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Sgt_Smudge wrote:I'd say it was a fun list. Not a pushover, but certainly not competitive. I won't deny that.

Now, I'm waiting for the point you will make - "BUT IT WASN'T COMPETITIVE SO MY POINT IS VALID".
It's not.
Your statement = A Battle Company CANNOT win without using the free transports.

Not only did I win, but I did so using sub-par tools (full Tactical Squads - no grav or Drop Pods - mixed vehicle support - Tactical Termies) and beat a non-competitive, mediocre list.
Against your statement, I have done all that was asked.

I'll let the facts speak for themselves.

At any rate, this is ultimately irrelevant to the OP, which sets the criterion for cheese as "publicly recognized." It's not obvious to me that free rhinos are publicly considered cheesy.

Traditio wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:I'd say it was a fun list. Not a pushover, but certainly not competitive. I won't deny that.

Now, I'm waiting for the point you will make - "BUT IT WASN'T COMPETITIVE SO MY POINT IS VALID".
It's not.
Your statement = A Battle Company CANNOT win without using the free transports.

Not only did I win, but I did so using sub-par tools (full Tactical Squads - no grav or Drop Pods - mixed vehicle support - Tactical Termies) and beat a non-competitive, mediocre list.
Against your statement, I have done all that was asked.

I'll let the facts speak for themselves.

At any rate, this is ultimately irrelevant to the OP, which sets the criterion for cheese as "publicly recognized." It's not obvious to me that free rhinos are publicly considered cheesy.

I don't think anyone considers Librarians, Centurians and Drop Pods cheesy. Its only when you abuse it.

Traditio wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:I'd say it was a fun list. Not a pushover, but certainly not competitive. I won't deny that.

Now, I'm waiting for the point you will make - "BUT IT WASN'T COMPETITIVE SO MY POINT IS VALID".
It's not.
Your statement = A Battle Company CANNOT win without using the free transports.

Not only did I win, but I did so using sub-par tools (full Tactical Squads - no grav or Drop Pods - mixed vehicle support - Tactical Termies) and beat a non-competitive, mediocre list.
Against your statement, I have done all that was asked.

I'll let the facts speak for themselves.

At any rate, this is ultimately irrelevant to the OP, which sets the criterion for cheese as "publicly recognized." It's not obvious to me that free rhinos are publicly considered cheesy.

So now that he did exactly what you asked in a game against an opponent who wasn't competitive (but not incompetent/under-powered), you label this whole sub-discussion ultimately irrelevant? Are you kidding me? Ah well.... I guess that's as close as we'll get to you conceding defeat on something.

Tactical_Spam wrote:I don't think anyone considers Librarians, Centurians and Drop Pods cheesy. Its only when you abuse it.

I agree with this. Cheesy-ness only comes from abuse in the case of these units.

Traditio wrote:
I'll let the facts speak for themselves.

At any rate, this is ultimately irrelevant to the OP, which sets the criterion for cheese as "publicly recognized." It's not obvious to me that free rhinos are publicly considered cheesy.

Let whatever you like speak for whichever point you try to allocate it to. You cannot rephrase the question after asking it and still go "swish, I win." Sorry if he proved you wrong and you feel a fool.

The OP is ultimately and utterly irrelevant to anything as it is. "Publicly recognized" is tough to hammer down when the "public" (ie, members of this forum) are openly stating that there isn't a commonly agreed upon definition of cheese.

This thread is essentially "Does your army live up to Traditio's ridiculous yet ever-shifting standards or are you a TFG because I don't want to buy grav or drop pods?" It's a joke.

Tactical_Spam wrote:I don't think anyone considers Librarians, Centurians and Drop Pods cheesy. Its only when you abuse it.

I didn't claim that they are. My purpose in excluding those things is to focus on whether free transports, as such, is cheesy or OP.

Traditio wrote:

Tactical_Spam wrote:I don't think anyone considers Librarians, Centurians and Drop Pods cheesy. Its only when you abuse it.

I didn't claim that they are. My purpose in excluding those things is to focus on whether free transports, as such, is cheesy or OP.

By your own logic it is.

The Wraithknight is OP because it is undercosted meaning you effectively have something in terms of power you have not paid for. I believe you said it was undercosted by about 100 points?
Free transports give at least 350 points of power for free. You can't argue that one is OP and the other is not without shifting goalposts around.

IllumiNini wrote:So now that he did exactly what you asked in a game

He did exactly what I asked in a game, going by the strict letter of what I wrote. Completely ignoring the obvious intent, but he did go by the letter. Congrats to him.

Let me be clear:

I am not going to argue about words.

