Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was quite excited (like many another Space Marine player I'm sure) to hear the news that the Angels of Death supplement was being released with all new sorts of things for the Chapters that traditionally didn't get as much attention as the Smurfs and Wolves. I have a rather extensive collection of Salamanders now and I was definitely looking forward to seeing my favorite chapter being fleshed out to become a bit more unique than green smurfs with flamethrowers.

Still, after the supplement coming out and trying my best to put together a tournament worthy force at 2000 points, I simply can't make a decently competitive force using their new Flameblade Strike Force. The benefits from Gladius are just worlds better than anything I can come up with trying to stick to just Salamander stuff. Was anyone else massively disappointed with this supplement as I was? I'm betting some BT and CF people might be at least. The RG and Scars were all ready doing quite well with their CT rules and new formations, then IF I felt got a decent new detachment along with Iron Hands.

I think Salamanders detachment stinks in general. The rules should apply to all units and vehicles, and it felt like the developers simply got lazy and slapped some rules on them without really thinking much in the process. Also, thanks for a new Flamebringer formation that does exactly squat.

I did like Salamander Relics but don't like you can't put more than one on them however...

I don't like how the Iron Hands clearly have the most superior detachment out of the book.

C'mon GW, you could have thrown the BT players a bone here. Even just a simple "Can use Crusader Squads in lieu of Tac squads" would have been a simple fix.

Also, let me add that while I am certainly whining about this I realize that Chaos Marines, DE, BA, Orks, SoB and maybe a few others are in desperate need of an update and I truly do feel for anyone who has any of these armies as their favorite.

So what was your biggest disappointment with this new supplement?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, my mistake...Imshould have posted this in the general 40K discussion

My disappointment was that it was released. I want a damn supplement already, and Imperials didn't need more stuff.

As a Chaos player I think exasperated was the word you were looking for.

I still have my 6th ed. Codex which pretty much needs to be propped up by BL dataslates and Forge World to function on a remotely competitive level...meanwhile not only did you get a newer book than us...you then had it updated and got even more things added in via a supplement. You're entire range has been padded and pet on a religious basis and I'm still here looking at my finecast and/or decade old model range wondering exactly what the point is.

Point of the matter is that the oldest models in the SM range are the Land Raider and Rhino.

Not only do CSM have the same models...we have a Spiky Bit sprue that predates those AND Khorne Berserkers

My disappointment was piling even more totally unnecessary gak on the spoilt child of 40k and then hearing them complain that it wasn't as OP as the piles of stuff they already had.

Take in the fact that the Space Marines, one single faction, now have the same number of decurion detachments as every other faction combined.

That's.

Bonkers.

The design time that went into that book could have released an updated codex for chaos, guard, orks, dark eldar, nids, blood angels, or any of the other vast numbers of factions currently sitting in the dust while GW tries to cram the latest kits down the space marines throats, even when they're nearly busting out of their power armor with the number of options they currently have.

OP: Let's discuss this book!
Replies so far: Don't complain, because you play Space Marines!

Now that's bonkers.

the_scotsman wrote:
My disappointment was piling even more totally unnecessary gak on the spoilt child of 40k and then hearing them complain that it wasn't as OP as the piles of stuff they already had.

Take in the fact that the Space Marines, one single faction, now have the same number of decurion detachments as every other faction combined.

Even as a Space Marine player I have to agree. I'm happy that I now basically have a "Decurion" for any Chapter I'd like, but I'm also sad that other armies are THAT much worse off. CSM/Orks/Nids should be the next priorities for GW, not yet another Marines/Tau/Necron book. I fear that the next major content will feature Necrons and one of the non-vanilla Marines (best case: BA) instead, tbh.

That being said I'm perfectly fine with new Decurions being less powerful than the Gladius. It's over the top, you REALLY shouldn't give anyone even more powerful stuff. I don't want this endless power increase, I want to play with people that field something BESIDES Marines, Eldar, Tau or Necrons and give them a fighting chance without severely gimping my own list.

nekooni wrote:
I fear that the next major content will feature Necrons and one of the non-vanilla Marines (best case: BA) instead, tbh.

Fear? I would love for a Necron supplement. Please and thank you. Every other ridiculous army has one.

As a newer player who doesn't really build for competitive, I kinda like the supplement, as the original codex itself felt rather bland in terms of picking chapter tactics for successor chapters. You didn't really have any formations or unique options that would say that you were a descendant of X chapter or X main chapter other than 2 little bonuses that may or may not help. To be clear, I had no idea some of the other main chapters were defined in supplements until seeing stuff referenced in other books in Battlescribe, so all I could see was the main space marine codex saying "Here's Ultramarines formations and rules stuff, play this, even though we know there are other major chapters."

