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I am not saying turn one assault should be easy to get.
What I'm saying is in 5th edition you could have assault out of reserves unless you deep stike. It didn't brake the game in any way and was very tactically flexible. You had to think about placement from units that could hit you from the side when they came in. It makes no sense for a unit that is outflanking to have to come in stand around for a whole ton of shooting and then gets shot in OverWatch.
pm713 wrote:Bubble wrap them? I would've thought that would be easy with Guard.
Well remember what some people think. If they sees 3 Wyverns they're quitting the game because you're a TFG cheesemonger.
Wyverns Cheese? Yeah right.... also considered you need 2-3 of them to be effective.... and a niche unit too, they're not going to manage to stop assaulting troops in transports (unless your one of those idiots who suggests footslogging marines), you then have to waste point babysitting them doing nothing else.
Wyverns are cheap. Most DS infantry isn't. It's unlikely even a full melta drop will kill all of them. And then they lose everything the dropped.
Invisibility makes almost everything good. That's a non argument. If you they casting it on their vindicators, you've won already.
DS infantry can be hella cheap? Free drop pods for anyone? Wyverns are also killed by anything S4 in either shooting or CC... You even have fairly cheap DS units in guards own codex.... never mind nids etc. Like I'm all for helping nids, but as others said you hardly wanna buff every single factions ability to DS charge seeing some, like the guard, would be even worse than they already are.
You don't even need melta's, marines with boltguns can do the job easily enough. If you add bubblewrap to wyverns you're lookimg easily at a 300+ point investment just to keep one of their only slightly competitive units alive.
You aren't likely to hp out AV 10 with 20 BS 4 bolter shots. Try again. Let them deep strike in and fire boltguns. Boltguns are quite irrelevant in the game now.
Yeah at least 2 HP gone.... first turn... if they manage to assault next turn or turn 1 (like this thread suggests) the wyvern would be insta dead. Never mind upgrades to the drop pod or tactical squad. Anyone who thinks wyverns... or any vehicles with AV10 sides are hard to kill via deepstriking have bigger problems.
Making widescale flankers or DS units capable of CC seems just nuts. There are a few nid units for example I would expect assaulting to possible such as genestealers or those arriving via tunnels. But then again leave it for weaker units and those that are pure CC. Helping the likes of marines in drop pods even more would just risk breaking the farce of balance we have at the moment even more.
They won't be assaulting anything next turn. They'll be dead on your shooting phase. Because 7th ed says so.
And if I pay for a pod and a melta, I should be able to frag a single cheap tank. And Wyverns are cheap. A tac squad or even BA assault squad won't statistically kill more than one wyvern in the squadron. And then they all die. So I'm trading over 100 points for the price of a wyvern.
Marines in drop pods are good because of skyhammer, which ALREADY allows assaulting, but is really all about relentless grav cannons. What about Dante-themed BA lists? They just die under the current rules.
Martel732 wrote: Shootas are better than bolters. You can assault after you use them. AP doesn't matter, and it gets more shots from 12"-18".
The shoota is better..but the shootER isn't. BS2 just sucks.
That's true, but you still score as many hits per point of shoota boy as tac marines. Yeah, they aren't as durable, but that matters less and less with every codex release. The IA splats marines like they were boyz.
Xenomancers wrote:I dare you to try to turn 1 assault my tau. Sending a unit in alone into my rapid fire is GG for you.
Says the person who has the rules in favor of him.
I am pro first turn assault. I think you should be able to do it from infiltrate, reserves, outflank, and deep strike.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote:I dare you to try to turn 1 assault my tau. Sending a unit in alone into my rapid fire is GG for you.
Says the person who has the rules in favor of him.
I am pro first turn assault. I think you should be able to do it from infiltrate, reserves, outflank, and deep strike.
