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I am well familiar with the exceptionally well-told tragedy of Prospero and the fall of the Thousand Sons. And this tale implies that, Magnus not withstanding, the Thousand Sons did not really fall to Chaos. They were sort of just caught in a nasty trap and their Primarch made a bit of a mess. But since then, is there any true evidence that the Legion as a whole turned to large-scale worship of Tzeentch or Chaos Undivided? Or are they really just renegade Marines with no interest in Chaos who Tzeentch happens to have claimed, as in the case of Ahriman the Exile? I'm talking about large majorities within the Legion here; not just the odd Sorcerer. So; are the Thousand Sons true Chaos Space Marines, or Renegades and Heretics claimed by the Changer of the Ways?

Can dust worship anything ?

 oldzoggy wrote:
Can dust worship anything ?

Good point. What about the thousands of Sorcerers who survived the Rubric?

Depends on whom you're talking about. Based on what you see in John French's Ahriman series:

Ahriman really, really doesn't like Tzeench - he blames the changer of ways (and himself) for what happened to the legion, and he and his faction of the legion (The Brotherhood of Dust) consider themselves "at war with fate" - his words.

The part of the legion remaining on Prospero..... some do worship tzeench, some don't, but as a rule they are a tzeench aligned faction.

It's just that Tzeench is given to providing his gifts to those who serve his interests, regardless of whether they know they do, or if they want to. Ahriman doesn't want to be a chosen of tzeench, he's just not getting a say in the matter....

So far in the HH novels it really does seem the 1k are just renegades. But the older fluff always had them as full on Tzeentch fanboys. So I suspect there will be an event coming which shows how they ended up fully committed. Maybe related to the dust making, or maybe a separate event.
One of the coming highlights for sure

not really, imo. Both Magnus and Ahriman hate him, and the few flesh-and-bone TS are leagues more loyal to those 2 than tzeentch. Point in case: Magnus's fall to chaos was literally "it's either this or everything I know and love dies because my own hubris + tzeentch and Lorgar are dicks" Double point in case: the only time post heresy magnus has done anything to the IoM, is when he went and got revenge on the wolves.

 Brennonjw wrote:
not really, imo. Both Magnus and Ahriman hate him, and the few flesh-and-bone TS are leagues more loyal to those 2 than tzeentch. Point in case: Magnus's fall to chaos was literally "it's either this or everything I know and love dies because my own hubris + tzeentch and Lorgar are dicks" Double point in case: the only time post heresy magnus has done anything to the IoM, is when he went and got revenge on the wolves.

Magnus was a playable character in epic, so he's done many deeds... On the tabletop.
Plus didn't he help Abby in one crusade?

Plus didn't he help Abby in one crusade?

Probably, based on comments in Talon of Horus Magnus didn't have a choice I would guess.

Currently reading through the 4 Ahriman books and waiting for Tzeench to even be mentioned by name.

Thousand Sons were worshiping Tzeentch long before they got deposited into the warp.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Thousand Sons were worshiping Tzeentch long before they got deposited into the warp.

riight, and the emperor WANTED to be worshiped as a god

It's probably best to consider what a Chaos god really is, and then define what you mean by 'worshipping'.

Were they saying prayers to Tzeentch in a chapel? No. Were they engaging in certain behaviors and emotions that strengthened Tzeentch and furthered its cause? Yes.

Magnus and his legion had extreme tunnel vision. They were clearly messing with things that they shouldn't, but were so focused on the details of it, seduced by the potential for knowledge and power, and just plain naive, that they failed to see the bigger picture. The truth is that they were acting as minions of Tzeentch whether they chose to believe it or not

 gorgon wrote:
It's probably best to consider what a Chaos god really is, and then define what you mean by 'worshipping'.

Were they saying prayers to Tzeentch in a chapel? No. Were they engaging in certain behaviors and emotions that strengthened Tzeentch and furthered its cause? Yes.

