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Recently I have seen quite a few posts both here and on other boards regarding the infamous topic of female-space marines and why they should or shouldn’t exist. Personally I believe they should remain as they are, not because I’m some kind of backwards thinking misogynistic jerk but because it makes sense within the setting and the established lore. Let me just start out by saying that I fully support the idea that there should be a more even gender divide in the model range as it’s a bit of a sausage fest at the moment. The WH40K universe seems to get a bit of a bad rap when it comes to gender equality by people outside of the 40k community who tend to have a very simplified view of the setting and at first glance all seem to jump to the conclusion that there is not enough female representation and that it is an all-boys club where non males are not wanted. I would love to see more people join the hobby regardless of their gender and from what I have seen the community as a whole is a very warm and welcoming one (for the most part).

When it comes to the armies available to play you have the following:

Orks- gender neutral- as they are sentient killer fungus.

Necrons- gender neutral- as they are ancient killer robots.

Chaos Daemons- gender neutral- as they are daemons and there for their physical forms don’t actually exist.

Tyranids- gender neutral- they are birthed within the Hive ships so have no need for gender.

Eldar- mixed gender- Eldar armies are always of mixed gender as they see no distinction between the capabilities of males and females.

Astra Militarum- mixed gender- The Imperium doesn’t care what the hell you are as long as you are human and can fire a gun then you have a place within the meat grinder that is the armies of the Imperium.

Inquisition- mixed gender- Same as the Astra Militarum, as long as you are human and have a burning hatred of all non-human life then welcome aboard.

Adeptus Mechanicus- mixed gender/ gender neutral- They my start out as either male or female but by the end they will end up more machine then creatures of flesh.

Tau Empire- mixed gender- Similar to the Astra Militarum, doesn’t matter what your gender is as long as your actions support the “Greater Good”.

Imperial Knights- gender neutral- giant robot suits.

Adepta Sororitas- all Female- the only all-female army and unfortunate one of the most neglected. If GW wanted to get some positive PR then they should put a bit more effort into promoting this army.

Now we come to the big ones the Space Marines/ Chaos Space Marines. These all-male armies are by far the most prominent faction in the game. The argument for female Space Marines seems to focus almost exclusively on the fact that these all-male armies are the most popular regardless of the other options available. Critics seem to forget what a Space Marine actually is in the 40k universe; the Space Marines are giant genetically altered, psychologically conditioned, asexual killing machine warrior monks that live exclusively to fight and die in the name of the Imperium. Even if you could have Female- Space Marines after all the surgery and genetic manipulation you wouldn’t end up with some kind of amazon goddess; they would look almost identical to the Males. What use would breasts be to an infertile asexual giant in a fight ?

The question as to way only males can be Space Marines is an interesting one and I think deserves to be explored. Within the lore the Gene-seed is only compatible with the male genetic code, but way? The Emperor was said to be a master of genetic manipulation so way couldn’t he make it work for both? The answer i feel can be found in the Horus Heresy series, Malcador the Sigillite lets slip that he had tried to convince the Emperor to make the Primarchs female instead of male. The Emperor ignored Malcador a presided to make the Primarchs all male. This is important because it shows that the decision was a conscious one on the Emperors part and not just some kind of oversight; but why? Maybe the Emperor just liked the idea of being surrounded by giant burly men but I think it’s a bit deeper than that. The Space Marines where designed to be super human warriors whose sole purpose was to defend humanity from the horrors that lurk between the stars. They were a powerful tool to be used and then discarded when they were of no more use. The decision to make them a single gender was in my opinion a calculated way of controlling their numbers and making sure the Emperor and by extension the lords of terra could keep the Space Marines on a short leach. Space Marines are a powerful force and the Lords of Terra need to maintain control over them somehow, so what’s the easiest way to make sure that they are kept to a manageable level? Easy you control their ability to breed. Because of all the genetic manipulation a Space marine goes through during their creation they are essentially no longer human and are no longer able to have children with normal humans as they are now just too different. This means that the High Lords of Terra have ultimate control over the creation of any new marines as they cannot be created in a natural way. The creation of a single Space Marine is a very long and dangerous process which means that they will always be greatly outnumbered by the rest of the Imperium by such a large margin that even if all the Marines joined forces and declared war on the rest of the Imperium they could not possibly win. The problem starts when you add Female-Space Marines into the mix is that it adds the possibility that they could possible breed with their male counterparts and if that happens the Lords of Terra lose their tight grip on the creation of these powerful super humans. If Space Marines are able to be born instead of artificially created then they become a species in their own right and are now in direct competition with the rest of humanity (take a wild guise who is going to win when it comes to the survival of the fittest?)