Not a chance in hell. It would invalidate so many armies it is not even funny, and I for one am not having my already super hardcore mode turned up to 12 by turn 1 zerg rushes into my Infatry units and Tanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: Basically all the complaints are "waaaah! eldar are op, therefor you should make ME op!" and "waaah! tau are op, therefor you should make ME op!"
Why not nerf Eldar and Tau instead? Because there's a lot of shooty armies that would be utterly fethed over by this chance and are NOT currently powerhouses. Or perhaps you want to give, for example, Sisters of Battle Super Boltgun Mk9001s, and SolarMultiMeltaPistols, and PlasFlamers, and turn it in to a "roll for first turn to determine who wins the game" kind of battle?
^^ This. I am in complete agreement with Melissa here - we need to nerf Eldar, marines and Tau back into line with the other codexes, not make everything stupidly over-the-top-as-feth powerful.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/10 16:44:55
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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Assaulting tanks with marines now is a lot more futile. At least with turn one assault you can fight back. Turn one shooting means i can't do a thing except die.
Nerfs aren't coming. They don't sell models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/10 16:46:56
Martel732 wrote: Assaulting tanks with marines now is a lot more futile. At least with turn one assault you can fight back. Turn one shooting means i can't do a thing except die.
Nerfs aren't coming. They don't sell models.
Powerfist/Thunderhammer/Poweraxe + 1 Krak Grenade plus 24 S4 attacks against RAV 10 will kill most none SH tanks.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
Martel732 wrote: Assaulting tanks with marines now is a lot more futile. At least with turn one assault you can fight back. Turn one shooting means i can't do a thing except die.
Nerfs aren't coming. They don't sell models.
Powerfist/Thunderhammer/Poweraxe + 1 Krak Grenade plus 24 S4 attacks against RAV 10 will kill most none SH tanks.
Most marines don't have that because melee weapons are stupidly overcosted. Are you losing to bad marine lists?
Martel732 wrote: Assaulting tanks with marines now is a lot more futile. At least with turn one assault you can fight back. Turn one shooting means i can't do a thing except die.
Nerfs aren't coming. They don't sell models.
Powerfist/Thunderhammer/Poweraxe + 1 Krak Grenade plus 24 S4 attacks against RAV 10 will kill most none SH tanks.
Most marines don't have that because melee weapons are stupidly overcosted. Are you losing to bad marine lists?
I was losing to Krak Grenade spam when it came down to tanks. Havnt tried it with this new errata but given that he could demolish a squadron in the assault phase I am not sure much will change.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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Martel732 wrote: They won't be assaulting anything next turn. They'll be dead on your shooting phase. Because 7th ed says so.
And if I pay for a pod and a melta, I should be able to frag a single cheap tank. And Wyverns are cheap. A tac squad or even BA assault squad won't statistically kill more than one wyvern in the squadron. And then they all die. So I'm trading over 100 points for the price of a wyvern.
Marines in drop pods are good because of skyhammer, which ALREADY allows assaulting, but is really all about relentless grav cannons. What about Dante-themed BA lists? They just die under the current rules.
Any the would be dead next turn because? A lucky single wyvern would most likely only kill 2 MEQ's.
Even with first turn assault knowing how to deploy your units to respond can make a huge difference, especially if you know model relation rules.
I went up against a guard player in a tournament, he took one look at my drop pods, dreadnoughts and thunderwolves and responded with deployment changes. Where in other matches he'd deployed things pretty clumped he spread everything so my drop pods couldn't drop into his deployment zone, I couldn't reach his tanks with most of my weapons and had to decide between all-or-nothing full range melta shots at the tanks and flaming troops rather than my usual plan of flamering the tank and torching another unit that happens to be in the way or flaming the infantry and leaving the tank unmolested, my templates were getting minimal models underneath them. Deathwind missile launchers, Heavy and normal flamers and a couple of bolt pistol shots later I'd only killed one unit and forced some movement to maintain unit coherency, two units of my thunderwolves hit and were forced to take on a small unit of cheap guard because I was forced to get past them in order to get at the larger units. Even though I measured an tricked and only got one model of each unit into combat I still tore through those units and was left out in the shooting gallery for my opponent's first turn, his tanks blew away a few of my tanks, a squad of wulfen and a squad of thunderwolves that weren't even in line of sight, guard charged my dread with a twelve man fearless unit just to lock up its heavy flamer for at least six turns. Just the sheer press of bodies forced me into attacking expendable units and the game came down to my grey hunters and his transports & tanks grabbing as many objectives as possible and his bloody tanks obliterating my hunters whenever they got one.
