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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I won't deny I got a lot of fun from GW products over the years when I played their games, and a lot of my fellow dakka members still enjoy GW products and I respect that, but I do wonder where the profits are coming from, because a lot of their prices are still crazy IMO.
GW PVA glue is £5 for 120ml. I get 568ml for £2 from the budget art store.
GW plastic glue is £4 for 0.7 fl oz. I buy Revell poly cement, also the same amount, for £2.20 from the same art store.
GW superglue is £5.25. I get 10 tubes for £1 from poundland, and it's not bad. Just make sure the area is well ventilated before using it
And of course, Vallejo textured paint and brush on primer is cheaper and bigger than their GW counter-parts, and so on and so on....
And the mini prices are even worse. A box of Genestealer hybrids is £50 for 15 models
and a box of bolt action minis is £25 for 30 minis...
As always, each to their own, but these GW prices are crazy to my eyes.
When was the last time you went into a 'Bolt Action' store to have a game and do some hobbying, or used the 'Bolt Action' You Tube site for hobby tips, etc., etc., etc.? It's not really just as simple as an apples-to-apples comparison, is it?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I won't deny I got a lot of fun from GW products over the years when I played their games, and a lot of my fellow dakka members still enjoy GW products and I respect that, but I do wonder where the profits are coming from, because a lot of their prices are still crazy IMO.
GW PVA glue is £5 for 120ml. I get 568ml for £2 from the budget art store.
GW plastic glue is £4 for 0.7 fl oz. I buy Revell poly cement, also the same amount, for £2.20 from the same art store.
GW superglue is £5.25. I get 10 tubes for £1 from poundland, and it's not bad. Just make sure the area is well ventilated before using it
And of course, Vallejo textured paint and brush on primer is cheaper and bigger than their GW counter-parts, and so on and so on....
And the mini prices are even worse. A box of Genestealer hybrids is £50 for 15 models
and a box of bolt action minis is £25 for 30 minis...
As always, each to their own, but these GW prices are crazy to my eyes.
When was the last time you went into a 'Bolt Action' store to have a game and do some hobbying, or used the 'Bolt Action' You Tube site for hobby tips, etc., etc., etc.? It's not really just as simple as an apples-to-apples comparison, is it?
Warlord Games have a store (just the one mind). Warlord Games have a Youtube channel. Of course there is no direct comparison, but its obvious why people make it.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I won't deny I got a lot of fun from GW products over the years when I played their games, and a lot of my fellow dakka members still enjoy GW products and I respect that, but I do wonder where the profits are coming from, because a lot of their prices are still crazy IMO.
GW PVA glue is £5 for 120ml. I get 568ml for £2 from the budget art store.
GW plastic glue is £4 for 0.7 fl oz. I buy Revell poly cement, also the same amount, for £2.20 from the same art store.
GW superglue is £5.25. I get 10 tubes for £1 from poundland, and it's not bad. Just make sure the area is well ventilated before using it
And of course, Vallejo textured paint and brush on primer is cheaper and bigger than their GW counter-parts, and so on and so on....
And the mini prices are even worse. A box of Genestealer hybrids is £50 for 15 models
and a box of bolt action minis is £25 for 30 minis...
As always, each to their own, but these GW prices are crazy to my eyes.
When was the last time you went into a 'Bolt Action' store to have a game and do some hobbying, or used the 'Bolt Action' You Tube site for hobby tips, etc., etc., etc.? It's not really just as simple as an apples-to-apples comparison, is it?
Yep.
If a company makes operational decisions such as maintaining a chain of retail stores that obligates it to charge significantly more than another competitor that doesn't, that has absolutely zero bearing on the validity of the comparison. The only thing up for debate is whether it's a good idea or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 14:59:01
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I won't deny I got a lot of fun from GW products over the years when I played their games, and a lot of my fellow dakka members still enjoy GW products and I respect that, but I do wonder where the profits are coming from, because a lot of their prices are still crazy IMO.
GW PVA glue is £5 for 120ml. I get 568ml for £2 from the budget art store.
GW plastic glue is £4 for 0.7 fl oz. I buy Revell poly cement, also the same amount, for £2.20 from the same art store.