The Space Marine where never supposed to become a new race, they were created to serve humanity not replace it.

This is purely my interpretation of the situation and I would be greatly interested in hearing what other people think.

Some very good points - the lack of female minis in 40k is really annoying for me........

There are female Necrons - they are directly referenced in both Black Library novels and FW Imperial Armour. At least one other compnay sells Necron females 9along with other females that GW can't be bothered to make)

Also there is at least one female Imperial Knight pilot.............and no reason why a specifc Knight world might have developed mixed or female pilots as opposed to the usual male only pilots.

Its sad the Sororitas is so neglected :(

The tabletop is very different to the fluff and the BL novbels where there are many many female characters in all areas and at all levels - some good some bad, some talented, some useless.
It is ONLY the tabletop where they don't appear.

I would tend to agree that the Space Marines are designed not to be a new super race but an expendable force that can be phased out when the Great Crusade acheves its aims......they have lasted so long because the Emperor's plans all failed. I always asumed that they were sexless by design, emtionally and physically. The only ones that seem to break the rules are the Space Wolves - but hey whats new

Chaos Marines are different - if a Patron Chaos god wanted to do, they could be made female or both or none on a whim..........likely some have just for LOLs and to allow new expereinces, sensations etc - thinking mainly Tzeentch and Slaanesh here......

There are female Necrons - they are directly referenced in both Black Library novels and FW Imperial Armour. At least one other compnay sells Necron females 9along with other females that GW can't be bothered to make)

I was unaware of this, guess I need to read up on my Necron lore thanks.

Also there is at least one female Imperial Knight pilot.............and no reason why a specifc Knight world might have developed mixed or female pilots as opposed to the usual male only pilots.

Agreed I don’t see why there shouldn’t be.

Its sad the Sororitas is so neglected :(

Their time will come and when it does it will be glorious.

The tabletop is very different to the fluff and the BL novbels where there are many many female characters in all areas and at all levels - some good some bad, some talented, some useless.
It is ONLY the tabletop where they don't appear.

I know tabletop wise it’s a money issue with GW but if they want to branch out to new potential customers then they really need to get their act together.

Orks aren't gender neutral. They are gendered male, but are sexless. It's kind of a small hair, but if you want to talk gender you kind of want to split it.

Tau should be a mixed army, but they only have 1 or 2?female SC. That bugged me so much when they did the new coxed and only added men. It's not even hard to make a female tau. It's a slightly different head in an army that was always known to be mixed.

I don't really see a reason to make SM male only. I get that they will make all kinds of justification in the fluff, but there would be no reason to justify it if they changed it in the first place. It's not like we haven't had bigger re-cannons.

Orks aren't gender neutral. They are gendered male, but are sexless. It's kind of a small hair, but if you want to talk gender you kind of want to split it.

I apologize if my terminology was wrong but the whole gender identification issue is starting to get a bit hard to keep track of. The point I was trying to make is that they are, despite their large muscular appearance and thuggish attitude not actually male nor are they female. The fact that such attributes are associated with being “gendered male” is rather depressing .

Tau should be a mixed army, but they only have 1 or 2?female SC. That bugged me so much when they did the new coxed and only added men. It's not even hard to make a female tau. It's a slightly different head in an army that was always known to be mixed.

It’s seems the issue like everything to do with GW is down to money. As far as they are concerned as long as the model has armour and a helmet then it can be whatever you want it to be so why should they throw more money away.

I don't really see a reason to make SM male only. I get that they will make all kinds of justification in the fluff, but there would be no reason to justify it if they changed it in the first place. It's not like we haven't had bigger re-cannons.

