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This is a question I'm asking because I think there is very few fluff on this tomy knowledge.

Le'ts imagine we're on a random world which has been trying to rebel against the rule of the Imperium. It is quite a big world, with powerful factories, many resources and a huge population. The rebellion has been pretty violent, with massive swathes of inhabitants rising to take the Imperial gouvernor over. The thing becomes a civil war, and then a system-scale and finally, a conflict big enough to engage outside Imperial Forces like foreign IG regiments. A long battle is fought and the very core of the rebellion is finally reconquered by loyalists. Rebel forces are terminated and leaders are executed by the Adeptus Terra. And then what?

Given the fact it's a pretty nasty infestation (Genestealers, Chaos, and so on...), you know that many rebels / infected / traitors are still hiding in the population. But the world is conquered and sufficiently worth to not be exterminatus-ed. Do you think the Imperial authority would engage its troops in gratuitous repression against the masses, a la WW2 Germany against Resistances? Or would they just do something similar to our counter-insurgency by limiting (kind of) collateral damage and focusing on targets?

Most of all, do you think Imperial commanders (an Lord Militant, an Admiral, A SM Captain or an Inquisitor) would use regular Guardsmen to carry on massacres and execution? Is it what the Guard usually do after such kind of battle or do they let the dirty work to other units like Penal legion, Arbites or whatever? And what about the enemy prisoners? Killed while standing or something else?

TLDR : who would actually carry on the repression (we all know there would be one), how and with which agents? Would Imperial Guardsmen be used as death squads?

The Imperium is pretty much Nazi Germany in spess.

The Imperial Guardsmen and Arbites are probably held back to train a new PDF (or form it) to repress the populace with extreme prejudice.

Easily and without question.

The guardsmen assigned to your hypothetical world would not be recruited locally, and would almost certainly not even be from the same star system as the population. Their orders would be clear to keep the populace in line and disobedience is an instant execution from the attached Commissars.

You seem to think that the Imperium is a happy place where oppression doesn't happen. You are a naive, sweet summer child. The worst oppression in our world is just Tuesday for the standard Imperial citizen.

You are a naive, sweet summer child

Above all, I don't remember ever seeing an example of Guardsmen putting people against the wall and shooting them right away.

I don't have read a single 40k novel but I know my fluff wuite well so, I would have been interested to see if bloody repression has been described somewhere with precision. Training PDF to regain control is quite different than doing Oradour s/ Glane on a Hive city I guess.

Somebody's got to do all that oppressing, and the Guard have the manpower to do it well.

IIRC, albiet in older fluff, the basic MO of the guard was “Muster, head to your target, pacify and garrison”

Once the battle is over, that’s just the first step. The next step is to make sure the planet can produce it’s tithes, and keep running smoothly. If not, the next ships in orbit are not going to be reinforcements, but replacements.

The IoM is a pretty harsh and draconian place. While I’m sure there is a lot of latitude and preferences to how peace is accomplished and maintained, I suspect very little of it is going to be friendly.

While not quite repression in the way you are defining it, I believe there is a little anecdote in the current AM codex that goes along the lines of the Death Korps of Krieg setting up to respond to a rebellion in a hive city.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Siege_of_Derondii

The telling quote is:

"Krieg soldiers deployed in the towering mountains that overlook the primary Hive. Several artillery and siege companies begin to bombard the city spires and both rebels and inhabitants were mercilessly gunned down as they tred to break out from the besieged city. After five years of relentless shelling, the rebels offered their unconditional surrender to the Imperium; they were ignored, and the shelling continued for another five years. All signs of life in the hive ceased after just three, but the bombardment still continued for another two years."

If there is genestealer involved and or chaos cult, you bet there will be inquisitor and some deathwatch try to wipe them out with any means necessary. Perhaps even assassins to kill off the cult leaders. Everyday citizens will be screened for infection if possible, if it get out of hand, the planet will be exterminatus. The IG will follow orders, perhaps even know why they have to mass killing the population to wipe out the infestation.