Getting little fun formation-esque options for using Dreadnoughts outside of just having it as part of a Battle demi-company/centurion siegebreaker formation makes it where I can fit them in if I want to now (again, non-competitive lists here), as well as feel like I'm picking tactics more focused around what my favorite chapter (Blood Ravens) would be like with the Iron Hands' Fist of Medusa Strike Force/Iron Hands extended rules. In the main codex, I didn't really have anything I found that would really define the campaign style fighting forces you got in the DoW games, but then there's the Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force allowed as an auxiliary in the Fist of Medusa and it basically feels like I'm doing what you'd do in the games.

Unique relic options are awesome as well, since you got stuff that feels more like it is appropriate to that chapter and you're not all picking from the same group when they would have their own.

While I would have liked it to just be a digital update/ add-on to the back of the main codex, I can only hope that it's the start of a trend of having them actually focus on unique game aspects for the main identities for each faction rather than mentioning they exist and nothing else is beneficial for choosing one over the other. As a new player who hasn't been playing more than a year and a half now, I feel it gave me more options for playing Space Marines to see how I'd like to play overall.

 krodarklorr wrote:

nekooni wrote:
I fear that the next major content will feature Necrons and one of the non-vanilla Marines (best case: BA) instead, tbh.

Fear? I would love for a Necron supplement. Please and thank you. Every other ridiculous army has one.

Yeah, but the nonridiculous armies really should get some stuff. Necrons vs Orks/CSM would be fine for me, with a Codex Update for Orks/CSM on the side.

nekooni wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

nekooni wrote:
I fear that the next major content will feature Necrons and one of the non-vanilla Marines (best case: BA) instead, tbh.

Fear? I would love for a Necron supplement. Please and thank you. Every other ridiculous army has one.

Yeah, but the nonridiculous armies really should get some stuff. Necrons vs Orks/CSM would be fine for me, with a Codex Update for Orks/CSM on the side.

To be perfectly fair...

The following armies lack a Decurion style detachment, be it from a supplement or their core codex.

CSM
Tyranids
Dark Eldar
Blood Angels
Grey Knights (sigh.)
Sisters of Direct Only.

The following armies don't even have their own unique Tactical Objectives.

CSM
Tyranids
Sisters of Direct Only.

The following armies don't even have an alternative style detachment of any sort (not just Decurion).

CSM.
Sisters of Direct Only.

Likewise, they don't have complete model ranges.

I think we all know who needs more love.

Taken by itself, I am pretty happy with the book. My Crimson Fists got a really cool detachment and some very fluffy Auxilliary choices. I am perplexed as to why Pedro Kantor can't be taken anywhere in the entire detachment. It seems like an oversight, so it might get errata. The psychic disciplines are pretty cool, though I probably won't make use of them.

Two things confuse me more than anything. 1. The original Angels of Death was what introduced Dark Angels and Blood Angels. Yet, neither army has any representation in this book! I imagine Dark Angels will be in Fenris Part II, no idea on the Blood Angels (probably never). 2. Why is GW spending time in this when other armies should be getting focus, like Dark Eldar or Orks. Chaos Space Marines need a new codex!

So I have mixed feelings. It worked out fairly well for one of my armies, but the other one is screwed again.

It's entirely true that since GW was going to release this supplement, that they really should have thrown a much bigger bone to the traditionally neglected Chapters, notably the Black Templars, and to a slightly lesser extent, the Salamanders.
Salamanders players at least got their own special snowflake detachment and some new relics. I'm so terribly sorry it's not as OP bullgak as the Gladius though, I can imagine just how hard done-by Salamander players are, not being able to effortlessly curbstomp their way into the top 10-15% of Tournaments.

Black Templar players have a reason to be peeved, as they got nothing at all. (Oooooo, some Warlord Traits!)
If ANYONE was going to get a shiny new detachment, then it should have been the Black Templars, since they don't get access to the basic Gladius, since it flies in the face of their background.

Are Marine players hard done by because the supplement had some missteps? Go cry me a god damned river.

Try being a Chaos player, or a Dark Eldar or Ork or Tyranid player, etc...

for Chaos players this supplement was just yet another middle finger to us, as all it did was (yet again) make Loyalist scum about 100x better at the things that are meant to be a Chaos specialty. (*cough*newpsychicloresofautowin*cough*)
You want to know what disappointment really is? Look what did Chaos got; a 95% copy-paste of our two existing (and at best mediocre) supplements, with the only "new" content being a handful of formations that are pretty much all just pale shadows of what the blessed Gary Stu's get, and not a single one of our basic issues even remotely addressed.