Like I said this is only my interpretation of the situation. The problem with the idea about just retconning the fluff is that there is no reason to change it. It’s all well and good to say " there would be no reason to justify it if they changed it in the first place" but way should they change it, what reason can be given to justify such a change.

Brother-Redemptor wrote:

Orks aren't gender neutral. They are gendered male, but are sexless. It's kind of a small hair, but if you want to talk gender you kind of want to split it.

I apologize if my terminology was wrong but the whole gender identification issue is starting to get a bit hard to keep track of. The point I was trying to make is that they are, despite their large muscular appearance and thuggish attitude not actually male nor are they female. The fact that such attributes are associated with being “gendered male” is rather depressing .

Tau should be a mixed army, but they only have 1 or 2?female SC. That bugged me so much when they did the new coxed and only added men. It's not even hard to make a female tau. It's a slightly different head in an army that was always known to be mixed.

It’s seems the issue like everything to do with GW is down to money. As far as they are concerned as long as the model has armour and a helmet then it can be whatever you want it to be so why should they throw more money away.

I don't really see a reason to make SM male only. I get that they will make all kinds of justification in the fluff, but there would be no reason to justify it if they changed it in the first place. It's not like we haven't had bigger re-cannons.

Like I said this is only my interpretation of the situation. The problem with the idea about just retconning the fluff is that there is no reason to change it. It’s all well and good to say " there would be no reason to justify it if they changed it in the first place" but way should they change it, what reason can be given to justify such a change.

If you conflate sex with gender, you get lose in the weeds really fast. SMs don't even really have a sex when you think about it? They don't have sex, they can't have kids. They have a gender. They call each other brother, they do the manly man things, ect ect.

It's not a money thing. The requirements to make a Tau SC are very very simple. Make a SC, make them female, add two lines to their forehead (or not you know because you don't even have to do that.) They added something like over 10 Tau SC (Most without their own model even.) But only 1 Female. There is no excuse.

If people want female SM, that is a fair reason to change them.

The fluff argument for me is incredibly simple.

Space Marines, the end result of the old Thunder Warrior idea, are genetically/biologically modified/enhanced humans, the goal being larger/stronger/faster warriors etc.

The fluff indicates that the percentage of initiates who actually make it through the entire process is very small. So, only the strongest, most physically fit etc.

If we assume that humans in the 41st millenia are similar or identical to current humans - you'd end up with taking the largest, strongest humans. Biologically that means you'd end up with an overwhelming majority of male candidates (nigh on 100% males).

It's a simple physical truth, even if it pisses people off. It's not true in other species, but for humans males are generally larger built, capable of more muscle mass, etc. If you're going to modify something into a super soldier you would likely start with the larger/strongest base that you could find - hence males.

Marines do not need empathy, emotions, caring, diversity, etc. They're engineered according to set rules to accomplish tasks X, Y and Z. The Imperium is cold and hard enough to not give a damn about political correctness, diversity etc. It is a purpose built tool/army of simple strength.
_____________

Now, enter science fiction. In a world of fluff which produced Squats (humans from high gravity worlds) etc. you could equally create a world/system, etc. which for some reason produces stronger/larger females vs. males for that human population (some kind of atmospheric/biological reasoning?). In this case you could generate female space marines if needed. Again, since Space Marines are genetically enhanced there could be an alternate method which produces a female of similar size/speed/strength (and terrible looks!).

So, I'd say for old fluff based on humans from terra? No female space marines. Now, tens of thousands of years later - you could find a way if you really wanted to.

nomotog wrote:

Brother-Redemptor wrote:

Orks aren't gender neutral. They are gendered male, but are sexless. It's kind of a small hair, but if you want to talk gender you kind of want to split it.

I apologize if my terminology was wrong but the whole gender identification issue is starting to get a bit hard to keep track of. The point I was trying to make is that they are, despite their large muscular appearance and thuggish attitude not actually male nor are they female. The fact that such attributes are associated with being “gendered male” is rather depressing .

Tau should be a mixed army, but they only have 1 or 2?female SC. That bugged me so much when they did the new coxed and only added men. It's not even hard to make a female tau. It's a slightly different head in an army that was always known to be mixed.