In the case of rebellion, all people who supported the rebellion are likely to be killed. Once a traitor, always a traitor. In many cases, the entire population will be killed regardless of whether they supported or opposed the rebellion. After all, it may be more economical to just ship in a new population than it is to sort out the mess that is the old. It is important to remember that in the eyes of the Inquisition, there exists no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt. (those who opposed the rebellion failed to prevent it, so that makes them traitors too, right?)
The question of what to do with prisoners would probably not even come up. The Imperium takes no prisoners (unless it needs some vital intelligence from them).

The Imperial Guard would most certainly be used for such an operation, as it is the only way to get the required manpower. The operation would in many cases likely be carried out by the same regiments that supressed the rebellion. In other cases they might prefer to ship in fresh IG forces in case any of the forces that fought on the world formed attachements to it or the population (imagine it from a guardsman's pov, one moment they are fighting to liberate people from evil rebels, the next moment they have to kill the people they just finally liberated after bringing so many sacrifices.)

It may also be that the Imperium would rather not waste its most effective combat regiments on cleansing duty. So maybe the IG gets shipped off to a new warzone immediately and the cleansing is instead carried out by second-rate troops such as PDF or Penal regiments. It probably depends on the available regiments in question and on the demand for forces on other fronts.

@curran12

Thanks for sharing, I was not aware of that. Good illustration on how people should not mess with the Imperium and their DKoK. Perhaps if every human knew about the Kriegers, peace would be easier to maintain.

@Big Mac @Nevelon @Iron Captain

IG is indeed the kind of force that would fit for such operations, it is just that it is rarely described as doing this kind of work. We usually see them as a force of normal men and women thrown in the grinder with mere flashlights. But it would be interesting to treat such aspects: perhaps not all guardsmen would kill the people they have just liberated, while others would do it without question.

GW should emphasizes more on this, it would make the Guard dirtier and complex, wouldn't it?

Lol how would you expect military commanders in a grim dark future to react to treason / mutiny : P

There is a ton of fluff on this. Almost any novel about the IoM handles this sort off stuff.

There going to most likely deploy guard from off world. No attachments. They will follow orders and opress them as ordered.

Locals would not. The off world will. Ok would. Yeah orders but decided loyalty and all.

You also forget that a normal guardsman only knows what their superiors tell them. Even the most mundane civil unrest would see propoganda and upper echelon "orders" turn it into the nastiest heretical rebellion to prevent the pacifying force having second thoughts.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
You also forget that a normal guardsman only knows what their superiors tell them. Even the most mundane civil unrest would see propoganda and upper echelon "orders" turn it into the nastiest heretical rebellion to prevent the pacifying force having second thoughts.

That and the Commissar aiming his bolt pistol at the back of your head. "if you will not serve in combat, you will serve on the firing line!"

Depends on the guard forces. Someone like gaunt would try to be as reasonable as possible, but most Veteran officers/troops would know from experience that mercy will only make it worse. There are probably some incredibly merciless regiments out there that specialize in such pacification. Another possible solution for a planet under a normal non-chaos revolt would be to conscript most of the able-bodied/potential troublemakers and send them off to die somewhere else as a makeshift penal legion. That's how my personal regiment started.

If there are genestealers/chaos though, all niceties are off. Even Cain (HotI) shot some troops on the slightest chance that they might be infected, no one would have any compunction dealing with civilians in that manner.

Without a doubt.

IG troops are NEVER fielded on their home planets where the regiments were raised for this reason.

The PDF forces serve that purpose for "home guard", and it is these who are most often going to be whom Imperial forces come up against in the case of insurrections/revolts.

The imperium deals with dissent in only one way. They end it. If you aren't with them, you are against them, and that can not be countenanced. Revolts are put down harshly.

The most-often-fought enemy of the IG is other humans, from rebellious worlds and such.

Of course!

While there maybe some paragons of virtue in the Imperium the vast majority are examples of pretty much the worst mankind can be.

Wholesale massacres, repression, torture and just about everything else that we think of today as "against the rules" of war is everyday practise in the Grimdark

Unfortunately, owing to the populist nature of 40k fiction, while we have sweeping background statements such as the printed-in-every-book line; To live in the Imperium is to live in the bloodiest regime imaginable, when it comes time for authors to write books about specific characters, they go and make them all maverick and heroic and 'not like a normal commissar' so they can write stories of goodies and baddies.