Seriously, I'd love to see Marine players play a game, but they can't use;
- ATSKNF
- Chapter Tactics
- Combat Squads
- Grav
- Relic Blades & Sternguard ammo
- 2+ saves on HQ's
- 3++ saves
- no Bike Squad as Troops
- Characters must always issue/accept any challenges in close combat.
- Razorbacks & Drop Pods
- only Land Raider is the basic one, and no PotMS.

Welcome to the cesspool of 4th edition that CSM players have been forced to "enjoy" since 2007!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Taken by itself, I am pretty happy with the book. My Crimson Fists got a really cool detachment and some very fluffy Auxilliary choices. I am perplexed as to why Pedro Kantor can't be taken anywhere in the entire detachment. It seems like an oversight, so it might get errata. The psychic disciplines are pretty cool, though I probably won't make use of them.

Two things confuse me more than anything. 1. The original Angels of Death was what introduced Dark Angels and Blood Angels. Yet, neither army has any representation in this book! I imagine Dark Angels will be in Fenris Part II, no idea on the Blood Angels (probably never). 2. Why is GW spending time in this when other armies should be getting focus, like Dark Eldar or Orks. Chaos Space Marines need a new codex!

So I have mixed feelings. It worked out fairly well for one of my armies, but the other one is screwed again.

This. Mostly I feel bad for all the non-SM armies, but the selfish part of me is annoyed that once again DA get the shaft, just like BA and SW. We're all technically Space Marines, but no, only the guys who have the book with the Ultramarines on the cover can use our special supplements. At least I get to use the new psychic powers and troll people.

I bought it, seems pretty good. Iron hands are bananas. Not sure if its better than my White Scars BC, but its reallly durable.

I don't see what the big deal is here guys, SM always get the most attention- they always have, always will- because they sell the most models.

 jreilly89 wrote:

This. Mostly I feel bad for all the non-SM armies, but the selfish part of me is annoyed that once again DA get the shaft, just like BA and SW. We're all technically Space Marines, but no, only the guys who have the book with the Ultramarines on the cover can use our special supplements. At least I get to use the new psychic powers and troll people.

Actually your only maybe 99% correct here, and most likely a ymdc, book page 52 under Forces of the Space Marines uses both chapters from codex:space marines minus smurfs and then same sentence any space marine army. It could be the any space marine part is just referencing Smurfs, but I doubt it since I believe hatred: space marine counts any space marine regardless of book they are from. Also reading it seems only really referencing 1 of the detachments and the psychic powers.

Miradorm wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

This. Mostly I feel bad for all the non-SM armies, but the selfish part of me is annoyed that once again DA get the shaft, just like BA and SW. We're all technically Space Marines, but no, only the guys who have the book with the Ultramarines on the cover can use our special supplements. At least I get to use the new psychic powers and troll people.

Actually your only maybe 99% correct here, and most likely a ymdc, book page 52 under Forces of the Space Marines uses both chapters from codex:space marines minus smurfs and then same sentence any space marine army. It could be the any space marine part is just referencing Smurfs, but I doubt it since I believe hatred: space marine counts any space marine regardless of book they are from. Also reading it seems only really referencing 1 of the detachments and the psychic powers.

Usually PE: SM/Hatred (SM) is clarified to be against BA, SW and DA as well as the vanilla Codex.

So really the three former armies get all of the negatives of being a space marine while missing out on some good positives (Grav-Centurions, Thunderfire Cannon, Biker Troops, all of the psychic tables to name but a few).

Gee, it sure does suck playing the I, VI or IX legions.

Furthermore, GW needs to stop shoving its poster boy down our throats. I would love a Chaos/Ork campaign (because Khorne wins no matter what), or a Dark Eldar/Tau campaign (deal with the devil), or pretty much ANY two factions that aren't the Imperium. Heck, Imperial Guard and some faction, just so we see what the hammer does. Variation. Not 'this week, on Space Marine watch'.

Miradorm wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

This. Mostly I feel bad for all the non-SM armies, but the selfish part of me is annoyed that once again DA get the shaft, just like BA and SW. We're all technically Space Marines, but no, only the guys who have the book with the Ultramarines on the cover can use our special supplements. At least I get to use the new psychic powers and troll people.

Actually your only maybe 99% correct here, and most likely a ymdc, book page 52 under Forces of the Space Marines uses both chapters from codex:space marines minus smurfs and then same sentence any space marine army. It could be the any space marine part is just referencing Smurfs, but I doubt it since I believe hatred: space marine counts any space marine regardless of book they are from. Also reading it seems only really referencing 1 of the detachments and the psychic powers.

