to do with the dog fight phase.

People need to stop focusing on the dog fight phase. There is something in DftS for each army with flyer, be it extra turns, reserve rolls manipulation, patterns or wing leaders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also it says in the book it replaces the flyer rules in the brb, so better get used to the rules , if some one has the book and you don't have a choice to use them or not

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
First there is so much more to DftS than the dog fight phase.

I have the book and used it in a game and did not use the dog fight phase. Opponents had no flyers , so they had a -1 to reserve rolls and I had +1 or -1.

That let me bring my reserves in on a 2+ and opponents on a 4+. And this was just using 1 flyer. Also the extra turning if very helpful for flyers to stay on the table and get behind enemy vehicles.

Im looking forward to playing a game with 2 flyers to try out the wing leader rules, air Detachment and patterns. All of which have nothing to do with the dog fight phase.

People need to stop focusing on the dog fight phase. There is something in DftS for each army with flyer, be it extra turns, reserve rolls manipulation, patterns or wing leaders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also it says in the book it replaces the flyer rules in the brb, so better get used to the rules , if some one has the book and you don't have a choice to use them or not

Very true, I still maintain that that extra turn and the attack patterns are game changers and I fully endorse them, what I find funny is that most people wont really notice the dogfighting phase since it can be opted out and also requires both players to have flyers in reserve. I love flyers and even though it's 'more rules on top of a complicated game' it's entirely dependent on list composition as to whether you even get to see the phase, in the same way you can opt out of the psychic phase by not having psykers ... whilst I get to benefit from more options and rules to support my favorite units in the game.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
First there is so much more to DftS than the dog fight phase.

I have the book and used it in a game and did not use the dog fight phase. Opponents had no flyers , so they had a -1 to reserve rolls and I had +1 or -1.

That let me bring my reserves in on a 2+ and opponents on a 4+. And this was just using 1 flyer. Also the extra turning if very helpful for flyers to stay on the table and get behind enemy vehicles.

Im looking forward to playing a game with 2 flyers to try out the wing leader rules, air Detachment and patterns. All of which have nothing to do with the dog fight phase.

People need to stop focusing on the dog fight phase. There is something in DftS for each army with flyer, be it extra turns, reserve rolls manipulation, patterns or wing leaders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also it says in the book it replaces the flyer rules in the brb, so better get used to the rules , if some one has the book and you don't have a choice to use them or not

Spot on.

There's a lot of good stuff in DFTS.

No, I do not intend to ever get this piece of trash. It is a phoned in attempted to increase sales for flyers which are currently not selling because most players realize that a flyer doesn't do enough to justify its cost.

And instead of giving a handful of races useful flyers they instead increased the power level of the IoM flyers and screwed the Xenox (at least the orks)

I do not ever intend to buy this, nor the model that goes along with it.

SemperMortis wrote:
No, I do not intend to ever get this piece of trash. It is a phoned in attempted to increase sales for flyers which are currently not selling because most players realize that a flyer doesn't do enough to justify its cost.

And instead of giving a handful of races useful flyers they instead increased the power level of the IoM flyers and screwed the Xenox (at least the orks)

I do not ever intend to buy this, nor the model that goes along with it.

Jeez man get off the fence

Knights can't really look up too well nor are they good at flying, just falling, so it's a no.

It managed to make the worst flyer in the entire game worst. It made the Razor Shark a Strike Fighter so no Interceptor. Which means it now fires at BS 1 maybe 2 depending on how you rule the FSE formation that gives it +1 BS.

So the single worst flyer in the game is now even worse. -_- Hell no I'm never planning on touching aircraft even to add one to my army.

 Gamgee wrote:
It managed to make the worst flyer in the entire game worst. It made the Razor Shark a Strike Fighter so no Interceptor. Which means it now fires at BS 1 maybe 2 depending on how you rule the FSE formation that gives it +1 BS.

So the single worst flyer in the game is now even worse. -_- Hell no I'm never planning on touching aircraft even to add one to my army.