Result
Guard
7x Tactical Objectives
4x Objective Markers
Space Wolves
First Blood Shooting
First Blood Assault
Line Breaker
1x Objective Marker
2x Tactical Objetives
My point isn't that shooting is over powered it's that assault can be dictated by so many more things than shooting, to the point where a smart opponent can force you to attack what he or she would prefer you to attack and pretty much force you out in the open during their shooting phases.
Melee upgrades cost like crazy so you have a lot of points sitting on a small number of wounds and every dead melee model hurts like mad, models can't jump over enemy units nor pass within an inch of them, unless you have split fire you must charge what you shoot at, even if that target was destroyed by shooting, meaning if you kill it with shooting your melee unit's turn ends in the shooting phase, charges are at the mercy of terrain and can suffer modifiers and even wounds like crazy, you can't charge what you can't see in spite of shootie armies being able to shoot what they can't see you have to charge through overwatch, sometimes you have to forgo your unit's own shooting phase and take the full overwatch just to make damn sure your melee units won't kill their target and be left out in the open, vehicles that aren't walkers can't be locked into combat so your unit is going to be left out in the open no matter what the result of their charge was.
Assault armies have it rough and people are griping turn one assaults? To paraphrase Major Payne, you'll find my sympathy in the dictionary between s#it and syphilis.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Skimask Mohawk wrote: Not sure if anyone has brought this up, but in 5th you COULD assault turn one and assault out of reserves. Guess what dominated the meta? Shooting armies, in a time before allying to maximize combo potential, before overwatch, before interceptor.
Its almost like there's more tools to use against assault now in addition to guns getting stronger and stronger.
This. I'd like to refer back to Ailaros's oldie but goldie at the start of 6th edition (spoilered for length):
- Your charge distance is at the mercy of the dice. I have seen several assaults that would have been in range in 5th fail in 6th.
- You can no longer run and assault with Fleet.
- Grenades got nerfed for assaulting through terrain.
- Assault grenades no longer hurt vehicles.
- Overwatch
- And, because it really needs to be mentioned twice given the scope of the rule, transported units can overwatch if their transport gets charged, walkers can overwatch, and flamers are overwatch BEASTS. There is now literally no point in attempting to assault a unit of burnaz.
- A unit type that IS IMMUNE TO CLOSE COMBAT was born and became a staple in many lists (fliers)
- You can't assault out of a non-assault vehicle ever and that includes when it is destroyed on you
- Multi-charges were nerfed
- Challenges killed a lot of the potential of combat beast characters
- You can't assault on the turn you come on from reserves
- You can't assault if you Infiltrate or Scout and go first
- The distance from which an assault vehicle brings you closer to the enemy is reduced
- Some random objectives half your assault range
- Furious Charge got nerfed
- Wound allocation forces you to take the models from the front as casualties, this makes an assault unit take an extra turn(s) of being exposed to gunfire before they can get stuck in.
- Wound allocation means that hidden weapons upgrades are no longer hidden. You only need to kill a squad to the point where the upgrade model is the closest to something. This is very easy to achieve with deepstriking.
- Loss of by-unit cover in favor of by-model cover destroys the ability for foot hordes to advance upfield.
- Addition of focus fire
- Addition of Precise Shot.
- Worsening of cover. Intervening units only give 4+, hills no longer area terrain, etc.