GW superglue is £5.25. I get 10 tubes for £1 from poundland, and it's not bad. Just make sure the area is well ventilated before using it
And of course, Vallejo textured paint and brush on primer is cheaper and bigger than their GW counter-parts, and so on and so on....
And the mini prices are even worse. A box of Genestealer hybrids is £50 for 15 models
and a box of bolt action minis is £25 for 30 minis...
As always, each to their own, but these GW prices are crazy to my eyes.
When was the last time you went into a 'Bolt Action' store to have a game and do some hobbying, or used the 'Bolt Action' You Tube site for hobby tips, etc., etc., etc.? It's not really just as simple as an apples-to-apples comparison, is it?
Yep.
If a company makes operational decisions such as maintaining a chain of retail stores that obligates it to charge significantly more than another competitor that doesn't, that has absolutely zero bearing on the validity of the comparison. The only thing up for debate is whether it's a good idea or not.
Huh? What are you talking about, it's absolutely axiomatic to the comparison!
It's not for me to tell people how they should spend their money, and there are some good points above, but people making the retail comparison between GW and its competitors are forgetting one important point:
that art store I bought the PVA glue from is also part of a retail chain with employee wages to pay, business tax, utilities, etc etc
and their PVA glue is still cheaper than GW's, and you still get more...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Rayvon wrote:Aye, not everyone cares about getting the most out of their pound notes, there are plenty of people that prefer convenience over value for money and would rather get everything in a one stop shop rather than scour different outlets for different hobby equipment.
I used to think anyone who bought GW's branded hobby equipment was ... let's say inefficient. Then I had a run of special orders through local FLGSs go wrong. And while it wasn't for hobby equipment, it did cause me to reach the point that my number one concern is now whether or not something is in stock. I'll even pay above retail if I get what I want for a project without delays. I am now the opposite of a bargain hunter. I'm now the guy who sees something for a project in stock and then pays for the upgraded shipping.
So while they are paying way more than if they went elsewhere for the hobby equipment, I no longer think they are doing something against their own interest. People who buy GW's glues, clippers, brushes etc., are simply getting what they want in the most convenient mode possible.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: It's not for me to tell people how they should spend their money, and there are some good points above, but people making the retail comparison between GW and its competitors are forgetting one important point:
that art store I bought the PVA glue from is also part of a retail chain with employee wages to pay, business tax, utilities, etc etc
and their PVA glue is still cheaper than GW's, and you still get more...
So what is it about GW and how it does business that allows GW to sell their PVA at the price they do and sell enough that they can keep doing it?
Every single retailer, if they are smart, has certain products where the margins are just amazing. This helps average things out when other products have margins that are less great. I promise that if you look around that art store you'll find something where their margins are just as good as GW's on the PVA. Where if you went somewhere else you'd find a lower price to the same degree as the PVA glue difference between them and GW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 15:20:34
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I won't deny I got a lot of fun from GW products over the years when I played their games, and a lot of my fellow dakka members still enjoy GW products and I respect that, but I do wonder where the profits are coming from, because a lot of their prices are still crazy IMO.
GW PVA glue is £5 for 120ml. I get 568ml for £2 from the budget art store.
GW plastic glue is £4 for 0.7 fl oz. I buy Revell poly cement, also the same amount, for £2.20 from the same art store.
GW superglue is £5.25. I get 10 tubes for £1 from poundland, and it's not bad. Just make sure the area is well ventilated before using it
And of course, Vallejo textured paint and brush on primer is cheaper and bigger than their GW counter-parts, and so on and so on....
And the mini prices are even worse. A box of Genestealer hybrids is £50 for 15 models
and a box of bolt action minis is £25 for 30 minis...
As always, each to their own, but these GW prices are crazy to my eyes.
When was the last time you went into a 'Bolt Action' store to have a game and do some hobbying, or used the 'Bolt Action' You Tube site for hobby tips, etc., etc., etc.? It's not really just as simple as an apples-to-apples comparison, is it?
Warlord Games have a store (just the one mind). Warlord Games have a Youtube channel. Of course there is no direct comparison, but its obvious why people make it.