I disagree. The Sun Shark is quite worse than the Razorshark (and has been since 7th ed.). Tau is already the army with widest access to Skyfire, so we should use our GW aircraft in different roles. BS4 Razorshark is awesome vs ground targets, not even requiring much of markerlight support (specially in attack pattern with Ignores Cover); also it has Agility of 3, greater than Sun Shark's 2.

It's still inferior to other aircraft, but that's a problem with its statline; DftS only removed Skyfire from it.
I'd wait for IA14 and Remoras getting Skyfire (as Barracuda went OOP and we don't know if it'll ever come back)

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:


Also it says in the book it replaces the flyer rules in the brb, so better get used to the rules , if some one has the book and you don't have a choice to use them or not

And people wonder why the Hobby is actually suffering with attitudes like that.

I view this supplement as I did Escalation and Stronghold Assault - sure, it's 'legal'. Sure, it replaces some of the rules in the brb, according to itself. But at the same time if you plan on using it you should probably let your opponent know in advance and be prepared to pass your book over on a regular basis so they can check things. Furthermore, be prepared to allow your opponent to take back some dice rolls and moves, largely because they will not necessarily be as knowledgeable about the DftS add-ons as you will. Don't expect to go into random pick up games with it. The fact it not only introduces a whole new phase which can remove models not even deployed, messes with basics like Cover and Reserves rolls just because you have Unit X when your opponent doesn't and gets bonus rules because you played a number game with the units...well, that's going to cause some consternation.

So it's either you be the bigger player, give them advance notice, let them learn on the fly and try not to abuse the fact you get bonuses for X, Y and Z when they have no clue about that...or you buy them a copy of the book.

Or you accept that there is a universal constant to any game.

The book you bought may say the rules are official and replace X rules.

But there's not a single book you can buy that says anyone must play a game against you.

My advice? Lose that sort of attitude. Try not to skip down the path of becoming TFG.

And realise that if your local group doesn't like those particular rules or formation? They won't use them. Accept that if tournament committees find a set of rules to be too powerful in one way or the other? That they can either exclude them altogether or modify them as they see fit.

Oh sure, you can use them at GW run events and in GW stores if you like.

But your opponents can also field Unbound Armies by the same respect and cheese it up just as much.

No no no, you see, you have to play with this new 70 dollar paperweight because if you decline, you're a bad person. Because reasons.

 Crablezworth wrote:
No no no, you see, you have to play with this new 70 dollar paperweight because if you decline, you're a bad person. Because reasons.

Because your opponent was the only one dumb enough to buy the £45 moneygrab that will likely be invalidated soon anyway.

This awful book, along with the new Marine Psi Powers, has put quite a serious dent in my thinking that GW is back on right track

The rules are more or less just 'win more' and the attack patterns, wings and dogfight nonsense appears to have been ripped from some WW2 historic aircombat game, and losing models before they even hit the table, utter gak design for a tabletop game

I suspect the intention was to make a 'flyer' game but they had quick look at X-Wing and thought 'thats a fight we can't win' and squirted this rubbish out

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:


Also it says in the book it replaces the flyer rules in the brb, so better get used to the rules , if some one has the book and you don't have a choice to use them or not

And people wonder why the Hobby is actually suffering with attitudes like that.

I view this supplement as I did Escalation and Stronghold Assault - sure, it's 'legal'. Sure, it replaces some of the rules in the brb, according to itself. But at the same time if you plan on using it you should probably let your opponent know in advance and be prepared to pass your book over on a regular basis so they can check things. Furthermore, be prepared to allow your opponent to take back some dice rolls and moves, largely because they will not necessarily be as knowledgeable about the DftS add-ons as you will. Don't expect to go into random pick up games with it. The fact it not only introduces a whole new phase which can remove models not even deployed, messes with basics like Cover and Reserves rolls just because you have Unit X when your opponent doesn't and gets bonus rules because you played a number game with the units...well, that's going to cause some consternation.