It’s seems the issue like everything to do with GW is down to money. As far as they are concerned as long as the model has armour and a helmet then it can be whatever you want it to be so why should they throw more money away.

I don't really see a reason to make SM male only. I get that they will make all kinds of justification in the fluff, but there would be no reason to justify it if they changed it in the first place. It's not like we haven't had bigger re-cannons.

Like I said this is only my interpretation of the situation. The problem with the idea about just retconning the fluff is that there is no reason to change it. It’s all well and good to say " there would be no reason to justify it if they changed it in the first place" but way should they change it, what reason can be given to justify such a change.

If you conflate sex with gender, you get lose in the weeds really fast. SMs don't even really have a sex when you think about it? They don't have sex, they can't have kids. They have a gender. They call each other brother, they do the manly man things, ect ect.

It's not a money thing. The requirements to make a Tau SC are very very simple. Make a SC, make them female, add two lines to their forehead (or not you know because you don't even have to do that.) They added something like over 10 Tau SC (Most without their own model even.) But only 1 Female. There is no excuse.

If people want female SM, that is a fair reason to change them.

Indeed - they even refrerence Tau female squad commanders and vechilce commanders in the campaign book, and in fact the Farsight female SC is the one that gets killed iIRC.....out of ten.

GW just donl;t want to do it for some reason (with regard to mdoels only ) They can do it if they want - some nice WFB models were made...........

and its not hard to do apparently ..........even if soem are a bit cheesecakey (not that I donlt like that but some don;t)

Female Necrons:



Guard



Tau


If they did do a decent range of appropriate female models, ESPECIALLY with reagrd to the Sororitas than the whole female Space Marine issue would be much less likely to arise.

If they were at all interested in Chaos Space Marines they could even do some unpleasent experiment by someone like Fabius Bile that produces female marines..........but they would not be pretty Gw changes stuff all the time - there was no fluff reason for Marines to have loads of flyers, Centurions etc etc _ they just made them up and crammed them into the fluff.

It's not a money thing. The requirements to make a Tau SC are very very simple. Make a SC, make them female, add two lines to their forehead (or not you know because you don't even have to do that.) They added something like over 10 Tau SC (Most without their own model even.) But only 1 Female. There is no excuse.

Ah ok I was referring to the general troop models that are available to each faction but if we are discussing the special characters then I agree. Just look at the phoenix lords of the Eldar, out of the 8 depicted in the fluff only one is female and despite how awesome she is I would like to see this number expanded upon. Come on GW lets have a female warp spider phoenix lord.

If people want female SM, that is a fair reason to change them.

Is there really that much of a demand for them though? Perhaps I should add a poll. Personal I would much prefer for the Adepta Sororitas to get a much needed update instead as adding female-space marines which would make them somewhat redundant. And if they were to do so then the Adepta Sororitas in the interest of fairness would also need to be changed in order to allow male troops and characters.

Agreed

Come on GW lets have a female warp spider phoenix lord.

yeah i think lots of people would love to see something like this :



Sororitas - again it can be done - and SHOULD be done!

nomotog wrote:


If people want female SM, that is a fair reason to change them.

umm no, that's a horriable reason. space marines being guys has decades of fluff, it also has decades of fluff explaining why. I'm all for a greater female presence in 40k, but do so where it makes sense. expand sisters of battle, toss in female SCs where you can (I'd love to see a female commisar SC) but keep in the setting, there is a lot of room for women as it stands, 40k just needs to SHOW IT.

I'd love to see female Space Marines. Or Space Marines to lose gendered terms like "Brother" and be treated more as a distinct culture with their own terminology to further highlight how different they are from base humans.

Zond wrote:
I'd love to see female Space Marines. Or Space Marines to lose gendered terms like "Brother" and be treated more as a distinct culture with their own terminology to further highlight how different they are from base humans.

Their culture is also comes entirely from human cultures as does their language. It seems a waste of time to make a whole new language and culture just because they're different.