Yep, it's the same recycled gripe I've heard for 15 years and over those years, innumerable miniature manufacturers have come and gone but GW is still around. Corporate missteps notwithstanding, I think it's obvious that maybe there's something to promoting the hobby the way they do. Their longevity and latest FY results kind of bears that out.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/26 15:23:49
Consider Royal Tunbridge Wells. It's been a while since Ballards, Ballards 2 and EM Models all shut down. That leaves GW as the sole dedicated model shop in town - unless you fancy battling your way to the industrial estate to visit Hobbycraft.
So the convenience is there for me. It's bad enough having to schlep back up the shop when I forget I needed glue - and I only live at the other end of town. If I lived further away (lots of very quaint villages, infested with the middle class), that's a right pain - especially if I need to go elsewhere to get them. Such as the aforementioned Hobbycraft. On the industrial estate. The industrial estate nobody goes anywhere near if they can possibly avoid it due to a terrible road layout, and cretins that don't understand how to use roundabouts.
Same with paints and brushes. Yes, higher end brushes are out there. And that's great for pros. But for beginners and reluctant painters like myself, GW's will do well enough. The quality is decent, if not quite up the price tag. But there's my brush right there. The one I need. I'll grab that, rather than wander round to the snooty mcsnootsnoot art shop round the corner which stocks Windsor and Newton.
We live in a society hooked on convenience. GW provide that.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
BigWaaagh wrote: Yep, it's the same recycled gripe I've heard for 15 years and over those years, innumerable miniature manufacturers have come and gone but GW is still around. Corporate missteps notwithstanding, maybe there's something to promoting the hobby the way they do? Their longevity and latest FY results kind of bear that out.
I think the biggest problem of the years following the LOTR boom and then through Mark Wells' departure was the neglect of their proven customer recruitment model. GW actively pursued lower volumes at higher margins. They reduced store hours. They increased barriers to entry. They sold less product to less people at higher prices. And when a hobby works as much as it does with word of mouth and people getting their friends into it, this has an effect like compound interest. When you look at the rate of price increases and the decline of revenue during that period, it's apparent GW gave away nearly half their market share. It was a price of Kirby's priorities of margins uber alles.
The latest FY results being so much better than previous results doesn't really bear out much at all about GW still being around. The change in results is from things changing with GW. Imagine where GW would be if they didn't, for a decade, drive away customers and cede massive chunks of the market to competitors? And those competitors are not an endless sea of companies that popped up and faded away. They're now established companies in the market place. Many of whom grew and thrived doing not what GW did for a solid decade, but what GW showed to work during their period of greatest growth. Warlord, for example, is full of ex-GW people who were with the company when they grew from a UK based importer of D&D to a world wide company.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 15:38:13
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
Consider Royal Tunbridge Wells. It's been a while since Ballards, Ballards 2 and EM Models all shut down. That leaves GW as the sole dedicated model shop in town - unless you fancy battling your way to the industrial estate to visit Hobbycraft.
So the convenience is there for me. It's bad enough having to schlep back up the shop when I forget I needed glue - and I only live at the other end of town. If I lived further away (lots of very quaint villages, infested with the middle class), that's a right pain - especially if I need to go elsewhere to get them. Such as the aforementioned Hobbycraft. On the industrial estate. The industrial estate nobody goes anywhere near if they can possibly avoid it due to a terrible road layout, and cretins that don't understand how to use roundabouts.
Same with paints and brushes. Yes, higher end brushes are out there. And that's great for pros. But for beginners and reluctant painters like myself, GW's will do well enough. The quality is decent, if not quite up the price tag. But there's my brush right there. The one I need. I'll grab that, rather than wander round to the snooty mcsnootsnoot art shop round the corner which stocks Windsor and Newton.
We live in a society hooked on convenience. GW provide that.
Convenience? There is this thing called the internet.
You can buy things from it, and if you have something called a letterbox, someone will come along and put that thing through it for you. Even from the other side of the world.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 15:43:25
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I won't deny I got a lot of fun from GW products over the years when I played their games, and a lot of my fellow dakka members still enjoy GW products and I respect that, but I do wonder where the profits are coming from, because a lot of their prices are still crazy IMO.
GW PVA glue is £5 for 120ml. I get 568ml for £2 from the budget art store.