So it's either you be the bigger player, give them advance notice, let them learn on the fly and try not to abuse the fact you get bonuses for X, Y and Z when they have no clue about that...or you buy them a copy of the book.

Or you accept that there is a universal constant to any game.

The book you bought may say the rules are official and replace X rules.

But there's not a single book you can buy that says anyone must play a game against you.

My advice? Lose that sort of attitude. Try not to skip down the path of becoming TFG.

And realise that if your local group doesn't like those particular rules or formation? They won't use them. Accept that if tournament committees find a set of rules to be too powerful in one way or the other? That they can either exclude them altogether or modify them as they see fit.

Oh sure, you can use them at GW run events and in GW stores if you like.

But your opponents can also field Unbound Armies by the same respect and cheese it up just as much.

Exalted. Could not have said it better myself.

It's a game. There's no need to make your opponent have a bad time. For me it's much more fun if my opponent is having fun.

When your average 2K game takes more than 2 hours the last thing you should add is another phase.

40k is drowning in rules bloat as it is this won't help.

hobojebus wrote:
When your average 2K game takes more than 2 hours the last thing you should add is another phase.

40k is drowning in rules bloat as it is this won't help.

500 point games are often 2 hour affairs. Its rediculous.

 Selym wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
No no no, you see, you have to play with this new 70 dollar paperweight because if you decline, you're a bad person. Because reasons.

Because your opponent was the only one dumb enough to buy the £45 moneygrab that will likely be invalidated soon anyway.

I bought this, and the Stronghold Assault before that. Both are nice books, they both have updated rules, and both add models and units useful to certain armies I use.
But, they are not worth the money unless you go whole-hog, and your group has no objection to it.

DftS is a good book if you like particular fliers, and wanted to start that as an additional or allied army. You don't have to buy the codex just to get the flier formation. It is one way to get around a lack of AA on your codex. Not a good way, but it's an option.

Hell no. I'll buy the next BRB when the new edition drops, but I'm not paying for these rules twice. Especially since the drake nerf, I rarely bother with flyers.

Well maybe if this game picks up more traction new flyers will come out maybe?????

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:


Also it says in the book it replaces the flyer rules in the brb, so better get used to the rules , if some one has the book and you don't have a choice to use them or not

And people wonder why the Hobby is actually suffering with attitudes like that.

I view this supplement as I did Escalation and Stronghold Assault - sure, it's 'legal'. Sure, it replaces some of the rules in the brb, according to itself. But at the same time if you plan on using it you should probably let your opponent know in advance and be prepared to pass your book over on a regular basis so they can check things. Furthermore, be prepared to allow your opponent to take back some dice rolls and moves, largely because they will not necessarily be as knowledgeable about the DftS add-ons as you will. Don't expect to go into random pick up games with it. The fact it not only introduces a whole new phase which can remove models not even deployed, messes with basics like Cover and Reserves rolls just because you have Unit X when your opponent doesn't and gets bonus rules because you played a number game with the units...well, that's going to cause some consternation.

So it's either you be the bigger player, give them advance notice, let them learn on the fly and try not to abuse the fact you get bonuses for X, Y and Z when they have no clue about that...or you buy them a copy of the book.

Or you accept that there is a universal constant to any game.

The book you bought may say the rules are official and replace X rules.

But there's not a single book you can buy that says anyone must play a game against you.

My advice? Lose that sort of attitude. Try not to skip down the path of becoming TFG.

And realise that if your local group doesn't like those particular rules or formation? They won't use them. Accept that if tournament committees find a set of rules to be too powerful in one way or the other? That they can either exclude them altogether or modify them as they see fit.

Oh sure, you can use them at GW run events and in GW stores if you like.

But your opponents can also field Unbound Armies by the same respect and cheese it up just as much.

What's the difference between DftS and Angles of death?