Have yet to leaf through the book, but I remember a lot of spoilers sites like BoLS saying non-codex SM chapters can't use this.

The new psychic powers are stupidly crazy level 10. Like, whut? Did anyone even playtest these for a coupla games?

Bonkers, bonkers good.

edit: apologies for the contentious lamguage...

I have to agree with some of the other players here. As a tzeentch csm player, and seeing these psychic powers, then looking at my tzeentch tree, I feel like that kid at school who has a piece of cardboard with the word game boy on it while everyone else has an actual game boy, now in colour!

Experiment 626 wrote:

Black Templar players have a reason to be peeved, as they got nothing at all. (Oooooo, some Warlord Traits!)

As one of 40-something 2nd founding chapters I'm not sure why they would expect to get anything. No one's complaining that the Nova Marines or Fists Exemplar didn't get anything.

The Black Templar traits are pretty stellar, to be fair.

ohh boo hoo hoo! my chapter special strike force isn't notably better in every way then the Gladius strike force! BOO HOO HOO! then take the gladius, you've still got the options to use two strike forces, unlike Ultramarines who JUST have the Gladius, Black Templars who are resoundingly ignored due to their lack of 1st founding status and thus are limited to a CAD, the blood angels who currently lack a strike force of their own etc.

seriously, the salamanders strike force is decent, it's situationally advantagous but it's not a bad thing, as a sally player you've got the option to with some mild tweeks configure to a gladius or a flame blade. there might be times when you find +1 str to flame weapons being better then OS, (remember BTW this also applies to the flamers on Land raider redeemers as it's a detachment bonus not chapter tactics) options are good,

I'm happy with mine. I run my custom chapter as Ravenguards at the moment, so already had all the Kauyon stuff. But I like all the options this opens up for me to play different styles with my single collection of space marines.

I'm not sure what else people were expecting out of a space marine supplement.

As for if GW could have invested the time and money in a chaos codex, or guard. Maybe they could or should have done this. But I would say this didn't take a lot of work, and was a sure fire seller for them.

Chaos need far more investment than a supplement. They need a new codex and a heck of a lot of new models.

 General Kroll wrote:
I'm happy with mine. I run my custom chapter as Ravenguards at the moment, so already had all the Kauyon stuff. But I like all the options this opens up for me to play different styles with my single collection of space marines.

I'm not sure what else people were expecting out of a space marine supplement.

As for if GW could have invested the time and money in a chaos codex, or guard. Maybe they could or should have done this. But I would say this didn't take a lot of work, and was a sure fire seller for them.

Chaos need far more investment than a supplement. They need a new codex and a heck of a lot of new models.

as it is Guard already HAVE a supplement similer to this, Codex: Cadia.

Wait. How can you not make a competitive list with the flameblade?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wait. How can you not make a competitive list with the flameblade?

I think what he's argueing is it doesn't immediatly obselete the Gladius strike force

Salamanders really should have got a unique demi company to reflect their completely nonstandard chapter organization (7 companies total, 5 battle, no reserve and 12 squads each). It's like they started making formations with WS and RG but just ran out of steam. So IH, IF and Sallies decurions are all like some weird combination of UM, WS and RG formations? Does not compute. Maybe if they hadn't blown their page allotment on all those new psychic lores nobody asked for and have no logical reason for existing or being SM-specific...

But anyway back on topic. About those CSM!

 Konrax wrote:
I have to agree with some of the other players here. As a tzeentch csm player, and seeing these psychic powers, then looking at my tzeentch tree, I feel like that kid at school who has a piece of cardboard with the word game boy on it while everyone else has an actual game boy, now in colour!

Tzeentch lore exists so that SM can feel REALLY good about their own psychic powers. "Omg I totally defeated that Tzeentch sorcerer with my librarian powers! And Tzeentch is like the god of magic too! SMs are so kewl."

I assumed the WS and ravenguard formations came from Kauyon

BrianDavion wrote:
there might be times when you find +1 str to flame weapons being better then OS, (remember BTW this also applies to the flamers on Land raider redeemers as it's a detachment bonus not chapter tactics)

Incorrect! The +1 Str bonus only applies to "Salamander models in this Detachment." Per Codex: Space Marines "Salamander models" are models with the Chapter Tactics special rule.

I feel disappointed by necron formations that gives you +4 reanimation to canoptek wraiths and easy repair on monolith but yeah, tell me more how spoiled we SM players are...