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Volley guns seem great on paper but they are really, REALLY terrible in practice. Salvo kills them. Just deep-struck in? (and you better have because that is why you are paying the points to use these guys over IG veterans). Enjoy 12" range with 2 shots! You are never going to get to use those tasty 4x24" shots because you are guaranteed to be dead next turn, as you just deep struck within 12 inches of a unit worth shooting volleyguns at, IE. something that will savage you in melee, even if it is just basics tacs.

Why everyone saying to use the Volleygun? It's almsot as bad as going for the grenade launcher lol.

At least the Grenade Launcher is an assault weapon so you can fire it from deepstrike to full effect. And it costs a lot less too.

ExFideFortis wrote:
Just deep-struck in? Enjoy 12" range with 2 shots!

Try positioning them at longer range. You might get a bolter or plasma round in the face, but afterwards you are at a big advantage with a Salvo weapon.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tac Squads don't have DS or MTC.

They are very different units.

No, Tactical squads just have:
Better weapons
Better WS
Better S
Better T
Better I
Better LD
Better saves
Access to the Rhino
Access to Drop pods
ATSKNF
Chapter Tactics
etc

Care to continue?

1. The bolter is NOT better than the Hellgun in lots of situations.

in most situations it is. Better S, better range, AP only matters against Sv4/3 units, and can be heavily mitigated by cover, and in a straight up fireight in the open, the two units are trading equal casualties, except the SM's have better range

2. Better S, T, and I is irrelevant to shooting squads. Plus with the FAQ on grenades they're not destroying vehicles. They're both folding to real melee units.

but the Scions autolose to the Tacs in CC which they are ostensibly kitted to fight. The Tacs can hold or at least hurt anything that isnt a dedicated CC unit, the Scions cannot.

. ATSKNF is a double edged sword. I love being swept just so I can shoot the bloody unit.

its generally far more favorable than not, and the LD difference doesnt hurt either.

Also, there's nothing really making the Rhino a better vehicle than the Taurox.

aside from being far cheaper to do the same job with the same resiliency.The Taurox Prime is painfully expensive for what it offers.

1. The extra point of strength only matters on 5+/6+ guys. And then you're both wounding any T6 Monstrous Creature on a 6+. Better range means little on BOTH units, as one can Deep Strike naturally and the other just buys Drop Pods.
2. Scions aren't equipped to attack ANYONE in melee, and I literally laughed out loud when you said Tactical Marines can hold their own. Also, if you're getting hit by Tactical Marines in melee a lot, it is because you're bad at this game.
3. You can't just say ATSKNF is favorable in most situations without naming said situations. I'd rather just lose it. I like being able to shoot things, thanks.
4. Taurox weren't meant to just get something from A to B. They're also Teleport Homers so that you don't have to buy everyone a Taurox. That's about worth the extra cost looking at them as faux Drop Pods.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[a bunch of nonsense]

Oh look, yet another Marine player falling back on the L2P crutch when confronted with Imperial Guard players asking for viable units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

ExFideFortis wrote:
Just deep-struck in? Enjoy 12" range with 2 shots!

Try positioning them at longer range. You might get a bolter or plasma round in the face, but afterwards you are at a big advantage with a Salvo weapon.

At longer range the Hellguns the rest of the models are carrying become utterly useless.

 master of ordinance wrote:
At longer range the Hellguns the rest of the models are carrying become utterly useless.

2x Volleyguns will destroy most infantry units in two turns of shooting. You don't need more damage output.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[a bunch of nonsense]

Oh look, yet another Marine player falling back on the L2P crutch when confronted with Imperial Guard players asking for viable units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

ExFideFortis wrote:
Just deep-struck in? Enjoy 12" range with 2 shots!

Try positioning them at longer range. You might get a bolter or plasma round in the face, but afterwards you are at a big advantage with a Salvo weapon.

At longer range the Hellguns the rest of the models are carrying become utterly useless.

Honestly? L2P IS a good argument if you're constantly assaulted by Tactical Marines and think they're any bit close to holding their own in melee.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[a bunch of nonsense]

Oh look, yet another Marine player falling back on the L2P crutch when confronted with Imperial Guard players asking for viable units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

ExFideFortis wrote:
Just deep-struck in? Enjoy 12" range with 2 shots!

Try positioning them at longer range. You might get a bolter or plasma round in the face, but afterwards you are at a big advantage with a Salvo weapon.