So I should expect they let me know in advance they will be using angels of death. I play orks and only orks. So I should know every other army codex and supplement ? Can't I say the same thing, sorry don't know your supplement rules I dont want to play vs a book I don't know. So if I play vs a supplement I don't own I get to take back dice rolls and moves ?

Angles of Death let's you swap units, ignore los, ignore cover and move terrian, all of which is messing with basics of the game.

That's like saying sorry I didn't buy that book so I shouldnt be forced to play vs it.

Sounds more like your saying " that book gives your army more of an advantage than it does for mine, so I don't want to use it"

 Selym wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
When your average 2K game takes more than 2 hours the last thing you should add is another phase.

40k is drowning in rules bloat as it is this won't help.

500 point games are often 2 hour affairs. Its rediculous.

What are you playing Orks vs Nids horde armies?! I've never had a 500 Pt game last 2 hours. Heck, my local group can get 3 1500-2000 point games in a piece in 5 hours on a regular basis.


That said, to the OP: I don't know if I'll get it or not, I use mostly FW flyers when I do use them and so far I cant see it effecting my use of flyers much but I could be wrong.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Selym wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
When your average 2K game takes more than 2 hours the last thing you should add is another phase.

40k is drowning in rules bloat as it is this won't help.

500 point games are often 2 hour affairs. Its rediculous.

What are you playing Orks vs Nids horde armies?! I've never had a 500 Pt game last 2 hours. Heck, my local group can get 3 1500-2000 point games in a piece in 5 hours on a regular basis.


That said, to the OP: I don't know if I'll get it or not, I use mostly FW flyers when I do use them and so far I cant see it effecting my use of flyers much but I could be wrong.

I have never seen a 40k game take less than that. Maybe it's because I also include setup, and it does not help that half my opponents are dyslexic (I have two opponents), but I have not been able to complete a 40k game of over 1k points in over two years.

 The_Lion wrote:
Well maybe if this game picks up more traction new flyers will come out maybe?????

Yes, as anther £45 supplement...

GW has afaik never done sequels in such a manner.

 Selym wrote:

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Selym wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
When your average 2K game takes more than 2 hours the last thing you should add is another phase.

40k is drowning in rules bloat as it is this won't help.

500 point games are often 2 hour affairs. Its rediculous.

What are you playing Orks vs Nids horde armies?! I've never had a 500 Pt game last 2 hours. Heck, my local group can get 3 1500-2000 point games in a piece in 5 hours on a regular basis.


That said, to the OP: I don't know if I'll get it or not, I use mostly FW flyers when I do use them and so far I cant see it effecting my use of flyers much but I could be wrong.

I have never seen a 40k game take less than that. Maybe it's because I also include setup, and it does not help that half my opponents are dyslexic (I have two opponents), but I have not been able to complete a 40k game of over 1k points in over two years.

That sounds pretty excessive time wise mate. Can I ask what's taking so long in your games. I've been focusing on smaller games lately 600-1000 points, and we've been managing to get in two games some nights. Obviously everyone is different, but I've found that as I've got a better grasp of the rules over time, the speed of the game has increased.

The games get held up by having to search through multiple books every damn phase...
In addition to constantly having to pick apart GW's terrible rules writing constantly, it's usually pretty damn obvious who's going to win by the end of turn 1, and then both players lose interest and just slowly push pieces around until we get sufficiently annoyed and wander off to watch a movie.

But there's so much arguing about rules that when the game isn't that predictable, we spend more time arguing over GW's terrible writing than actually playing.

40k is unfun rn...

 Selym wrote:
The games get held up by having to search through multiple books every damn phase...
In addition to constantly having to pick apart GW's terrible rules writing constantly, it's usually pretty damn obvious who's going to win by the end of turn 1, and then both players lose interest and just slowly push pieces around until we get sufficiently annoyed and wander off to watch a movie.

But there's so much arguing about rules that when the game isn't that predictable, we spend more time arguing over GW's terrible writing than actually playing.

40k is unfun rn...