Magnus and his legion had extreme tunnel vision. They were clearly messing with things that they shouldn't, but were so focused on the details of it, seduced by the potential for knowledge and power, and just plain naive, that they failed to see the bigger picture. The truth is that they were acting as minions of Tzeentch whether they chose to believe it or not

the problem with that is, by it's nature, that's just how chaos works. Every legion was a khorne worshiper, since they all caused blood shed. Every living being worships nurgle since he is representative of the circle of life as well as disease. In training for battle, the legions worshiped slaanesh since they were aiming for perfection. Active prayer or worship, not accidental, should be taken into account for this question as opposed to the vague chaos-shenanigans since it almost always leads back to one god or another

their hunt or knowledge was both inherantly tzeentch praise, and not at the same time. Magnus's rush to tell the Emperor of Horus is what really kick-started his fall (If not, than the changeling at Nikea, or the whole "trade my eye for my legion's life" that first brought Magnus into Tzeentch's sight.... no pun intended.)

The thousand sons were worshipping Tzeentch before the heresy.

No, going to war is not Khorne worship. If you have butcher's nails, think about nothing but killing, and die in droves because of eagerness to reach the enemy, that is Khorne worship

The Thousand Sons were worshipping Tzeentch before the heresy, in approximately the way they do now.

Of course they are, they are obsessed with magic and knowledge. Even if they hate their god they serve him ever so nicely. The god rewards them for their good deeds and helps them succeed and they make him stronger against their will or not they all serve.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Of course they are, they are obsessed with magic and knowledge. Even if they hate their god they serve him ever so nicely. The god rewards them for their good deeds and helps them succeed and they make him stronger against their will or not they all serve.

Read the OP again. I specifically said WORSHIP not just have their actions CLAIMED by Tzeentch.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Of course they are, they are obsessed with magic and knowledge. Even if they hate their god they serve him ever so nicely. The god rewards them for their good deeds and helps them succeed and they make him stronger against their will or not they all serve.

Read the OP again. I specifically said WORSHIP not just have their actions CLAIMED by Tzeentch.

And the answer is still yes. Their daemon "guardian spirits" which they supplicated to were daemons of Tzeentch.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
Of course they are, they are obsessed with magic and knowledge. Even if they hate their god they serve him ever so nicely. The god rewards them for their good deeds and helps them succeed and they make him stronger against their will or not they all serve.

Read the OP again. I specifically said WORSHIP not just have their actions CLAIMED by Tzeentch.

And the answer is still yes. Their daemon "guardian spirits" which they supplicated to were daemons of Tzeentch.

Much better. Thanks for this answer.

more akin to spell familiars from what I've seen. and again, it's not worship either. "Hey guys, look at these cool warp creatures!" as opposed to" Hey guys, lets worship this warp creature, so these other ones will help us!"

Whether they realised it or not the Thousand Sons are pawns of Tzeentch and have, even if they were not initially or by choice, become followers of Tzeentch

 Brennonjw wrote:
more akin to spell familiars from what I've seen. and again, it's not worship either. "Hey guys, look at these cool warp creatures!" as opposed to" Hey guys, lets worship this warp creature, so these other ones will help us!"

What they really did was "hey warp creature, tell me what to do so you'll teach me your magic". Which fits the bill of worship.

TheWanderer wrote:
Whether they realised it or not the Thousand Sons are pawns of Tzeentch and have, even if they were not initially or by choice, become followers of Tzeentch

Yep. Of all the fallen Legions, they were the one that simply couldn't see the forest for the trees. They had already fallen and yet denied it. They're like a stereotype of an academic...focused like a laser on the object of his/her study but oblivious to the rest of the world around them.

The World Eaters were well aware that they were eroding and falling -- maybe the most self-aware out of all the Traitor Legions after the Word Bearers. The Emperor's Children probably knew at some level, but just didn't care because it felt so good. They were like addicts, only focused on their next high and not looking to the future.

Disloyalty and malice may not have been in the Sons' hearts (although when Dad tells you to stop and you don't...), but they had left their innocence so far behind that it didn't really matter anymore.

Maybe it would be more fitting to say that the Thousand Sons serve Tzeentch but that they don't worship him. Worship implies reverence and adoration, which the TS most certainly do not feel towards Tzeentch.

TheWanderer wrote:
Whether they realised it or not the Thousand Sons are pawns of Tzeentch and have, even if they were not initially or by choice, become followers of Tzeentch

Everybody is a pawn of Tzeentch.

 JustALittleOrkish wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
not really, imo. Both Magnus and Ahriman hate him, and the few flesh-and-bone TS are leagues more loyal to those 2 than tzeentch. Point in case: Magnus's fall to chaos was literally "it's either this or everything I know and love dies because my own hubris + tzeentch and Lorgar are dicks" Double point in case: the only time post heresy magnus has done anything to the IoM, is when he went and got revenge on the wolves.