To be honest i don't see that there is a lot to complain about GW's 40k when it comes to pandering to gender activists. If you want to see a tabletop game that ruthlessly exploits and oppresses patriarchal feminist word salad then go froth at Flames of War or Bolt Action. No females there at all.

Where GW may be a bit off is on racial representation: guard, marines, sisters, inquisitors and the rest are supposed to be drawn from all of mankind yet I think everyone is lily white caucasian. I don't care about making black, brown or yellow people feel included (whatever that means) but it doesn't seem realistic.

 SolarCross wrote:
To be honest i don't see that there is a lot to complain about GW's 40k when it comes to pandering to gender activists. If you want to see a tabletop game that ruthlessly exploits and oppresses patriarchal feminist word salad then go froth at Flames of War or Bolt Action. No females there at all.

Where GW may be a bit off is on racial representation: guard, marines, sisters, inquisitors and the rest are supposed to be drawn from all of mankind yet I think everyone is lily white caucasian. I don't care about making black, brown or yellow people feel included (whatever that means) but it doesn't seem realistic.

There are female models for bolt action actually...............

pm713 wrote:

Zond wrote:
I'd love to see female Space Marines. Or Space Marines to lose gendered terms like "Brother" and be treated more as a distinct culture with their own terminology to further highlight how different they are from base humans.

Their culture is also comes entirely from human cultures as does their language. It seems a waste of time to make a whole new language and culture just because they're different.

I'm not suggesting Tolkien levels, but culture evolves. When you're taken as a child and inducted into an order of superhuman warriors I'd think there would be a distinct disconnect between your original outlook and your indoctrinated new one. I grant not every chapter should act this way, for example Salamanders being close to humanity would probably attempt to strengthen those ties through language and behaviour. Others would diverge significantly. And it would be an easy way for writers to show those differences.

Or shove in female Astartes. Regardless of tradition or fluff, if comics can finally catch up with diversity perhaps GW can too.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
To be honest i don't see that there is a lot to complain about GW's 40k when it comes to pandering to gender activists. If you want to see a tabletop game that ruthlessly exploits and oppresses patriarchal feminist word salad then go froth at Flames of War or Bolt Action. No females there at all.

Where GW may be a bit off is on racial representation: guard, marines, sisters, inquisitors and the rest are supposed to be drawn from all of mankind yet I think everyone is lily white caucasian. I don't care about making black, brown or yellow people feel included (whatever that means) but it doesn't seem realistic.

There are female models for bolt action actually...............

So just the one? Besides some women actually were in the french resistance, so that doesn't count. When they make gender diverse waffen SS then that will count.


See no women! I am totally enraged at the sheer patriarchy of it! And no blacks or jews either! Disgraceful.

Err whats your point?

So the resistance model is correct as are partisans, and female snipers, and pilots and support personnel - BECAUSE they are historical and correct so they should have Models?

So you must be firmly behind female Astra Millitarium, Eldar warriors, Taur soldiers etc - BECAUSE they are in the fluff - ie historical correct?

or ?????

BrianDavion wrote:

nomotog wrote:


If people want female SM, that is a fair reason to change them.

umm no, that's a horriable reason. space marines being guys has decades of fluff, it also has decades of fluff explaining why. I'm all for a greater female presence in 40k, but do so where it makes sense. expand sisters of battle, toss in female SCs where you can (I'd love to see a female commisar SC) but keep in the setting, there is a lot of room for women as it stands, 40k just needs to SHOW IT.

Fluff gets changed all the time. It's all made up you know, the only thing that really matters is if we like the new made up stuff then the old made up stuff.

The Imperium of 40k is supposed to be a reflection of the Dark Ages/ Medieval times of our own history. That is the setting. It's not meant to be representative of the more progressive and liberal times we now live in. In those times, the Knightly Orders, which the Space Marines are modelled after, were exclusively male. For the entirety of human history, including the present day, the vast majority of the world's fighting forces have been exclusively male. The more advanced and enlightened races in the galaxy such as Tau and Eldar do feature female warriors. This makes a powerful statement, without ruining the authenticity and dark, backwards ethos of the Imperium.

There could be more female models for the xenos armies. I'm not so sure about Tau but for the Eldar, service is cumpulsory, and it's a population facing extinction, so one would expect to see parity.