That said, there's a scene of a line-up-and-execute in Redemption Corps.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Unfortunately, owing to the populist nature of 40k fiction, while we have sweeping background statements such as the printed-in-every-book line; To live in the Imperium is to live in the bloodiest regime imaginable, when it comes time for authors to write books about specific characters, they go and make them all maverick and heroic and 'not like a normal commissar' so they can write stories of goodies and baddies.

That said, there's a scene of a line-up-and-execute in Redemption Corps.

This is true, and possibly misleads people into thinking that cold-blooded regiments like the Krieg are the irregular. Most veterans would be absolutely merciless in suppressing civilians, as I would imagine they're too broken by their previous campaigns to take any chances.
I guess the biggest divide between Grimdark and the average human is how they're actions are portrayed at a command level. Yes, most Imperial commanders tend to be either corrupt or incompetent, but they understand more of how the galaxy is. To a regular guardsman/officer/Gaunt-style figure, the little bits of humanity is what's keeping them sane.
We, as omnipotent viewers, know how messed up the universe is more than any normal humans in it. Higher levels of command and veterans have seen enough to know mercy is just asking for trouble, but newer/more idealistic forces are still trying to hang on to their humanity and haven't seen as much yet.

Finally, who wants to read a book where the Commissar is a complete dick, kills the main character and his quirky squad, and gets a medal for it? Bit of an off-putting premise. I'd rather read about a Commissar who's either idealistic (Gaunt), reasonable for whatever reason (Cain, Hark, Yarrick), or is an utter dick at times but manages to command the troops respect with sheer balls (dunno any examples off the top of my head).

Unfortunately, owing to the populist nature of 40k fiction, while we have sweeping background statements such as the printed-in-every-book line; To live in the Imperium is to live in the bloodiest regime imaginable, when it comes time for authors to write books about specific characters, they go and make them all maverick and heroic and 'not like a normal commissar' so they can write stories of goodies and baddies.

You have put words on what I thought. Most GW material is loudly claiming how hard it is to live and fight in the 41st Millenium, but there are actually few examples of such violences. As TheWanderer said, it is common knowledge that the Imperium would use any dirty mean to enforce its authority, but when it comes to describing what actually happen, GW does not want to get damp.

I personally like when the setting is bloody and merciless. I don't want exhaustive descriptions of exactions and butchery porn, just true grimdarkness. Sometimes, I even limit myself in the fluff I write because I feel too many "shocking" things (I mean massacres, repression description of soldiers being sometimes nothing more than criminals) would deter people from reading it. One always tend to think you are the army you play isn't it?

Do you think GW and related material makers should emphasizes on this, or it would be too sick / sensible ?

Yes, most Imperial commanders tend to be either corrupt or incompetent, but they understand more of how the galaxy is

Not really sure about this, but it is not the topic

Well, even the soldiers and policemen who are raised in today's democracies rarely have problems with suppressing other or their own peoples. Do you really think this attitude changes when people are raised up in a ruthless decaying dictatorship and sent to a world which they are told about that it's filled with mutants, subhumans, heretics and everything else they've been told that is evil their whole life?

 jhe90 wrote:
There going to most likely deploy guard from off world. No attachments. They will follow orders and opress them as ordered.

Locals would not. The off world will. Ok would. Yeah orders but decided loyalty and all.

Precisely. Guard are deployed off world for exactly this reason.

In Cain's first action with his reformed Valhallan regiment, they are sent to Gravalax to quell anti imperial sentiment.
Cain explicitly expects to be taking potshots at hapless dissidents rather than facing a real enemy.

One word: Kriegans. They've stopped bombarding a city a few years, after all life has been exterminated in it.

The IG would not normally quell insurrections, unless they'd already be on a planet that is in revolt. However I don't see a reason, why a Marshall from AA would not ask for help, when there'd be a huge revolt going on his beloved planet.

 =Angel= wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
There going to most likely deploy guard from off world. No attachments. They will follow orders and opress them as ordered.

Locals would not. The off world will. Ok would. Yeah orders but decided loyalty and all.