GW plastic glue is £4 for 0.7 fl oz. I buy Revell poly cement, also the same amount, for £2.20 from the same art store.
GW superglue is £5.25. I get 10 tubes for £1 from poundland, and it's not bad. Just make sure the area is well ventilated before using it
And of course, Vallejo textured paint and brush on primer is cheaper and bigger than their GW counter-parts, and so on and so on....
And the mini prices are even worse. A box of Genestealer hybrids is £50 for 15 models
and a box of bolt action minis is £25 for 30 minis...
As always, each to their own, but these GW prices are crazy to my eyes.
When was the last time you went into a 'Bolt Action' store to have a game and do some hobbying, or used the 'Bolt Action' You Tube site for hobby tips, etc., etc., etc.? It's not really just as simple as an apples-to-apples comparison, is it?
Yep.
If a company makes operational decisions such as maintaining a chain of retail stores that obligates it to charge significantly more than another competitor that doesn't, that has absolutely zero bearing on the validity of the comparison. The only thing up for debate is whether it's a good idea or not.
Huh? What are you talking about, it's absolutely axiomatic to the comparison!
Not as a consumer it isn't. If I'm comparing the price of BA minis to 40K minis, I'm seeing that the Bolt Action ones are a lot less. I'm not going to then conduct a detailed research project into the ins and outs of each company's financial liabilities in order to determine the reasons that may or may not explain the difference. Outside of subjective criteria, one company is offering plastic wargaming models at a significantly lower price than the other with no notable reason why they should. Citing things that one company has chosen to obligate itself to pay for as some point of difference when, at the end of the day, they're both companies offering ~30mm hard plastic wargaming models, as a reason that it's not a valid comparison is bordering on apologism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 15:45:01
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
BigWaaagh wrote: Yep, it's the same recycled gripe I've heard for 15 years and over those years, innumerable miniature manufacturers have come and gone but GW is still around. Corporate missteps notwithstanding, maybe there's something to promoting the hobby the way they do? Their longevity and latest FY results kind of bear that out.
I think the biggest problem of the years following the LOTR boom and then through Mark Wells' departure was the neglect of their proven customer recruitment model. GW actively pursued lower volumes at higher margins. They reduced store hours. They increased barriers to entry. They sold less product to less people at higher prices. And when a hobby works as much as it does with word of mouth and people getting their friends into it, this has an effect like compound interest. When you look at the rate of price increases and the decline of revenue during that period, it's apparent GW gave away nearly half their market share. It was a price of Kirby's priorities of margins uber alles.
The latest FY results being so much better than previous results doesn't really bear out much at all about GW still being around. The change in results is from things changing with GW. Imagine where GW would be if they didn't, for a decade, drive away customers and cede massive chunks of the market to competitors? And those competitors are not an endless sea of companies that popped up and faded away. They're now established companies in the market place. Many of whom grew and thrived doing not what GW did for a solid decade, but what GW showed to work during their period of greatest growth. Warlord, for example, is full of ex-GW people who were with the company when they grew from a UK based importer of D&D to a world wide company.
Even if the 'new' GW had been around these past 15 years, its competitors would still grab a share of the market, because games like X-Wing boast bigger and better IP than GW.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I won't deny I got a lot of fun from GW products over the years when I played their games, and a lot of my fellow dakka members still enjoy GW products and I respect that, but I do wonder where the profits are coming from, because a lot of their prices are still crazy IMO.
GW PVA glue is £5 for 120ml. I get 568ml for £2 from the budget art store.
GW plastic glue is £4 for 0.7 fl oz. I buy Revell poly cement, also the same amount, for £2.20 from the same art store.
GW superglue is £5.25. I get 10 tubes for £1 from poundland, and it's not bad. Just make sure the area is well ventilated before using it
And of course, Vallejo textured paint and brush on primer is cheaper and bigger than their GW counter-parts, and so on and so on....
And the mini prices are even worse. A box of Genestealer hybrids is £50 for 15 models
and a box of bolt action minis is £25 for 30 minis...
As always, each to their own, but these GW prices are crazy to my eyes.