I guess ymmv, but I've been having a great time lately. Any game is what you make of it. If you're constantly arguing over rules, surely it's in your interests to house rule the things that are causing friction? Sure there are lots of ambiguous things in the rules, but as long people aren't rigid and being TFGs it's easy to get round them and resolve things.

But like I said, ymmv, if your aim is to have a fun time, maybe it's time to try and work out where all the conflict is arising and solve it yourself, because who knows if or when GW will solve it for you.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

What's the difference between DftS and Angles of death?

So I should expect they let me know in advance they will be using angels of death. I play orks and only orks. So I should know every other army codex and supplement ? Can't I say the same thing, sorry don't know your supplement rules I dont want to play vs a book I don't know. So if I play vs a supplement I don't own I get to take back dice rolls and moves ?

Angles of Death let's you swap units, ignore los, ignore cover and move terrian, all of which is messing with basics of the game.

That's like saying sorry I didn't buy that book so I shouldnt be forced to play vs it.

Sounds more like your saying " that book gives your army more of an advantage than it does for mine, so I don't want to use it"

The difference between DftS and Angels of Death is simple.

AoD is a supplement. Essentially it's an add on for a codex. It does not modify the core game rules in the BRB. It does not modify the rules for your units that you may well be familiar with from your own codex. It does not introduce an entirely new phase to the game.

DftS adds a whole new phase. It forcibly changes the rules on every listed flyer in 40k - as I have stated in an example earlier...imagine you show up for a game. And you brought Flyer X as your anti-air defense. Sure, Flyer X has a few bombs but you tend to use it as anti-air. It keeps you safe from your opponents Flyer Ys, which are just plain nasty.

Your opponent shows up, with a supplement that you don't have and tells you 'these rules override all other rules.' He then informs you that Flyer X is now a bomber so doesn't have Skyfire. Meanwhile his Flyer Ys are fighters so get bonuses and have skyfire. Suddenly you are at a huge disadvantage. You suddenly can only hit his Flyers on 6s. Meanwhile he can hit you normally. In addition he tells you there's this new phase. You roll dice. Your Flyer X is destroyed before you even get to bring it in. His Flyer Ys can conveniently attack your army. Your only anti-air defense was destroyed before you even got to do anything with it.

Or imagine you play an army that is heavily reliant on Cover...or Reserves. You know your opponent brings flyers...but these aren't that big a problem as you tend to minimalise what units he can harm by keeping them deployed safely or bringing them on when they are needed in the right spot. But along comes your opponent with DftS who tells you one of the following.

Oh, I'm fielding this formation so these flyers ignore your cover. Blat blat blat. Oh, I killed the things that provided your army cover. Guess that's it.

or...

Oh, I have Flyer Y. That means you have a -1 penalty to all your reserve rolls and I get a bonus.

You see, DftS not only introduces an entirely new phase that has the potential to kill off units before they're even deployed based on your luck with what is effectively Rock, Paper, Scissors....but it also modifies core rules just for a unit being Type X, Y or Z.

Angels of Death...doesn't do that. Nor does Crimson Slaughter. Nor does Curse of the Wulfen. Nor does Codex Orks. In fact, in any supplement or codex you pretty much have to pay points for the upgrades that ignore cover or interfere with reserve rolls...on top of purchasing the unit itself to use those upgrades. No unit gets it just for being Type X or Type Y. None of the Campaign supplements, army supplements or Codexes modify the rules in the BRB or their opponent's army. And yet DftS states it does.

Ok Ork player. Let's go.

How would you feel if you showed up, your Codex stated that your Trukks were Type X, had points cost Y and had save Z according to the Type X rules in the BRB.