I also wish to note that Sgt. Smudge, and the other interlocutors in this thread, have completely ignored my subsequent posting:

"I am going to ask you a simple question:

Suppose player A runs:

A captain
A chaplain
6 tactical squads
2 devastator squads
2 assault marines without jump packs.
3 scout squads
10 rhinos

Assume that he is paying the full points costs for all of the above, and is not using grav weaponry.

How would he do against the point equivalence of tau?

Eldar?

Imperial Guard?

Dark Eldar?"

The fact that Sgt. Smudge has met this posting of mine with silence speaks volumes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:By your own logic it is.

The Wraithknight is OP because it is undercosted meaning you effectively have something in terms of power you have not paid for. I believe you said it was undercosted by about 100 points?
Free transports give at least 350 points of power for free. You can't argue that one is OP and the other is not without shifting goalposts around.

I deny the bolded.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. There is no such thing as "free" rhinos in the gladius strike force battle company. The "free" rhinos are factored into the total points cost of the units which form the battle company.

You're not getting a rhino for free. You're getting a captain, a chaplain, 10 - 5 to 10 man squads of marines and an auxillary (say, 3 - 5 man squads of scouts), up to 2 dreadnoughts (optional) and up to 2 command squads (also optional) and up to 10-14 rhinos, etc. for x amount of points (x being greater than 1000).

But I've asked this kind of question before:

The purpose of the points system is to effect equality. Let us assume that 5 marines with bolters and a rhino is 70 points. Is a wraithknight only slightly better than 4 of those squads?

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:So now that he did exactly what you asked in a game

He did exactly what I asked in a game, going by the strict letter of what I wrote. Completely ignoring the obvious intent, but he did go by the letter. Congrats to him.

Let me be clear:

I am not going to argue about words.

Well regardless of whether the intent was obvious, and regardless of whether the intent was ignored: Do not under-estimate the power of specificity. Your intent got ignored because it was intent rather than a specified request? That's on you. Don't dodge that.

In your subsequent request, you've failed to nominate any restrictions on his opponent, meaning his opponent could tailor a list that's easily beaten by you requirements for the Space Marines. That being said, any restrictions you're likely to impose will make it (nigh) impossible for them to win. So in either case: What's the point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The battle Company also factors in the potential for free transports. It doesn't factor in them being automatically taken.

IllumiNini wrote:Well regardless of whether the intent was obvious, and regardless of whether the intent was ignored: Do not under-estimate the power of specificity. Your intent got ignored because it was intent rather than a specified request? That's on you. Don't dodge that.

I didn't phrase my request to the pedantic, nit-picking standards of persons who love to rules-lawyer and quibble over grammatical points in the YMDC forum.

My bad. [/sarcasm]

In your subsequent request, you've failed to nominate any restrictions on his opponent, meaning his opponent could tailor a list that's easily beaten by you requirements for the Space Marines. That being said, any restrictions you're likely to impose will make it (nigh) impossible for them to win. So in either case: What's the point?

Against the most common lists.

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:Well regardless of whether the intent was obvious, and regardless of whether the intent was ignored: Do not under-estimate the power of specificity. Your intent got ignored because it was intent rather than a specified request? That's on you. Don't dodge that.

I didn't phrase my request to the pedantic, nit-picking standards of persons who love to rules-lawyer and quibble over grammatical points in the YMDC forum.

My bad. [/sarcasm]

Stuck in a rut of sarcasm, stubbornness and (arguable) rudeness... what joy for the rest of us.

Traditio wrote:

In your subsequent request, you've failed to nominate any restrictions on his opponent, meaning his opponent could tailor a list that's easily beaten by you requirements for the Space Marines. That being said, any restrictions you're likely to impose will make it (nigh) impossible for them to win. So in either case: What's the point?

Against the most common lists.

And how do you define "...the most common lists"? Because you know that's going to differ greatly anywhere you go....

IllumiNini wrote:And how do you define "...the most common lists"? Because you know that's going to differ greatly anywhere you go....

Oy vey.

This is loki's fallacy.

You have an idea of what the most common lists are for any given codex. Dark Eldar, e.g., is going to spam venoms and raiders.

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:And how do you define "...the most common lists"? Because you know that's going to differ greatly anywhere you go....

Oy vey.

This is loki's fallacy.

You have an idea of what the most common lists are for any given codex. Dark Eldar, e.g., is going to spam venoms and raiders.

Do regular Marine lists involve 12 tanks? Because mine do...

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:And how do you define "...the most common lists"? Because you know that's going to differ greatly anywhere you go....

Oy vey.

This is loki's fallacy.