When was the last time you went into a 'Bolt Action' store to have a game and do some hobbying, or used the 'Bolt Action' You Tube site for hobby tips, etc., etc., etc.? It's not really just as simple as an apples-to-apples comparison, is it?
Warlord Games have a store (just the one mind). Warlord Games have a Youtube channel. Of course there is no direct comparison, but its obvious why people make it.
Yep, it's the same recycled gripe I've heard for 15 years and over those years, innumerable miniature manufacturers have come and gone but GW is still around. Corporate missteps notwithstanding, I think it's obvious that maybe there's something to promoting the hobby the way they do. Their longevity and latest FY results kind of bears that out.
Don't mistake my gripes with GW pricing on some items as an ecuse for anti-GW bashing. The Space Hulk remake of a few years ago is one of the finest hobby products I have ever purchased
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 15:46:40
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
BigWaaagh wrote: Yep, it's the same recycled gripe I've heard for 15 years and over those years, innumerable miniature manufacturers have come and gone but GW is still around. Corporate missteps notwithstanding, maybe there's something to promoting the hobby the way they do? Their longevity and latest FY results kind of bear that out.
I think the biggest problem of the years following the LOTR boom and then through Mark Wells' departure was the neglect of their proven customer recruitment model. GW actively pursued lower volumes at higher margins. They reduced store hours. They increased barriers to entry. They sold less product to less people at higher prices. And when a hobby works as much as it does with word of mouth and people getting their friends into it, this has an effect like compound interest. When you look at the rate of price increases and the decline of revenue during that period, it's apparent GW gave away nearly half their market share. It was a price of Kirby's priorities of margins uber alles.
The latest FY results being so much better than previous results doesn't really bear out much at all about GW still being around. The change in results is from things changing with GW. Imagine where GW would be if they didn't, for a decade, drive away customers and cede massive chunks of the market to competitors? And those competitors are not an endless sea of companies that popped up and faded away. They're now established companies in the market place. Many of whom grew and thrived doing not what GW did for a solid decade, but what GW showed to work during their period of greatest growth. Warlord, for example, is full of ex-GW people who were with the company when they grew from a UK based importer of D&D to a world wide company.
And to my point, through all that, they're still around as countless others drop by the wayside. I know the guys at Warlord personally and with relation to GW, they're still pups. GW has survived and flourished through the strategic missteps and has a longevity nearly unparalleled in the space. With regards to the topic and their model, it's shown the test of time and that absolutely bears out the thesis.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 15:53:06
Consider Royal Tunbridge Wells. It's been a while since Ballards, Ballards 2 and EM Models all shut down. That leaves GW as the sole dedicated model shop in town - unless you fancy battling your way to the industrial estate to visit Hobbycraft.
So the convenience is there for me. It's bad enough having to schlep back up the shop when I forget I needed glue - and I only live at the other end of town. If I lived further away (lots of very quaint villages, infested with the middle class), that's a right pain - especially if I need to go elsewhere to get them. Such as the aforementioned Hobbycraft. On the industrial estate. The industrial estate nobody goes anywhere near if they can possibly avoid it due to a terrible road layout, and cretins that don't understand how to use roundabouts.
Same with paints and brushes. Yes, higher end brushes are out there. And that's great for pros. But for beginners and reluctant painters like myself, GW's will do well enough. The quality is decent, if not quite up the price tag. But there's my brush right there. The one I need. I'll grab that, rather than wander round to the snooty mcsnootsnoot art shop round the corner which stocks Windsor and Newton.
We live in a society hooked on convenience. GW provide that.
Convenience? There is this thing called the internet.
You can buy things from it, and if you have something called a letterbox, someone will come along and put that thing through it for you. Even from the other side of the world.
Doesn't help if I need the glue now though!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:09:18
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Consider Royal Tunbridge Wells. It's been a while since Ballards, Ballards 2 and EM Models all shut down. That leaves GW as the sole dedicated model shop in town - unless you fancy battling your way to the industrial estate to visit Hobbycraft.
So the convenience is there for me. It's bad enough having to schlep back up the shop when I forget I needed glue - and I only live at the other end of town. If I lived further away (lots of very quaint villages, infested with the middle class), that's a right pain - especially if I need to go elsewhere to get them. Such as the aforementioned Hobbycraft. On the industrial estate. The industrial estate nobody goes anywhere near if they can possibly avoid it due to a terrible road layout, and cretins that don't understand how to use roundabouts.