I think GW has something really big in store for Sisters. They seem to be making overtures towards the ladies in some of their marketing. They are a publicly traded corporation and as such they are, in part, run by marketing people. It doesn't make sense for them, in the face of bloated corporate infrastructure and flagging sales, to continue to neglect half of humanity as potential customers. I suspect they are going to completely redesign SoB to make them a little less sexualized (let's face it, they look like they're on their way to a fetish party), and I think they're going to feature very strongly in the upcoming 8th edition. I think more girls in the game would be great. Imagine being able to meet girls playing 40k? That would bring more guys to the hobby too.

That said, on a more personal level, does EVERYTHING have to be gender neutral these days? Can't anything be just for the guys anymore? Where are the calls to make Sailor Moon, and stuff like that more apealing and accessible to boys? Girls get to have their stuff that's for them, and although society in general does need to be more inclusive there are some places where this is not needed. Guys need to be able to have some stuff that's just for them too. Let's just face it, Space Marines are just uber male. That and theirsence of brotherhood is the charcter of that Army. That's also the bedrock upon which the success of the game is built. Having women Space Marines would mess that right up. Let's just leave Space Marines as they are.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
To be honest i don't see that there is a lot to complain about GW's 40k when it comes to pandering to gender activists. If you want to see a tabletop game that ruthlessly exploits and oppresses patriarchal feminist word salad then go froth at Flames of War or Bolt Action. No females there at all.

Where GW may be a bit off is on racial representation: guard, marines, sisters, inquisitors and the rest are supposed to be drawn from all of mankind yet I think everyone is lily white caucasian. I don't care about making black, brown or yellow people feel included (whatever that means) but it doesn't seem realistic.

There are female models for bolt action actually...............

So just the one? Besides some women actually were in the french resistance, so that doesn't count. When they make gender diverse waffen SS then that will count.


See no women! I am totally enraged at the sheer patriarchy of it! And no blacks or jews either! Disgraceful.

(In terrible french accent) "Ok listen very carefully i will say this only once", as much as I appreciate the replies let’s try not to take things too far off topic.
For anyone not familiar with the series 'Allo 'Allo! I apologies for the bad joke.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Err whats your point?

So the resistance model is correct as are partisans, and female snipers, and pilots and support personnel - BECAUSE they are historical and correct so they should have Models?

So you must be firmly behind female Astra Millitarium, Eldar warriors, Taur soldiers etc - BECAUSE they are in the fluff - ie historical correct?

or ?????

Eldar yes, I am quite fine with them being 50% female. Tau probably also, not that familiar with their fluff but they seem to be a species with a low level of sexual dimorphism so plausible I guess. Though I don't think they are mammals so how would anyone say which one is female or not? It is not like they have breasts.

For the Imperial Guard. Not so much. Some because although they are human from the fluff the recuiters aren't that fussy and often pretty much desperate to throw any warm body they can find into the meat grinder. For humans that is how women end up in the military, same as with old men and teenage boys. Desperate measures. Still I don't see it being more than a few % and then mostly not in frontline roles.

Marines though.. no.. just no. As daft as 40k is from top to bottom (marines riding wolves ROFL!) it just doesn't fit.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Err whats your point?

So the resistance model is correct as are partisans, and female snipers, and pilots and support personnel - BECAUSE they are historical and correct so they should have Models?

So you must be firmly behind female Astra Millitarium, Eldar warriors, Taur soldiers etc - BECAUSE they are in the fluff - ie historical correct?

or ?????

Eldar yes, I am quite fine with them being 50% female. Tau probably also, not that familiar with their fluff but they seem to be a species with a low level of sexual dimorphism so plausible I guess. Though I don't think they are mammals so how would any say which one is female or not? It is not like they have breasts.

For the Imperial Guard. Not so much. Some because although they are human from the fluff the recuiters aren't that fussy and often pretty much desperate to throw any warm body they can find into the meat grinder. For humans that is how women end in the military, same as with old men and teenage boys. Desperate measures. Still I don't see it being more than a few % and then mostly not in frontline roles.