Then I show up with a book you don't have - the reasons for you not having it are irrelevant. It could be you just didn't have the money. It could be you didn't use the particular units mentioned in it so it was no big deal. It could be that perhaps that particular aspect (VEHICLE RACING FROM BELOW EXTREME) wasn't that interesting to you - you know, you looked at it, thought maybe it would be a neat minigame but not for you... - and I tell you that your Trukks changed to Type X.1. Their cost is now Y2. And they lost the rules from the BRB. Oh, and btw I'm bringing this unit and formation, which is Type W and has an advantage against you. AND YOU HAVE TO PLAY AGAINST ME BECAUSE THE BOOK SAYS THESE ARE THE RULES.

Not only have your army's overall tactics been forced to suddenly changed (if you'd known about these changes you wouldn't have brought so many, or perhaps would have brought something else)...but points have potentially changed and the loss of the rules you were familiar with means that these units can no longer fill the role you took them for.

Would you continue that game? I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to. Not only am I being forced to adapt to my units forcibly having their roles and function changed...but my tactics for dealing with Type W vehicles may have to be completely changed, especially if I lost the ability to deal with them as I had before. That would not be a fun game. It's pretty much getting hyped up for a jog in the woods to be told that the woods were filled with spiders....as you showed up in your shorts to go jogging with no anti-spider clothing or anything as you pretty much were not expecting to be told about spiders...ten seconds before the jog started.

Let's put it this way.

AoD is a supplement. You know it might have...new units. Formations. Psychic Powers. Relics. Detachments.

Are any of these, as a core principle alien to you? Well. No. Units are found in codexes. Their types are in the BRB. Formations...are found in the BRB and codexes. Psychic powers...are detailed in the BRB. Detachments as well. The basic principle of each of these additions is not new.

Now, DftS brings an entirely new phase in which YOUR models can be lost based to a random dice roll before you even deploy them.

Do you remember why people hated the 2nd ed Tyranid Table and the 3rd ed Alaitoc Pathfinder chart? They hated them because they damaged units and caused casualties before the unit even did anything. But as hated as they were...they did not destroy the unit outright. This is an entirely new phase that, based on a dice roll...can destroy units outright.

Angles of Death let's you swap units, ignore los, ignore cover and move terrian, all of which is messing with basics of the game.

Psychic powers are covered in the main rulebook. They have to be cast. There are drawbacks to them. They can also be countered. It is also widely agreed that the Geomancy lore is ridiculous and moving terrain is pretty fething stupid. That isn't helping your case much mate.

Ignoring LOS? Well, yes. Barrage weapons and indirect fire weapons are also detailed in the main rulebook. Same with weapons that ignore cover. Swapping units? There's warlord traits that let you redeploy which is functionally similar.

But here's the thing. None of these specifically impose themselves on YOUR army. The Angels of Death supplement does NOT tell you that your Unit X loses a special rule for being what it is. The supplement does not introduce an entirely new phase to the game that your opponent may not be aware of.

But at the end of the day...

You can still cry 'But the book says these are the rules.'

If your opponents don't want to play with them they won't. If your local club doesn't want to play with them? They won't. If the ITC doesn't want to play with them? They won't. You can bleat 'But it;s the rules' all you like.

No one is forcing you to play with them.

Just as no one is forcing them to play with you.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

What's the difference between DftS and Angles of death?

So I should expect they let me know in advance they will be using angels of death. I play orks and only orks. So I should know every other army codex and supplement ? Can't I say the same thing, sorry don't know your supplement rules I dont want to play vs a book I don't know. So if I play vs a supplement I don't own I get to take back dice rolls and moves ?

Angles of Death let's you swap units, ignore los, ignore cover and move terrian, all of which is messing with basics of the game.

That's like saying sorry I didn't buy that book so I shouldnt be forced to play vs it.

Sounds more like your saying " that book gives your army more of an advantage than it does for mine, so I don't want to use it"

The difference between DftS and Angels of Death is simple.

AoD is a supplement. Essentially it's an add on for a codex. It does not modify the core game rules in the BRB. It does not modify the rules for your units that you may well be familiar with from your own codex. It does not introduce an entirely new phase to the game.