- Power weapons got screwed up. Either Ap3, or I1, take your choice...
- You can no longer disembark after moving more than 6" in a transport (killing mech assault units).
- grenades can now be thrown.
- walkers can no longer tie up squads in close combat.
- grenades now work against monstrous creatures in close combat. This hurts dedicated assault units relative to basic infantry that have no desire to be in close combat.
- pre-measuring makes it much easier to make sure shooting weapons are in range, while not helping assault units make it into assault more reliably.
- rapid fire now puts more shots out on the move.
- you can now move and fire heavy weapons. This and the above change to rapid fire mean that you can now back up away from assault units while still shooting.
- parts of a squad can now move without affecting the accuracy of heavy weapons.
- old wound wrapping gotten rid of. I'm glad, but for the purposes of this discussion, it is a boost to shooting more than assaulting.
- pile-in moves reduced to 3" from 6".
- unengaged models in a unit that is locked in close combat must now move closer to the enemy units. Used to capture objectives far away while in close combat with this one in 5th.
- barrage weapons may now fire within their minimum ranges.
- barrage weapons no longer lose strength against vehicles from off-center scatters.
- artillery units got MUCH more survivable.
- models with two pistol weapons can now fire them both.
- vehicles can shoot all weapons at cruising speed.
- in order to charge a vehicle, you must have some way of damaging it.
RELATIVE BUFFS FOR ASSAULT
- hypothetical increase of maximum charge range from 6" to 12". Given that assault range is no longer reliable, I still consider this more of a nerf than a buff. I mean, if you're 12" away, are you really going to attempt to charge? The most likely result is that your opponent will get some free overwatch, and you're still not making it into close combat.
- hammer of wrath.
- assaulting vehicles now gives you much better chance to hit.
- rage rule change
- gets hot now affects those rare vehicles that have it
So, some of these changes are more important than others, and you can uselessly nit-pick them all you like, but the fact is that there were 39 rule changes to make shooting better, and arguably up to 5 rule changes that make assault better.
Put another way, for every rule that made assault better, there were EIGHT rules that make shooting better.
6th ed is a shooting edition. End of.
Not to mention the codices that have come out since 6th. Eldar and especially tau make a mockery of assault. Or, really, any game mechanic that isn't rolling dice to see if you damage something.
Admittedly some of these changes, like Precision Shots, aren't around in the same form in 7th as in 6th, but we're still looking at a situation where assault is far worse off than in 5th, and shooting was already stronger in 5th!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/11 10:52:18
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Martel732 wrote: You do have an army with those wyverns, right? The two remaining wyverns alone would gut a 5 man squad.
Ah yes, the rest of the army which will in all honesty kill maybe a squad in a turn. Why are marine players so set against letting Guard players have anything good?
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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Martel732 wrote: You do have an army with those wyverns, right? The two remaining wyverns alone would gut a 5 man squad.
3 Wyverns equals 13-14 marines and 3 drop pods..... two Wyverns would kill maybe 4 of those marines?
And heaven forbid Guard having a unit that can kill light infantry and chip away at marines without being horrifically overpriced akin to the rest of their codex. I actually only have two wyverns.... and would only use them in units of two seeing their effectiveness drops when you put them in units of three and it's a risk having three unit squadrons on an open topped chimera chassis.
Martel732 wrote: You do have an army with those wyverns, right? The two remaining wyverns alone would gut a 5 man squad.
Ah yes, the rest of the army which will in all honesty kill maybe a squad in a turn. Why are marine players so set against letting Guard players have anything good?
I've seen guard kill 40 meqs in one turn. Maybe you should look into how to do that. This involved some suboptimal saves from the marine player, but plasma guns and wound spam are a thing.
Martel732 wrote: You do have an army with those wyverns, right? The two remaining wyverns alone would gut a 5 man squad.