Same with paints and brushes. Yes, higher end brushes are out there. And that's great for pros. But for beginners and reluctant painters like myself, GW's will do well enough. The quality is decent, if not quite up the price tag. But there's my brush right there. The one I need. I'll grab that, rather than wander round to the snooty mcsnootsnoot art shop round the corner which stocks Windsor and Newton.
We live in a society hooked on convenience. GW provide that.
Doesn't help if I need the glue now though!
Convenience? There is this thing called the internet.
You can buy things from it, and if you have something called a letterbox, someone will come along and put that thing through it for you. Even from the other side of the world.
I know, I know. I jest with you
In saying that, in times past, I've bought glue from corner shops and even the local petrol station when it's been an emergency.
Not something I'd recommend.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I won't deny I got a lot of fun from GW products over the years when I played their games, and a lot of my fellow dakka members still enjoy GW products and I respect that, but I do wonder where the profits are coming from, because a lot of their prices are still crazy IMO.
GW PVA glue is £5 for 120ml. I get 568ml for £2 from the budget art store.
GW plastic glue is £4 for 0.7 fl oz. I buy Revell poly cement, also the same amount, for £2.20 from the same art store.
GW superglue is £5.25. I get 10 tubes for £1 from poundland, and it's not bad. Just make sure the area is well ventilated before using it
And of course, Vallejo textured paint and brush on primer is cheaper and bigger than their GW counter-parts, and so on and so on....
And the mini prices are even worse. A box of Genestealer hybrids is £50 for 15 models
and a box of bolt action minis is £25 for 30 minis...
As always, each to their own, but these GW prices are crazy to my eyes.
When was the last time you went into a 'Bolt Action' store to have a game and do some hobbying, or used the 'Bolt Action' You Tube site for hobby tips, etc., etc., etc.? It's not really just as simple as an apples-to-apples comparison, is it?
Yep.
If a company makes operational decisions such as maintaining a chain of retail stores that obligates it to charge significantly more than another competitor that doesn't, that has absolutely zero bearing on the validity of the comparison. The only thing up for debate is whether it's a good idea or not.
Huh? What are you talking about, it's absolutely axiomatic to the comparison!
Not as a consumer it isn't. If I'm comparing the price of BA minis to 40K minis, I'm seeing that the Bolt Action ones are a lot less. I'm not going to then conduct a detailed research project into the ins and outs of each company's financial liabilities in order to determine the reasons that may or may not explain the difference. Outside of subjective criteria, one company is offering plastic wargaming models at a significantly lower price than the other with no notable reason why they should. Citing things that one company has chosen to obligate itself to pay for as some point of difference when, at the end of the day, they're both companies offering ~30mm hard plastic wargaming models, as a reason that it's not a valid comparison is bordering on apologism.
Oh, please. You're actually trying to paint GW's "product" as just a miniature and that's where you're argument is just flat out wrong. There's always been a wholistic offering from recruitment, i.e. GW Hobby Centers ensuring longevity of the product all the way to hobby support, i.e. GW Hobby Centers, You Tube channel, White Dwarf, Warhammer World that absolutely must be figured into the equation. Those "things" that you're trying to claim is irrelevant as a consumer are the "things" that have helped GW exist for what, 30+ years. Do some diligence on cheap miniatures and game systems that were just plopped out there inexpensively and woefully unsupported by some flash-in-the-pan miniatures/game company...there's been LOTS of them over the years that GW's been around...and you'll find that you've got one company still standing after all these years. This isn't apologism, this is fact.
And you're trying to argue that comparing two companies that sell plastic miniatures is invalid because one has chosen to run its own shops...
It's not like I didn't already address your whole "but it's GW that are still going" point at the get go..
Azreal13 wrote: The only thing up for debate is whether it's a good idea or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:15:47
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: And you're trying to argue that comparing two companies that sell plastic miniatures is invalid because one has chosen to run its own shops...