Magnus was a playable character in epic, so he's done many deeds... On the tabletop.
Plus didn't he help Abby in one crusade?

I'm a bit late to the party, but I don't believe it was Magnus, but Ahriman who helped Abby. A quote from Lexicanum:

Though Magnus the Red refused to meet with him, Abaddon still gained the blessing of Tzeentch in exchange for the Eye of Night, the sightless remnant of the Stone God. He then turned to Ahriman, who in turn pledged the services of his Rubric Marines to the Despoilers cause.

As for the OP's question, I can't add anything but will agree with what has been said. Each cult leader revered their tutelary (secretly daemons of Tzeentch) in the way an awe-filled student does a talented and knowledgeable teacher. The thousand sons act on their own desires, following the lead of either Magnus or Ahriman. They know they are playing Tzeentch's game, and lust after the rewards he gifts to the cunning and determined.

Yeah, IIRC, Abbadon showed up to get Magnus' blessing, and Magnus told him to get the hell out of his system before he vaporised Abby's spaceship. Or something along those lines. Magnus spends his time post-heresy brooding, trying to come up with ways to screw up the Space Wolves, and otherwise generally keeping to himself. I don't think he bears the Imperium of Man any more or less malice than he bears for Tzeentch/Chaos himself. He spends a lot of his time playing the Great Game, but it wouldn't surprise me if he played it as his own faction as opposed to working for anyone else, his psychic power level was supposedly comparable to the Emperor after all. He might not be as powerful as the big 4, but he's no normal lightweight daemon prince.

I think we need to define worship or we'll get nowhere.
I'm not aware of any Khornate Temples where people sit down and someone reads a book to them.

I'm sure there are Tzeentchian Temples where people do Tzeentchian things to curry favour with Tzeentch.
Theres a game out now called silver tower- about the residence of a Tzeentch worshiper.
The thousand sons built silver towers, pyramids of crystal where they kept esoteric knowledge and did psychic rituals in crystalline caves all before the Heresy.

Nothing is so untzeentchian as an unchanging golem.
Nothing is so Tzeentchian as a conspiring scholar who is condemned to life as an unchanging, unlearning golem through the hubris of yet another conspiring scholar.

Unless of course that second scholar had magic powers and was doing his best to undo the mutations that worship of Tzeentch himself had wrought.

Ahriman is a man with a plan to undo the horrific effects of his previous plan to escape the horrific mutation caused by the previous pact of Magnus to stop the horrific mutation caused by Magnus dabbling and pacts with warp creatures.
And all the while he does not consider himself Tzeentch's worshipper or pawn.

 =Angel= wrote:
I'm not aware of any Khornate Temples where people sit down and someone reads a book to them.

Every battlefield in the galaxy is a Khornate temple.

The ones who are still with Magnus on Sortiarius absolutely worship Chaos. Magnus is, after all, a daemon prince of Tzeentch

 Orblivion wrote:
The ones who are still with Magnus on Sortiarius absolutely worship Chaos. Magnus is, after all, a daemon prince of Tzeentch

Tzeentch might have been the one infuse his physical being with the essence of the warp, but it's worth remembering just how psychically powerful Magnus is in his own right. The Emperor even planned to stick him on the Golden Throne, he retains so much of his dad's power. I'd certainly place him on the same level as the minor Chaos deities, and the fact he spurned Abby, who is blessed by all four major powers, indicates that he retains some independence of thought/action.

Following that chain of though, I can see him being a bit hacked off if the blokes living with him became completely devoted to the power which cost him his eye, father, his place in the Empire of Man, and finally, most of his sons. Considering Ahriman has no love for Tzeentch either, I'm not convinced that even today, the Thousand Sons (as a collective) are out and out Tzeentch worshippers. I suspect they're more likely to view Chaos in the same way as the Alpha Legion, namely a tool to be used for their own ends.

Surely the Thousand Sons, more than any other legion, must understand that believing Chaos is a tool to be used for your own benefit will inevitably end in the exact opposite situation.

P.S. I actually don't think the emperor ever planned to put Magnus on the golden throne, but that's a different discussion.