You have an idea of what the most common lists are for any given codex. Dark Eldar, e.g., is going to spam venoms and raiders.

No I don't, actually because I don't play against them enough, and nor am I familiar with their Codeces. So when you decide to actually be specific, enlighten me.

 IllumiNini wrote:

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:And how do you define "...the most common lists"? Because you know that's going to differ greatly anywhere you go....

Oy vey.

This is loki's fallacy.

You have an idea of what the most common lists are for any given codex. Dark Eldar, e.g., is going to spam venoms and raiders.

No I don't, actually because I don't play against them enough, and nor am I familiar with their Codeces. So when you decide to actually be specific, enlighten me.

DE: Raiders and venoms filled with warriors. Blasters and lances.

Tau: riptides, broadsides, crisis suits, fire warriors, pathfinders, etc.

Eldar: Scatter bikes and wraithknights

Imperial Guard: Leeman Russ spam OR infantry and barrage artillery spam.

Let's start with those.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck, let's even throw in:

SM: White scars bike spam.

Traditio wrote:
The "free" rhinos are factored into the total points cost of the units which form the battle company.

No they aren't. Those units have point costs that were established before the free Rhinos/Razorbacks/pods were added, and have the same point costs in detachments that don't give free transports.

The purpose of the points system is to effect equality. Let us assume that 5 marines with bolters and a rhino is 70 points. Is a wraithknight only slightly better than 4 of those squads?

Depends on how you define "better". If your goal is to win a game with objectives then the MSU marines are better. If, as you prefer to do, you simply line up both sides and roll dice until one side is destroyed as your measure of balance, the wraithknight probably wins.

Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:And how do you define "...the most common lists"? Because you know that's going to differ greatly anywhere you go....

Oy vey.

This is loki's fallacy.

You have an idea of what the most common lists are for any given codex. Dark Eldar, e.g., is going to spam venoms and raiders.

Did "loki's fallacy" come up on your "fallacy of the day" calendar or something?

This is your thread, your poll, you have every right to define the limitations of the term cheese in the context you're applying it.

What you're actually doing is making it up and revising it as you go to suit your own arguments, while giving nobody else a level playing field to argue your points because they're constantly in motion.

It's like a fething shell game, only you don't have the decency to pack up and leg it when people spot that you're hiding the ball in your pocket.

Traditio wrote:
and is not using grav weaponry.

Why not? Are you also going to assume that the Eldar player is not using scatter lasers, the DE player is not using lances, the Tau player is not using ion weapons, etc?

Peregrine wrote:No they aren't. Those units have point costs that were established before the free Rhinos/Razorbacks/pods were added, and have the same point costs in detachments that don't give free transports.

I could simply answer that the lack of free rhinos is, de facto, a higher points cost that you are paying in exchange for greater list-building flexibility. A rhino is free if and only if you have a full battle company and have taken a unit that qualifies for a free rhino. Having to take a full battle company in and of itself constitutes a "cost" of getting the free rhinos.

You elect instead to take a CAD? You are paying "more" for the rhino and the tacs in exchange for being able to bring what you want within the context of a CAD.

Depends on how you define "better". If your goal is to win a game with objectives then the MSU marines are better. If, as you prefer to do, you simply line up both sides and roll dice until one side is destroyed as your measure of balance, the wraithknight probably wins.

How many rhinos and 5 man tac squads can a wraithknight kill over the course of a game?

How many wraithknights can 4 - 5 man tac squads and their rhinos kill in the course of a game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azreal wrote:Did "loki's fallacy" come up on your "fallacy of the day" calendar or something?

Loki's fallacy:

Various deities: "We're sick of you, Loki. We're going to chop off your head now."

Loki: "Fine. But can only cut at the neck. No shoulders. No head."

Various deities begin to squabble over precisely where the neck is.

I'm not going to have a verbal dispute about something that should be patently obvious to anyone without a personal interest.

Oh great, now we're back to "Bolters should be able to kill everything"

Traditio wrote:
I could simply answer that the lack of free rhinos is, de facto, a higher points cost that you are paying in exchange for greater list-building flexibility. A rhino is free if and only if you have a full battle company and have taken a unit that qualifies for a free rhino. Having to take a full battle company in and of itself constitutes a "cost" of getting the free rhinos.

You elect instead to take a CAD? You are paying "more" for the rhino and the tacs in exchange for being able to bring what you want within the context of a CAD.

Ok. Then I expect you to never, under any circumstances, complain about "free" bonuses that other detachments get.

How many rhinos and 5 man tac squads can a wraithknight kill over the course of a game?

How many wraithknights can 4 - 5 man tac squads and their rhinos kill in the course of a game?