At longer range the Hellguns the rest of the models are carrying become utterly useless.

Honestly? L2P IS a good argument if you're constantly assaulted by Tactical Marines and think they're any bit close to holding their own in melee.

Compared to scions? Yeah they kinda are capable of holding their own.... obviously they're not going to be better than dedicated CC units.... because *shock horror* they're not dedicated CC units.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. The extra point of strength only matters on 5+/6+ guys.

or 2+sv targets, vehicles, or units in cover and alloows them to maintain a firelower balance against Scions which are ostensible special kitted to hunt them.

Better range means little on BOTH units, as one can Deep Strike naturally and the other just buys Drop Pods.

except the SM's can be far more aggressive with their drop in safety and its far more possible for the scions to end up out of double tap range, and it matters if either unit is engaging a target they didnt DS near.

. Scions aren't equipped to attack ANYONE in melee, and I literally laughed out loud when you said Tactical Marines can hold their own.

Did you not read where I qualified that as against non dedicated CC units, which is true

Also, if you're getting hit by Tactical Marines in melee a lot, it is because you're bad at this game.

K...we'll just avoid how its possible for things that can deep strike right amongst an opponents lines to end up in cc a turn later.

3. You can't just say ATSKNF is favorable in most situations without naming said situations. I'd rather just lose it. I like being able to shoot things, thanks.

Pretty much any situation in which Ld matters and you dont want the unit swept.

. Taurox weren't meant to just get something from A to B.

right...but theyre still absurdly expensive and fragile for it

Yoyoyo wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
At longer range the Hellguns the rest of the models are carrying become utterly useless.

2x Volleyguns will destroy most infantry units in two turns of shooting. You don't need more damage output.

For what it costs the Volleygun should be a lot better. When you consider that Grenade Launchers are actually a better choice then you really should see that Volley Guns are largely useless due to how much they cost right now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[a bunch of nonsense]

Oh look, yet another Marine player falling back on the L2P crutch when confronted with Imperial Guard players asking for viable units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

ExFideFortis wrote:
Just deep-struck in? Enjoy 12" range with 2 shots!

Try positioning them at longer range. You might get a bolter or plasma round in the face, but afterwards you are at a big advantage with a Salvo weapon.

At longer range the Hellguns the rest of the models are carrying become utterly useless.

Honestly? L2P IS a good argument if you're constantly assaulted by Tactical Marines and think they're any bit close to holding their own in melee.

Maybe that is because *drum roll* the Tactical Marines are actually better than IG units in close combat and a Tactical squad assaulting an Infantry or hell, even a Storm troops (the guys who are supposed to do close quarters) will utterly annihilate the Imperial Guard for minimal losses in return.

 master of ordinance wrote:
When you consider that Grenade Launchers are actually a better choice then you really should see that Volley Guns are largely useless due to how much they cost right now.

It would take you between 13-14 turns to kill a Tac Squad with Grenade Launchers.

Against MEQ? They're not a better choice.

I have to respond to Vaktathi later as my phone won't let me go back and forth to quote and respond, but aren't Volley Guns 10 points?

The problem is that that they should have marine stats but marines hve marines stats

The volleyguns are a subpar choice. For 10pts, it way better to Get melta, especially on a deepstriking unit. If they would be 5pts or have a different firing profile they could be possible worthwhile. But it is competing vs meltas and plasmas. And the guard knows they can never have enough plasma and melta.

Only way i can see the volleyguns being good is if you set up a scion command squad with 4 of them in a ruin or something to bunker up an objective and not move them all game. But for 10pts less you get a vet squad with 3plasmas and the better cover save doctrine (forgot whatit is called).

Tempestus isn't exactly hurting for firepower. A twinlinked plasma command with Rapidfire will put 5.9W down on Marines, or 6.2W with the Krak Grenade. Two Vet plasma squads in Rapidfire range will do about 6.7W. The cost is 145pts for the Command Squad, compared to 340pts minimum for the Vets once you factor in Chimeras.

Guard now has Multilasers, Lasguns, and Heavy Bolters coming out their ears. Tempestus is going to buy 200pts of Taurox Primes instead of Chimeras, and with a pretty standard AC/ML loadout, we don't actually get any anti-infantry shooting whatsoever (well, AP6 Frag Missiles).

Melta is great on Scions, especially with scatter mitigation and reserves tricks. Don't get me wrong. But the Volleygun is useful if you want some anti-infantry punch. Guard's just not typically in a position where that's what they require.