3 Wyverns equals 13-14 marines and 3 drop pods..... two Wyverns would kill maybe 4 of those marines?
And heaven forbid Guard having a unit that can kill light infantry and chip away at marines without being horrifically overpriced akin to the rest of their codex. I actually only have two wyverns.... and would only use them in units of two seeing their effectiveness drops when you put them in units of three and it's a risk having three unit squadrons on an open topped chimera chassis.
It might equal it, but your typical pod drop is 5 men and three meltaguns tops. They statistically have around a 50% chance of exploding a single wyvern with no cover. That seems pretty reasonable to me.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/11 14:47:12
2016/06/11 15:04:37
Subject: Re:Why is assaulting turn one such a issue?
And heaven forbid Guard having a unit that can kill light infantry and chip away at marines without being horrifically overpriced akin to the rest of their codex
...You kid right? Guard don't need upgrades or special units to beat marines. Compared to Space Wolves or any other Melee Space Marine outfit war gear Guard have no concept of the term 'expensive' for 140 points a Space wolves player can field two bare five man grey hunter units or a single ten man unit, a guard player can put down two platoon command squads and four infantry squads and arm ten models with bolt guns. That's twenty bolter shots and a further twenty five las-pistol shots. Sheer volume of shots will drop most marine units of a similar points value.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Huron black heart wrote: The game tried to balance the strength of close combat orientated armies, unfortunately they went too far the other way.
Rather than turn one assaults I'd allow units to consolidate from a victorious assault straight into another, if the opponent is silly enough to bunch his army together that is.
Behold as my single thunder hammer blows up your entire back line of vehicles mr parking lot guard.
Do we really need to nerf tanks harder?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/11 18:39:02
2016/06/11 18:52:21
Subject: Re:Why is assaulting turn one such a issue?
And heaven forbid Guard having a unit that can kill light infantry and chip away at marines without being horrifically overpriced akin to the rest of their codex
...You kid right? Guard don't need upgrades or special units to beat marines. Compared to Space Wolves or any other Melee Space Marine outfit war gear Guard have no concept of the term 'expensive' for 140 points a Space wolves player can field two bare five man grey hunter units or a single ten man unit, a guard player can put down two platoon command squads and four infantry squads and arm ten models with bolt guns. That's twenty bolter shots and a further twenty five las-pistol shots. Sheer volume of shots will drop most marine units of a similar points value.
You do know a base platoon is 130 points right?
That's just one PCS and two infantry squads and out of them you can arm three with boltguns .... so that's 133 points.... have you even read the guard codex? Guard are horrifically weak in CC and most of their shooting that can reliably take out marines... is notoriously unreliable due to BS 3 scatter shenanigans.
One on one comparisons aren't what the game is about.
Unit X at 100 points may always beat unit Y, but that ignores what Y is strong against, what X is weak to, the movement options the synergy with the rest of the army.
Such a pointless comparison.
Star Trek taught me so much. Like, how you should accept people, whether they be black, white, Klingon or even female...
And heaven forbid Guard having a unit that can kill light infantry and chip away at marines without being horrifically overpriced akin to the rest of their codex
...You kid right? Guard don't need upgrades or special units to beat marines. Compared to Space Wolves or any other Melee Space Marine outfit war gear Guard have no concept of the term 'expensive' for 140 points a Space wolves player can field two bare five man grey hunter units or a single ten man unit, a guard player can put down two platoon command squads and four infantry squads and arm ten models with bolt guns. That's twenty bolter shots and a further twenty five las-pistol shots. Sheer volume of shots will drop most marine units of a similar points value.
And you sir are either in a jovial mood or just out right delusional. 140 points, well someone above mentioned how much Platoons cost but he actually got it wrong. The minimal platoon cost, before any upgrades, is 135 points.
135 pints for 25 bods with lasguns.
Your two five man Grey hunter squads will go through that like a hot knife through soft butter, hell 'massacre' does not even begin to cover it.