No. I'm pointing out, with relevance to my original post, that the "product" you're buying when you buy miniatures isn't...particularly in this case...a simple $ comparison when you have an understanding of the whole product being sold.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:16:17
BigWaaagh wrote:
And to my point, through all that, they're still around as countless others drop by the wayside. I know the guys at Warlord personally and with relation to GW, they're still pups. GW has survived and flourished through the strategic missteps and has a longevity nearly unparalleled in the space. With regards to the topic and their model, it's shown the test of time and that absolutely bears out the thesis.
There really isn't much of a thesis here though. They're still around so what they're doing must be working? That's it? It's sort of a tautology.
And you don't flourish through strategic misteps, at best it's despite them, not through them. And I'd argue that GW didn't flourish for a long, long time. Years have gone by where they shrank while the rest of the market grew around them. Stagnation is not flourishing. The very fact that things have improved so dramatically in the last two financial years shows that things change and it's not just GW proving they were always right by merit of still existing.
This "test of time" idea just doesn't really say anything at all given you have GW doing very different things over different periods of time.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
Azreal13 wrote: And you're trying to argue that comparing two companies that sell plastic miniatures is invalid because one has chosen to run its own shops...
No. I'm pointing out, with relevance to my original post, that the "product" you're buying when you buy miniatures isn't...particularly in this case...a simple $ comparison when you have an understanding of the whole product being sold.
Yes it is a simple £ comparison! You're just trying to argue that all the other gak that GW have chosen to load on top of that in an attempt to justify the disparity somehow invalidates the comparison to a competitor who runs a leaner model with less overhead. None of which you've cited has any value to me at all, and I know I'm not going to be the only one who doesn't game at GW or spend any time using their online resources, so whether you frame it as "GW are overpriced" or "GW force me to spend money on product I have no use for" the outcome for me as a consumer is the same.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I think he's more arguing that given the wider market, GW's approach definitely works when you see the number of former competitors that have fallen by the way side. (response was to frozenwaste)
Azreal13 wrote: And you're trying to argue that comparing two companies that sell plastic miniatures is invalid because one has chosen to run its own shops...
No. I'm pointing out, with relevance to my original post, that the "product" you're buying when you buy miniatures isn't...particularly in this case...a simple $ comparison when you have an understanding of the whole product being sold.
Yes it is a simple £ comparison! You're just trying to argue that all the other that GW have chosen to load on top of that in an attempt to justify the disparity somehow invalidates the comparison to a competitor who runs a leaner model with less overhead. None of which you've cited has any value to me at all, and I know I'm not going to be the only one who doesn't game at GW or spend any time using their online resources, so whether you frame it as "GW are overpriced" or "GW force me to spend money on product I have no use for" the outcome for me as a consumer is the same.
Hmmm. I don't agree, and I think you're argument is self defeating.
When I buy a GW product, it includes the option for me to use their models in any of their shops. It also means I get value out of their online resources in a way someone who doesn't play their systems can't.
If you don't utilise the resources they put at your disposal, that's not them. That's you. It's you, for reasons best known to yourself, choosing not to extract the maximum value out of the purchase you just made.
They're not forcing you to do anything. Nor are their products overpriced in that regard. It's you, you, you and the decision you made that's preventing you enjoying the other goodies GW offers as part and parcel of their company.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:42:25
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Or, they could not front load that cost into the retail price of the actual product they're selling and let the consumer make a choice, rather than forcing anyone who wishes to purchase an element of what they offer to be liable for it whether they want it or not.
Because if those things actually have a value, then people will pay for them right? Otherwise it means they're just a thinly veiled excuse for charging a lot more for a very similar product.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:48:25
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
So by that same rationale, a restaurant that chooses to offer seating rather than take away shouldn't factor in the cost of the table space just in case you choose to sit on the pavement to eat it, yes?
(edited because I just made not a shred of sense)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:50:50
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
It's not unheard of for a restaurant to offer different pricing for eat in and takeaway, no, if that's what you mean?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think he's more arguing that given the wider market, GW's approach definitely works when you see the number of former competitors that have fallen by the way side. (response was to frozenwaste)
Except for that's not reality. Their competitors didn't just fade away. They got entrenched and are now established in the market. And in some areas, GW has lost the top spot (X-Wing in North America). GW stagnated for years while the hobby gaming industry exploded.