The actual, boring maths answer to the OP's question is that D6 / 2D6 rolls don't allow very much granularity, and sticking Marines just north of average doesn't leave much room to make anything else very varied. :-(

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tempestus isn't exactly hurting for firepower.

For what they cost and what their upgrades cost, yes they are.

A twinlinked plasma command with Rapidfire will put 5.9W down on Marines, or 6.2W with the Krak Grenade. Two Vet plasma squads in Rapidfire range will do about 6.7W. The cost is 145pts for the Command Squad, compared to 340pts minimum for the Vets once you factor in Chimeras.

And the command squad is a quarter the size of the Vets and currently DS'ing in rather than hurtling about in what is at least a semi decent IFV. The Command squad will be wiped out, the Vets will actually have a chance of lasting long enough to do something worthy. The two Chimera born Vet sections are by far the better choice here.

Guard now has Multilasers,

Sub par, essentially a HB with a pip more S but two less(more) AP

Lasguns,

You are having a joke right? The Lasgun is so underpowered I sometimes wonder why I bother wasting the time firing them

and Heavy Bolters coming out their ears.

Heavy Bolters are considered heavily underwhelming when compared to every other heavy weapon out there. And this is before we remember that the Guard do not get any of the Marines super special snowflake buffs for them.

Tempestus is going to buy 200pts of Taurox Primes instead of Chimeras,

WHHAAAATTTT?! Have you even been listening to anything we have been saying? The Tauroox is the most suboptimal transport in the game right now. Hell, it has less armour than a Rhino and the Prime costs nearly a hundred points. Chimeras are far superior.

and with a pretty standard AC/ML loadout,

can argue, its a semi decent loadout. Or would be if the vehicle cost less than half what it does.

we don't actually get any anti-infantry shooting whatsoever (well, AP6 Frag Missiles).

AC's

Melta is great on Scions,

Agreed

especially with scatter mitigation and reserves tricks.

Also agreed, though once again we a re paying through our noses for it

Don't get me wrong.

I have a horrible feeling I have been getting you far too right

But the Volleygun is useful if you want some anti-infantry punch.

*Would be useful if it cost a lot less than it does

Guard's just not typically in a position where that's what they require.

Almost never.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tempestus isn't exactly hurting for firepower.

For what they cost and what their upgrades cost, yes they are.

A twinlinked plasma command with Rapidfire will put 5.9W down on Marines, or 6.2W with the Krak Grenade. Two Vet plasma squads in Rapidfire range will do about 6.7W. The cost is 145pts for the Command Squad, compared to 340pts minimum for the Vets once you factor in Chimeras.

And the command squad is a quarter the size of the Vets and currently DS'ing in rather than hurtling about in what is at least a semi decent IFV. The Command squad will be wiped out, the Vets will actually have a chance of lasting long enough to do something worthy. The two Chimera born Vet sections are by far the better choice here.

Guard now has Multilasers,

Sub par, essentially a HB with a pip more S but two less(more) AP

Lasguns,

You are having a joke right? The Lasgun is so underpowered I sometimes wonder why I bother wasting the time firing them

and Heavy Bolters coming out their ears.

Heavy Bolters are considered heavily underwhelming when compared to every other heavy weapon out there. And this is before we remember that the Guard do not get any of the Marines super special snowflake buffs for them.

Tempestus is going to buy 200pts of Taurox Primes instead of Chimeras,

WHHAAAATTTT?! Have you even been listening to anything we have been saying? The Tauroox is the most suboptimal transport in the game right now. Hell, it has less armour than a Rhino and the Prime costs nearly a hundred points. Chimeras are far superior.

and with a pretty standard AC/ML loadout,

can argue, its a semi decent loadout. Or would be if the vehicle cost less than half what it does.

we don't actually get any anti-infantry shooting whatsoever (well, AP6 Frag Missiles).

AC's

Melta is great on Scions,

Agreed

especially with scatter mitigation and reserves tricks.

Also agreed, though once again we a re paying through our noses for it

Don't get me wrong.

I have a horrible feeling I have been getting you far too right

But the Volleygun is useful if you want some anti-infantry punch.

*Would be useful if it cost a lot less than it does

Guard's just not typically in a position where that's what they require.

Almost never.

And that's when we realise everything excep vets or the wyvern is just plain subpar in the guard codex. Scions have a few nifty tricks up their sleeves, but it's sadly not enough.

and ona side note, would the ability to use chimeras in the scion codex be a buff for them? Taurox seems... meh.