DftS adds a whole new phase. It forcibly changes the rules on every listed flyer in 40k - as I have stated in an example earlier...imagine you show up for a game. And you brought Flyer X as your anti-air defense. Sure, Flyer X has a few bombs but you tend to use it as anti-air. It keeps you safe from your opponents Flyer Ys, which are just plain nasty.

Your opponent shows up, with a supplement that you don't have and tells you 'these rules override all other rules.' He then informs you that Flyer X is now a bomber so doesn't have Skyfire. Meanwhile his Flyer Ys are fighters so get bonuses and have skyfire. Suddenly you are at a huge disadvantage. You suddenly can only hit his Flyers on 6s. Meanwhile he can hit you normally. In addition he tells you there's this new phase. You roll dice. Your Flyer X is destroyed before you even get to bring it in. His Flyer Ys can conveniently attack your army. Your only anti-air defense was destroyed before you even got to do anything with it.

Or imagine you play an army that is heavily reliant on Cover...or Reserves. You know your opponent brings flyers...but these aren't that big a problem as you tend to minimalise what units he can harm by keeping them deployed safely or bringing them on when they are needed in the right spot. But along comes your opponent with DftS who tells you one of the following.

Oh, I'm fielding this formation so these flyers ignore your cover. Blat blat blat. Oh, I killed the things that provided your army cover. Guess that's it.

or...

Oh, I have Flyer Y. That means you have a -1 penalty to all your reserve rolls and I get a bonus.

You see, DftS not only introduces an entirely new phase that has the potential to kill off units before they're even deployed based on your luck with what is effectively Rock, Paper, Scissors....but it also modifies core rules just for a unit being Type X, Y or Z.

Angels of Death...doesn't do that. Nor does Crimson Slaughter. Nor does Curse of the Wulfen. Nor does Codex Orks. In fact, in any supplement or codex you pretty much have to pay points for the upgrades that ignore cover or interfere with reserve rolls...on top of purchasing the unit itself to use those upgrades. No unit gets it just for being Type X or Type Y. None of the Campaign supplements, army supplements or Codexes modify the rules in the BRB or their opponent's army. And yet DftS states it does.

Ok Ork player. Let's go.

How would you feel if you showed up, your Codex stated that your Trukks were Type X, had points cost Y and had save Z according to the Type X rules in the BRB.

Then I show up with a book you don't have - the reasons for you not having it are irrelevant. It could be you just didn't have the money. It could be you didn't use the particular units mentioned in it so it was no big deal. It could be that perhaps that particular aspect (VEHICLE RACING FROM BELOW EXTREME) wasn't that interesting to you - you know, you looked at it, thought maybe it would be a neat minigame but not for you... - and I tell you that your Trukks changed to Type X.1. Their cost is now Y2. And they lost the rules from the BRB. Oh, and btw I'm bringing this unit and formation, which is Type W and has an advantage against you. AND YOU HAVE TO PLAY AGAINST ME BECAUSE THE BOOK SAYS THESE ARE THE RULES.

Not only have your army's overall tactics been forced to suddenly changed (if you'd known about these changes you wouldn't have brought so many, or perhaps would have brought something else)...but points have potentially changed and the loss of the rules you were familiar with means that these units can no longer fill the role you took them for.

Would you continue that game? I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to. Not only am I being forced to adapt to my units forcibly having their roles and function changed...but my tactics for dealing with Type W vehicles may have to be completely changed, especially if I lost the ability to deal with them as I had before. That would not be a fun game. It's pretty much getting hyped up for a jog in the woods to be told that the woods were filled with spiders....as you showed up in your shorts to go jogging with no anti-spider clothing or anything as you pretty much were not expecting to be told about spiders...ten seconds before the jog started.

Let's put it this way.

AoD is a supplement. You know it might have...new units. Formations. Psychic Powers. Relics. Detachments.

Are any of these, as a core principle alien to you? Well. No. Units are found in codexes. Their types are in the BRB. Formations...are found in the BRB and codexes. Psychic powers...are detailed in the BRB. Detachments as well. The basic principle of each of these additions is not new.