As with many Marine players I see here, whining about the Guard, you have clearly never read the codex. Try reading it and coming up with a viable army that does not just come down to Vets and Leman Russ/Wyvern spam.
@Martel732: When the dice are with them Grots can take out Terminators. Usually an Imperial guard army will kill less than half that and most of those casualties will come from tank hits against Marines in the open. As soon as the enemy enters cover the effectiveness drops rapidly.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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2016/06/11 20:16:21
Subject: Re:Why is assaulting turn one such a issue?
And heaven forbid Guard having a unit that can kill light infantry and chip away at marines without being horrifically overpriced akin to the rest of their codex
...You kid right? Guard don't need upgrades or special units to beat marines. Compared to Space Wolves or any other Melee Space Marine outfit war gear Guard have no concept of the term 'expensive' for 140 points a Space wolves player can field two bare five man grey hunter units or a single ten man unit, a guard player can put down two platoon command squads and four infantry squads and arm ten models with bolt guns. That's twenty bolter shots and a further twenty five las-pistol shots. Sheer volume of shots will drop most marine units of a similar points value.
And you sir are either in a jovial mood or just out right delusional. 140 points, well someone above mentioned how much Platoons cost but he actually got it wrong. The minimal platoon cost, before any upgrades, is 135 points.
135 pints for 25 bods with lasguns.
Your two five man Grey hunter squads will go through that like a hot knife through soft butter, hell 'massacre' does not even begin to cover it.
As with many Marine players I see here, whining about the Guard, you have clearly never read the codex. Try reading it and coming up with a viable army that does not just come down to Vets and Leman Russ/Wyvern spam.
@Martel732: When the dice are with them Grots can take out Terminators. Usually an Imperial guard army will kill less than half that and most of those casualties will come from tank hits against Marines in the open. As soon as the enemy enters cover the effectiveness drops rapidly.
Gotta love playing Guard eh?
TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
2016/06/11 22:20:30
Subject: Re:Why is assaulting turn one such a issue?
And heaven forbid Guard having a unit that can kill light infantry and chip away at marines without being horrifically overpriced akin to the rest of their codex
...You kid right? Guard don't need upgrades or special units to beat marines. Compared to Space Wolves or any other Melee Space Marine outfit war gear Guard have no concept of the term 'expensive' for 140 points a Space wolves player can field two bare five man grey hunter units or a single ten man unit, a guard player can put down two platoon command squads and four infantry squads and arm ten models with bolt guns. That's twenty bolter shots and a further twenty five las-pistol shots. Sheer volume of shots will drop most marine units of a similar points value.
And you sir are either in a jovial mood or just out right delusional. 140 points, well someone above mentioned how much Platoons cost but he actually got it wrong. The minimal platoon cost, before any upgrades, is 135 points.
135 pints for 25 bods with lasguns.
Your two five man Grey hunter squads will go through that like a hot knife through soft butter, hell 'massacre' does not even begin to cover it.
As with many Marine players I see here, whining about the Guard, you have clearly never read the codex. Try reading it and coming up with a viable army that does not just come down to Vets and Leman Russ/Wyvern spam.
@Martel732: When the dice are with them Grots can take out Terminators. Usually an Imperial guard army will kill less than half that and most of those casualties will come from tank hits against Marines in the open. As soon as the enemy enters cover the effectiveness drops rapidly.
You mean YOUR IG armies. Sounds like you are still rely on Russ hulls to do damage. Big mistake.
You even mentioned Leman Russ spam as part of your "viable" army. No wonder you have so many problems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/11 22:29:36
2016/06/11 22:55:21
Subject: Re:Why is assaulting turn one such a issue?
And you sir are either in a jovial mood or just out right delusional. 140 points, well someone above mentioned how much Platoons cost but he actually got it wrong. The minimal platoon cost, before any upgrades, is 135 points.
135 pints for 25 bods with lasguns.