Marines though.. no.. just no. As daft as 40k is from top to bottom (marines riding wolves ROFL!) it just doesn't fit.

Hmm - you do know female front line Imperial Guard troops are very present in the fluff...............- Like I said if GW bothered to make the female figures (Guard, Sororitas etc) that they actually describe then things like female Space Marines would be less mentioned I think.

I assume you are ok with the Sororitas?

Oh and I agree how daft the Wolfy Wolf Riders are :(

A Space Marine cannot be female. As humans, we are sexually dimorphic no matter how you put it. The strongest man will always be better than the strongest woman. Space Marines are selected from a group of aspirants that survived their initial trials. They are then pumped up with drugs and have more trials. At this point you have a fraction of the pool you started with. Now you give them their implants and even then, their numbers decrease as you test them. Space Marines are made from the elite of the elite.

Now couple this information with the fact that the technological regression after the Horus Heresy has made the art of making a Space Marine practically magic. There is no way to reverse engineer Female Space Marines and if someone did, the entirety of Mars would probably send a Legio Titanicus to curb the "heresy."

 Mr Morden wrote:


Hmm - you do know female front line Imperial Guard troops are very present in the fluff...............- Like I said if GW bothered to make the female figures (Guard, Sororitas etc) that they actually describe then things like female Space Marines would be less mentioned I think.

I assume you are ok with the Sororitas?

Oh and I agree how daft the Wolfy Wolf Riders are :(

I am aware of a few. Colonel Shaeffer's Last Chancers for instance.



About 1 in 12 is probably as high as the proportion should be though for Guard. It might be a fantasy game but biology is still a thing.

Sororitas are fine. Why isn't that enough to please the gender police?

Oh and please we don't need necrons or orks with breasts. They are fine as they are as undead robots and fungal blooms.

Oh look this thread again...

::winds vintage imaginary watch::

I don't think there is any problem with Space Marines being all-male. Monogendered factions shouldn't be a block to inclusiveness in any setting as long as females get proportionate representation in other factions. I think the greater injustice is the lack of female Guardsmen, Tau and Eldar characters. These are factions that do have females already lorewise yet this isn't reflected on the tabletop.

Zond wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Zond wrote:
I'd love to see female Space Marines. Or Space Marines to lose gendered terms like "Brother" and be treated more as a distinct culture with their own terminology to further highlight how different they are from base humans.

Their culture is also comes entirely from human cultures as does their language. It seems a waste of time to make a whole new language and culture just because they're different.

I'm not suggesting Tolkien levels, but culture evolves. When you're taken as a child and inducted into an order of superhuman warriors I'd think there would be a distinct disconnect between your original outlook and your indoctrinated new one. I grant not every chapter should act this way, for example Salamanders being close to humanity would probably attempt to strengthen those ties through language and behaviour. Others would diverge significantly. And it would be an easy way for writers to show those differences.

Or shove in female Astartes. Regardless of tradition or fluff, if comics can finally catch up with diversity perhaps GW can too.

You're taken as a child - teenager and then kept in a group of people from the same culture and then if you live you join the superhumans who all have that same shared culture. Most of the time the only difference will be that older marines will have an old version of your culture rather than a completely different one.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I don't think there is any problem with Space Marines being all-male. Monogendered factions shouldn't be a block to inclusiveness in any setting as long as females get proportionate representation in other factions. I think the greater injustice is the lack of female Guardsmen, Tau and Eldar characters. These are factions that do have females already lorewise yet this isn't reflected on the tabletop.

I would say it's more of an issue with SM then it would be with another fraction because SMs account for basically half the fractions by themselves.

nomotog wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I don't think there is any problem with Space Marines being all-male. Monogendered factions shouldn't be a block to inclusiveness in any setting as long as females get proportionate representation in other factions. I think the greater injustice is the lack of female Guardsmen, Tau and Eldar characters. These are factions that do have females already lorewise yet this isn't reflected on the tabletop.

I would say it's more of an issue with SM then it would be with another fraction because SMs account for basically half the fractions by themselves.

Space Marines, in the grand scheme, are at a negligible level. Their numbers are tiny compared to any other faction.