Why do I care? If I'm playing MSU marines I just claim the objectives and win the game. We might as well conclude that your C:SM army is overpowered cheese because it can make more 3+ armor saves against lasgun fire than my IG can make against bolter fire. Technically it's a true statement, but you've rigged the game by only looking at the small part of the balance picture that favors your argument.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Oh great, now we're back to "Bolters should be able to kill everything"

Tac marines also have krak grenades. So, there's that.

Traditio wrote:
I'm not going to have a verbal dispute about something that should be patently obvious to anyone without a personal interest.

IOW: "if you ever come up with an example that counters my point I'm just going to dismiss it as "not what I was talking about" and refuse to admit defeat." Does your C:SM detachment allow you to give each squad a free set of goal posts on wheels?

Gotta give you props Traditio, not since Jancoran and the Forgeworld thread has one user been able to inspire so much arguing in a thread.

Peregrine wrote:Ok. Then I expect you to never, under any circumstances, complain about "free" bonuses that other detachments get.

Search my posting history. I don't think that I've ever made any such complaints.

I've actually argued the exact opposite way. Go back to my thread about how formations have the best possibility of balancing the game.

My complaints have nothing to do with anyone getting "free" stuff. In virtue of the fact that you're taking a formation, it's not free. (The exception are things like the windrider host and the aspect host in the Eldar codex; there's nothing really taxing about those formations).

Why do I care? If I'm playing MSU marines I just claim the objectives and win the game.

Of the 4 - 5 man tac squads and their "free" rhinos, faced against that wraithknight, how many can I reasonable expect to survive to claim an objective at the end of turn 5 (or, what is more likely, turn 6)?

Traditio wrote:
Oy vey.

This is loki's fallacy.

You have an idea of what the most common lists are for any given codex. Dark Eldar, e.g., is going to spam venoms and raiders.

Traditio wrote:
DE: Raiders and venoms filled with warriors. Blasters and lances.

Tau: riptides, broadsides, crisis suits, fire warriors, pathfinders, etc.

Eldar: Scatter bikes and wraithknights

Imperial Guard: Leeman Russ spam OR infantry and barrage artillery spam.

Let's start with those.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck, let's even throw in:

SM: White scars bike spam.

You *DO* realize you're making the assumption that the most common lists are the so-called over-spammed cheesefests you hate so much right?

I don't really know what kind of meta you play in but it must be full of jerks if you have this big a chip on your shoulder about people always playing competitive lists. Let me ask you this:

What were the approximate lists your opponents fielded in your last three regular games. Not counting league or tournament play if you happen to be involved in that sort of thing. Just friendly pick up games.

 Peregrine wrote:

Traditio wrote:
I'm not going to have a verbal dispute about something that should be patently obvious to anyone without a personal interest.

IOW: "if you ever come up with an example that counters my point I'm just going to dismiss it as "not what I was talking about" and refuse to admit defeat." Does your C:SM detachment allow you to give each squad a free set of goal posts on wheels?

I'm just wondering why even bother arguing, isnt tradit a pretty well known troll by now?

Traditio wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Oh great, now we're back to "Bolters should be able to kill everything"

Tac marines also have krak grenades. So, there's that.

Have you played against anything with AV13 or AV14 recently? Because this concept seems to say that you have never, ever played against vehicles with those Armour Values. Not to mention a complete ignorance of the capabilities of those grenades.

War Kitten wrote:Gotta give you props Traditio, not since Jancoran and the Forgeworld thread has one user been able to inspire so much arguing in a thread.

It seems to be their talent haha.

Lord Corellia wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Oy vey.

This is loki's fallacy.

You have an idea of what the most common lists are for any given codex. Dark Eldar, e.g., is going to spam venoms and raiders.

Traditio wrote:
DE: Raiders and venoms filled with warriors. Blasters and lances.

Tau: riptides, broadsides, crisis suits, fire warriors, pathfinders, etc.

Eldar: Scatter bikes and wraithknights

Imperial Guard: Leeman Russ spam OR infantry and barrage artillery spam.

Let's start with those.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck, let's even throw in:

SM: White scars bike spam.

You *DO* realize you're making the assumption that the most common lists are the so-called over-spammed cheesefests you hate so much right?

I don't really know what kind of meta you play in but it must be full of jerks if you have this big a chip on your shoulder about people always playing competitive lists. Let me ask you this:

What were the approximate lists your opponents fielded in your last three regular games. Not counting league or tournament play if you happen to be involved in that sort of thing. Just friendly pick up games.