Your two five man Grey hunter squads will go through that like a hot knife through soft butter, hell 'massacre' does not even begin to cover it.
Actually I'm getting the numbers from what I've faced and battlescribe, I know it can be wrong, it doesn't allow me to have a Wolf Priest in my 'Heralds of the Great Wolf' formation, anyway I've faced platoons bearing those weapons in those numbers and so far battlescribe has allowed me to recreate those unit without the red notification !!! s.
The hot knife through butter is only true if things really don't go your way.
Best case scenario for Grey Hunters - you've made four pear shaped units and put a model from each unit on the front line and he can get a disorganised charge with one five man unit, you fail all your overwatch or only manage one wound, he passes his charge and then follows it up with a second unit of grey hunters into a single unit that can reach because they've somehow gotten to a flank that you haven't pressed against some kind of terrain or tank and gets fifteen attacks between both squads and your whole platoon locked into combat. If they accomplish all that you deserve to lose the squad like a hot knife through butter.
Normal case - Two Grey Hunter packs attack two squads, lose models in overwatch, kill the both squad then die in Guard player's shooting phase or the next round of overwatch.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Roknar wrote: My group all but stopped playing because you can pretty much loose the game turn 1 due to shooting.
Your group didn't play with nearly enough terrain/cover on the board.
I'm not saying that to be clever. I've seen plenty of battle reports online where people play like terrain is just a decoration and not a tactical consideration.
master of ordinance wrote: And you sir are either in a jovial mood or just out right delusional. 140 points, well someone above mentioned how much Platoons cost but he actually got it wrong. The minimal platoon cost, before any upgrades, is 135 points.
135 pints for 25 bods with lasguns.
D'oh.... I know it's slightly off topic... but where did I miss the 5 points? Codex say PCS is 30 points and infantry squads are 50?
And you sir are either in a jovial mood or just out right delusional. 140 points, well someone above mentioned how much Platoons cost but he actually got it wrong. The minimal platoon cost, before any upgrades, is 135 points.
135 pints for 25 bods with lasguns.
Your two five man Grey hunter squads will go through that like a hot knife through soft butter, hell 'massacre' does not even begin to cover it.
Actually I'm getting the numbers from what I've faced and battlescribe, I know it can be wrong, it doesn't allow me to have a Wolf Priest in my 'Heralds of the Great Wolf' formation, anyway I've faced platoons bearing those weapons in those numbers and so far battlescribe has allowed me to recreate those unit without the red notification !!! s.
The hot knife through butter is only true if things really don't go your way.
Best case scenario for Grey Hunters - you've made four pear shaped units and put a model from each unit on the front line and he can get a disorganised charge with one five man unit, you fail all your overwatch or only manage one wound, he passes his charge and then follows it up with a second unit of grey hunters into a single unit that can reach because they've somehow gotten to a flank that you haven't pressed against some kind of terrain or tank and gets fifteen attacks between both squads and your whole platoon locked into combat. If they accomplish all that you deserve to lose the squad like a hot knife through butter.
Normal case - Two Grey Hunter packs attack two squads, lose models in overwatch, kill the both squad then die in Guard player's shooting phase or the next round of overwatch.
Nahhh even battlescribe equals 130 points for a PCS and 2 infantry squads, so I dunno what you're typing into it....
I've never actually really seen a marine player really struggle against guard, I've obviously beat marines plenty of times but Wyverns have hardly ever been the deciding factor. The marines player generally have to use cover, not try an use lone squads to take on blobs and not be distracted by Distraction Carnifexes. Marines have the advantage of reliable vehicles, cheap transports, wide variety of deep striking option, decent shooting and above average CC and solid troops. Guard have number and blasts.
My main point that seems to have got lost in the "wyverns are cheese argument" is that if you allow charging from DS or reserves some armies, like guard will suffer massively. We already struggle with DS units never mind those that could assault straight away.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/12 00:33:20
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