Now, DftS brings an entirely new phase in which YOUR models can be lost based to a random dice roll before you even deploy them.

Do you remember why people hated the 2nd ed Tyranid Table and the 3rd ed Alaitoc Pathfinder chart? They hated them because they damaged units and caused casualties before the unit even did anything. But as hated as they were...they did not destroy the unit outright. This is an entirely new phase that, based on a dice roll...can destroy units outright.

Angles of Death let's you swap units, ignore los, ignore cover and move terrian, all of which is messing with basics of the game.

Psychic powers are covered in the main rulebook. They have to be cast. There are drawbacks to them. They can also be countered. It is also widely agreed that the Geomancy lore is ridiculous and moving terrain is pretty fething stupid. That isn't helping your case much mate.

Ignoring LOS? Well, yes. Barrage weapons and indirect fire weapons are also detailed in the main rulebook. Same with weapons that ignore cover. Swapping units? There's warlord traits that let you redeploy which is functionally similar.

But here's the thing. None of these specifically impose themselves on YOUR army. The Angels of Death supplement does NOT tell you that your Unit X loses a special rule for being what it is. The supplement does not introduce an entirely new phase to the game that your opponent may not be aware of.

But at the end of the day...

You can still cry 'But the book says these are the rules.'

If your opponents don't want to play with them they won't. If your local club doesn't want to play with them? They won't. If the ITC doesn't want to play with them? They won't. You can bleat 'But it;s the rules' all you like.

No one is forcing you to play with them.

Just as no one is forcing them to play with you.

This is perfect. Worded better than I could. This post is needed in a YMDC thread haha.

 General Kroll wrote:

 Selym wrote:
The games get held up by having to search through multiple books every damn phase...
In addition to constantly having to pick apart GW's terrible rules writing constantly, it's usually pretty damn obvious who's going to win by the end of turn 1, and then both players lose interest and just slowly push pieces around until we get sufficiently annoyed and wander off to watch a movie.

But there's so much arguing about rules that when the game isn't that predictable, we spend more time arguing over GW's terrible writing than actually playing.

40k is unfun rn...

I guess ymmv, but I've been having a great time lately. Any game is what you make of it. If you're constantly arguing over rules, surely it's in your interests to house rule the things that are causing friction? Sure there are lots of ambiguous things in the rules, but as long people aren't rigid and being TFGs it's easy to get round them and resolve things.

But like I said, ymmv, if your aim is to have a fun time, maybe it's time to try and work out where all the conflict is arising and solve it yourself, because who knows if or when GW will solve it for you.

Houserules have been difficult to do. Of the two people I know personally, one hates houserules, and the other doesn't understand GW rules anyway.

When it gets around to other people, there's rarely ever been agreement.

 Selym wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

 Selym wrote:
The games get held up by having to search through multiple books every damn phase...
In addition to constantly having to pick apart GW's terrible rules writing constantly, it's usually pretty damn obvious who's going to win by the end of turn 1, and then both players lose interest and just slowly push pieces around until we get sufficiently annoyed and wander off to watch a movie.

But there's so much arguing about rules that when the game isn't that predictable, we spend more time arguing over GW's terrible writing than actually playing.

40k is unfun rn...

I guess ymmv, but I've been having a great time lately. Any game is what you make of it. If you're constantly arguing over rules, surely it's in your interests to house rule the things that are causing friction? Sure there are lots of ambiguous things in the rules, but as long people aren't rigid and being TFGs it's easy to get round them and resolve things.

But like I said, ymmv, if your aim is to have a fun time, maybe it's time to try and work out where all the conflict is arising and solve it yourself, because who knows if or when GW will solve it for you.

Houserules have been difficult to do. Of the two people I know personally, one hates houserules, and the other doesn't understand GW rules anyway.

When it gets around to other people, there's rarely ever been agreement.

Sounds a right PITA mate,