This. 100% this. Pay this post some attention and consideration, Traditio.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
I'm just wondering why even bother arguing, isnt tradit a pretty well known troll by now?

I've been asking myself the same question, too. Apparently Traditio is either trolling, has a complete and utter inability to be convinced, or both.

Lord Corellia wrote:You *DO* realize you're making the assumption that the most common lists are the so-called over-spammed cheesefests you hate so much right?

I don't really know what kind of meta you play in but it must be full of jerks if you have this big a chip on your shoulder about people always playing competitive lists. Let me ask you this:

What were the approximate lists your opponents fielded in your last three regular games. Not counting league or tournament play if you happen to be involved in that sort of thing. Just friendly pick up games.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/690891.page

This is the list that I run, with 5 "free" rhinos.

The last game I played was Friday against Dark Eldar. 2002 points for him vs. 1850 of my marines (2015 if you include "free" rhinos). Venoms, raiders (with warriors) and reaver jetbikes. He also brought a flier (that barely did anything before I took it out in a single round of devastator shooting; flakk...never leave home without it) and some formation that included a talos pain engine, a homunculus with webway portal and some other MC that looked like a talos pain engine, but wasn't [whatever they were, they -wrecked- my day! ] He also had a medusa, some winged jump troops...I may be missing things.

Before that, last game I remember playing was a 2 v 2. 1350 per person. Dark Eldar (a shortened version of the list I described above) and Eldar (Wraithknight, scatbikes, farseers, dark reapers and fire dragons) vs. Imperial Knights (3 imperial knights and a 10-man unit of the skitarii infantry that fire the RAD poisoning rounds) and a shortened version of my list.

I forget exactly what was the last game I played before that. But the last one I remember was I a game I played online vs. a Gray Knights player. 2 teleporting dreadknights, purifiers and terminators. WL was Brother-Captain Stern.

Traditio wrote:
Search my posting history. I don't think that I've ever made any such complaints.

I seem to recall you complaining about Necrons and their formation that makes them "too durable". By your own argument that isn't something you can complain about, since the Necron player pays the appropriate price by accepting the limitations of a formation.

(The exception are things like the windrider host and the aspect host in the Eldar codex; there's nothing really taxing about those formations).

IOW, "getting free bonuses for taking a formation is always fine, except for the formations that I don't like". If you get to add the Eldar formations to the list of exceptions then I get to add your free transports.

Of the 4 - 5 man tac squads and their "free" rhinos, faced against that wraithknight, how many can I reasonable expect to survive to claim an objective at the end of turn 5 (or, what is more likely, turn 6)?

Let's assume the Wraithknight automatically kills a unit every turn. Your MSU marines are 8-10 units, and your test gives the Wraithknight 6 turns to kill all of them. At the end of 6 turns you have at least two obsec units (8 total - 6 dead) on objectives, while the Wraithknight can control one at most (zero if the only objectives available to it already have your marines on them). You win at least 2-1 on objectives.

Conclusion: Wraithknights are underpowered and need to be buffed.

Peregrine wrote:I seem to recall you complaining about Necrons and their formation that makes them "too durable". By your own argument that isn't something you can complain about, since the Necron player pays the appropriate price by accepting the limitations of a formation.

I made the exact opposite claim. I asserted in the proposed rules forum that the problem with Necrons is -not- the Decurion. If 5+ reanimation protocols isn't OP, then it seems scarcely correct to say that adding 1 to it is broken.

And even if I did say it, my problem wouldn't be the fact that it's "free." My problem would be the fact that the bonus itself is too good, whether or not it's free.

IOW, "getting free bonuses for taking a formation is always fine, except for the formations that I don't like". If you get to add the Eldar formations to the list of exceptions then I get to add your free transports.

Except, not. The aspect host basically allows you to take whatever you want. Same with the wraith construct auxillary.

The battle company? Not so much. It's much more restrictive, very much like the Necron Decurion.

Let's assume the Wraithknight automatically kills a unit every turn.

I see no reason to assume this.

Your MSU marines are 8-10 units

It's 8 units.4 marine squads and 4 rhinos.

and your test gives the Wraithknight 6 turns to kill all of them. At the end of 6 turns you have at least two obsec units on objectives, while the Wraithknight can control one at most. You win 2-1 on objectives.

The wraithknight comes with 2 ranged-D cannons and is a jump gargantuan monstrous creature. Furthermore, the rules clearly permit assaulting a unit that had to disembark from a transport that you wrecked in the shooting phase.

Why should I assume that the wraithknight only kills 1 unit per turn?

That wraithknight has the capability of killing up to 3 or 4 units per turn, if the dice are in the eldar player's favor.