This idea that because GW is still around that must prove the effectiveness of their actions is meaningless when they do very different actions and get different results. The current GW plan is very different than the post-LOTR boom Wells-Kirby plan. The recognition that margins are improved through volume rather than reducing volume is huge. It's a total departure. As is their change in customer communication. And pricing with start collecting boxes. And reducing up front costs with lower cost starter sets. They now also have an actual social media strategy. And go to major conventions. And work with podcasters and youtubers by sending them review products.
So not only did the competitors not fade away, GW isn't even doing the same thing as before. So this notion of GW still being around doesn't say anything of substance.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
Azreal13 wrote: It's not unheard of for a restaurant to offer different pricing for eat in and takeaway, no, if that's what you mean?
If you're think of McDonalds etc, that's because take-away food didn't (possibly still doesn't, but the Greggs hoo-ha makes me think otherwise) attract VAT - only eat-in.
But please, do present evidence to support that. And even if they do, other restaurants don't, and those that don't aren't obliged to discount your food just because you're insistent on sitting on the pavement instead of the restaurant in this example.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think he's more arguing that given the wider market, GW's approach definitely works when you see the number of former competitors that have fallen by the way side. (response was to frozenwaste)
Except for that's not reality. Their competitors didn't just fade away. They got entrenched and are now established in the market. And in some areas, GW has lost the top spot (X-Wing in North America). GW stagnated for years while the hobby gaming industry exploded.
This idea that because GW is still around that must prove the effectiveness of their actions is meaningless when they do very different actions and get different results. The current GW plan is very different than the post-LOTR boom Wells-Kirby plan. The recognition that margins are improved through volume rather than reducing volume is huge. It's a total departure. As is their change in customer communication. And pricing with start collecting boxes. And reducing up front costs with lower cost starter sets. They now also have an actual social media strategy. And go to major conventions. And work with podcasters and youtubers by sending them review products.
So not only did the competitors not fade away, GW isn't even doing the same thing as before. So this notion of GW still being around doesn't say anything of substance.
Some competitors kept pace. But very far from all. Anyone remember Void or Vore? Rackham anyone?
As for X-Wing - remember, the poll that produced that figure doesn't have GW's own figures included, as they've declined to take part. When we look at the percentage of GW's North Americans sales that are direct or Own Store, that's a significant number of sales not being accounted for.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:56:17
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Azreal13 wrote: Or, they could not front load that cost into the retail price of the actual product they're selling and let the consumer make a choice, rather than forcing anyone who wishes to purchase an element of what they offer to be liable for it whether they want it or not.
Because if those things actually have a value, then people will pay for them right? Otherwise it means they're just a thinly veiled excuse for charging a lot more for a very similar product.
It's also important to note that their trade sales are way, way more efficient than their retail operation. Even bringing in less money per product (the trade accounts get a wholesale price so they can resell the product at a profit) trade sales drastically outperform their retail operation. For years, GW's retail operation was costing them more than it was bringing in.
And this notion that part of GW's prices cover things like the Warhammer TV painting video? It's the other way around. That's marketing. People don't pay for GW's miniatures so they can have the painting videos. The painting videos are there to induce purchases.
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Some competitors kept pace. But very far from all. Anyone remember Void or Vore? Rackham anyone?
You had to go really far back for those examples, didn't you? This argument was valid during that time, when there were endless companies trying and failing. Now we have many many companies that have established themselves.
As for X-Wing - remember, the poll that produced that figure doesn't have GW's own figures included, as they've declined to take part.
This idea that ICv2 is doing an industry survey and then not counting GW's own published numbers when they can just open up the PDF and read them is probably off the mark.
When we look at the percentage of GW's North Americans sales that are direct or Own Store, that's a significant number of sales not being accounted for.
Yeah... there's no way they could have just read the same numbers we did and added them in. We don't actually know that the market analysis excluded GW's own numbers do we? And since they are just right there to read, it seems odd to exclude them, doesn't it? I get that people might not want X-Wing to be outselling 40k in North America, but it probably is.
I expect though that 40k will retake the top spot in the survey period covering this summer. 8th is probably going to accomplish that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 17:07:48
Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better.