What's the utility of a Chimera in the event you want to Deepstrike? It's BS3, it lacks Fast, it has less range, it has less firepower, and it's effectively AV10 once it's midfield.

Scions can already get cheaper Chimeras with more firing ports and Psybolts through Inquisition. Not worth it.

It's going to ruffle feathers (again) but the Taurox Prime is simply a better vehicle once the troops are disembarked.

Yoyoyo wrote:
What's the utility of a Chimera in the event you want to Deepstrike? It's BS3, it lacks Fast, it has less range, it has less firepower, and it's effectively AV10 once it's midfield.

Scions can already get cheaper Chimeras with more firing ports and Psybolts through Inquisition. Not worth it.

It's going to ruffle feathers (again) but the Taurox Prime is simply a better vehicle once the troops are disembarked.

The taurox Prime lacks the armour to survive past turn one/two. It is literally utter gak for what you are paying for it.

Chimeras are: a lot cheaper, have better armour, the Command Vehicle rule, more capacity IIRC, are Amphibious, actually have fire points, etc.
What competition is there between the two? One is an overpriced under armoured fugly as hell model whilst the other is a pricey but at least worth it model that looks nice.

And if it comes down to it, my Guard can have Chimers through the Inquisition too.

Didn't we already have this conversation once?

Taurox Primes are like Typhoon Speeders or a DE Ravager that got hacked into a transport. Of course they're expensive.

I don't really care if you don't like the model. What does that have to do with the rules?

Yoyoyo wrote:
Didn't we already have this conversation once?

Taurox Primes are like Typhoon Speeders or a DE Ravager that got hacked into a transport. Of course they're expensive.

I don't really care if you don't like the model. What does that have to do with the rules?

Because the Typhoon and ravager are both Skimmers, can both Jink,making them a lot more durable, can both move over terrain and are both a lot more agile than the overpriced scrap heap that is the taurox.

Doesn't the Taurox have MTC? So it's actually better at moving through terrain. Jink also removes all your firepower.

pm713 wrote:
Doesn't the Taurox have MTC? So it's actually better at moving through terrain. Jink also removes all your firepower.

But Jink keeps you alive long enough to deliver your cargo. The Taurox will be destroyed early on owing to it lack of armour or defensive abilities.

TheMostWize wrote:
Why in the world are Scions Ld 7?

This literally makes no sense. Based on GW own descriptions these are super soldiers (not on par with Space Marines obviously...). GW claims they are virtually incorruptible and Commissars are drawn from the same pool of men who end up becoming Scions. Would it really of been that bad to give a standard Scion Ld 8?

Might not really be a big deal in the grand scheme of things but it is something that kind of irked me and made me take a second glance.

Meh. I am still going to make them work as my main army.

Well I mean they are really meant to be led still. Also, i play a Militarum Tempestus force and to be perfectly honest, with as many as there are to field in the force, morale matters sometimes but they often get blown up wholesale before morale matters. But in a Maelstrom game, they are quite good at keeping the pressure on an enemy and taking points from them. Its the Primary missions that they struggle with kind of forcing them to go second just to have a shot at them. but that's okay too. That means you get the chance at the end of regrouping instead of being on the receiving end.

Morale matters but they are an MSU style of force so you weather it with sheer numbers if you can.

 master of ordinance wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Doesn't the Taurox have MTC? So it's actually better at moving through terrain. Jink also removes all your firepower.

But Jink keeps you alive long enough to deliver your cargo. The Taurox will be destroyed early on owing to it lack of armour or defensive abilities.

That seems an exaggeration. It can get close enough to deliver cargo in a turn and unlike most vehicles can use cover without risking breaking itself.

but chimeras don't have fire points. They have LASGUN ARRAYS! WOOPTY fething doo!

FW also blessed us with AC chimeras I believe.

The Autocannon is nice but it won't change much. Here's the dilemma with a Chimera as fire support:

- If a Chimera moves more than 6", it will fire at BS1.
- If you move less than 6", you troops might not reach their Objectives.
- If you deploy it forward, you're exposing the AV10 sides.

Not to mention, one BS3 Autocannon isn't exactly astonishing firepower anyway. Guard does have some pretty awesome artillery, though.

FYI, if you convert the Taurox into either a half-track or fully-wheeled vehicle, it looks SOOOOOO much better.