Precisely. Guard are deployed off world for exactly this reason.

In Cain's first action with his reformed Valhallan regiment, they are sent to Gravalax to quell anti imperial sentiment.
Cain explicitly expects to be taking potshots at hapless dissidents rather than facing a real enemy.

Cain's quite a good example. While the Valhallan 597th seems to pretty decent relations with the local civilian authorities in the novels, they're not above threatening to impose martial law if the locals aren't cooperative. In Cain's Last Stand, he's retired from active service, working as an instructor at a Schola Progenium. At one point, he's watching the van full of convicts being brought in for the live-fire training sessions. This isn't even on a world at war, either!

The other thing to consider is that a Guardsman's orders come down the chain of command from the general staff, and to them from the Munitorum, the High Lords of Terra and by extension the Emperor himself. To disobey is thus heresy, and the penalty for heresy is death. That goes double for any civilians unfortunate to be on the wrong side of an insurrection. Clearly their duty should have been to oppose the insurrection at all costs; the fact that they're still alive on a world occupied by Imperial forces is proof of their moral failure.

 RazgrizOne wrote:

Unfortunately, owing to the populist nature of 40k fiction, while we have sweeping background statements such as the printed-in-every-book line; To live in the Imperium is to live in the bloodiest regime imaginable, when it comes time for authors to write books about specific characters, they go and make them all maverick and heroic and 'not like a normal commissar' so they can write stories of goodies and baddies.

You have put words on what I thought. Most GW material is loudly claiming how hard it is to live and fight in the 41st Millenium, but there are actually few examples of such violences. As TheWanderer said, it is common knowledge that the Imperium would use any dirty mean to enforce its authority, but when it comes to describing what actually happen, GW does not want to get damp.

I personally like when the setting is bloody and merciless. I don't want exhaustive descriptions of exactions and butchery porn, just true grimdarkness. Sometimes, I even limit myself in the fluff I write because I feel too many "shocking" things (I mean massacres, repression description of soldiers being sometimes nothing more than criminals) would deter people from reading it. One always tend to think you are the army you play isn't it?

Do you think GW and related material makers should emphasizes on this, or it would be too sick / sensible ?

Yes, most Imperial commanders tend to be either corrupt or incompetent, but they understand more of how the galaxy is

Not really sure about this, but it is not the topic

GW are forced to walk a very tight line on their fluff becuase of the demographic they are aiming for. You cant have toooo much sex and violence in a game they want teen and pre-teenagers to play, at least not if they want mummy and daddy to buy .

But on the other hand they need to keep some of the gritty darkness for those of us of a more mature and jaded persuasion :-)

See http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/666657.page for my answer to this, replacing the Tau with humans.

whait whut the fine line of too much violence...

How would you make 40k a more violent. This setting took a look at "The event horizon" and decided that what this mode of transportation needed was more guns, techno zombie slaves, and skulls to be the preferred mode of transportation for their warrior race of super humans who love nothing more then committing genocide on other sentient species in name of their space Führer.

I challenge you to look at the parental guide of the event horizon of IMDB and don't come up with the tough that an average 40k story can do better then that.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119081/parentalguide?ref_=tt_stry_pg

 oldzoggy wrote:
whait whut the fine line of too much violence...

How would you make 40k a more violent. This setting took a look at "The event horizon" and decided that what this mode of transportation needed was more guns, techno zombie slaves, and skulls to be the preferred mode of transportation for their warrior race of super humans who love nothing more then committing genocide on other sentient species in name of their space Führer.

I challenge you to look at the parental guide of the event horizon of IMDB and don't come up with the tough that an average 40k story can do better then that.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119081/parentalguide?ref_=tt_stry_pg

I am not sure comparing horror movies to what the mainstream society views as a childrens game is working for me. People are a lot more tolerant or things in a movie where they expect it rather than in a game they would have their kids play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do get your point though!

one thing to keep in mind is that novels about repression would be really kinda boring. beyond a talented writer writing human drama f doubt etc into it (which would actually not really fit that well with 40k ) it'd be kinda dull to read about "bob with the Imperial guard, marching the dissidents of planet alpha off into a gas chamber for execution"