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 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
And you sir are either in a jovial mood or just out right delusional. 140 points, well someone above mentioned how much Platoons cost but he actually got it wrong. The minimal platoon cost, before any upgrades, is 135 points.
135 pints for 25 bods with lasguns.

D'oh.... I know it's slightly off topic... but where did I miss the 5 points? Codex say PCS is 30 points and infantry squads are 50?

.

PCS are 35 points last I checked. Then again I could be wrong, I have not run platoons in years

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

Nahhh even battlescribe equals 130 points for a PCS and 2 infantry squads, so I dunno what you're typing into it....

I think everyone missed the part about bolters. 130 Points for the units + 10 points in upgrades.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
I've never actually really seen a marine player really struggle against guard, I've obviously beat marines plenty of times but Wyverns have hardly ever been the deciding factor. The marines player generally have to use cover, not try an use lone squads to take on blobs and not be distracted by Distraction Carnifexes. Marines have the advantage of reliable vehicles, cheap transports, wide variety of deep striking option, decent shooting and above average CC and solid troops. Guard have number and blasts.

My main point that seems to have got lost in the "wyverns are cheese argument" is that if you allow charging from DS or reserves some armies, like guard will suffer massively. We already struggle with DS units never mind those that could assault straight away.

I never had any real input on the 'wyverns are cheese argument' my whole point was that a good guard player can disperse his troops to force the melee units to attack the blobs, shoot the hell out of them then do it again when they emerge on the other side.

Anyhoo.

I've always thought guard were stupidly fragile but if you watch a guard player who plays guard competitively rather than just owning a guard army and blowing the dust off them every now and again you'd change your mind as well. Guard suffer a lot of casualties in any game but if you have a good grasp of the rules and realise that guard wounds are cheap they can do really well in the end result against mid-range armies like marines and the more close combat the army is the more they can dictate what melee their opponent can actually get.
The guy who cleaned my clock only struggled with Necrons, that is where you watch Guard shooting and combat become properly ineffective. Tau and Eldar are glass canons - break their momentum and they don't recover, Close combat armies can have their melee dictated by a smart opponent, Necrons are just so versatile they don't break because they'll lock up anything in combat and can't be forced to do squat because they can just sit out in the open and enjoy a firefight with any army in the game.

Turn one assaults aren't an issue, as long as you thought to take counter assault and "speed bump" style units.

If you focused on ranged damage at the expense of a balanced list you will be crushed by it.

then main reason is that ifn it came out of nowhere that peole would go from having a functional army to a worthless one overnight. eldar and tau basically go back t9o the drawing board and whole armies need to get broken down and rebuilt. because they have no answer to the possibility of teir entire army getting locked up and mauled badly by cc at minimum before they fired a shot off. tau players go from having a meta consistent army to one that just runs into a brick wall of impossible odds and extreme and desperate actions. tau basically become unplayable as they are now and might never become meta competitive again if turn 1/charge from reserves starts just being everywhere. they get shut down left n right.

Add kroot, add fire warriors or breachers. They wouldn't drop off overnight, they would have to add units to deal with something actually getting in range.

The only tau army that could be completely tied up in melee are ones that rely on a pile of riptide's because of low model count. Just change your strategy.

Eldar have fantastic counter assault units. Again, a list change does not invalidate an entire faction.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

Nahhh even battlescribe equals 130 points for a PCS and 2 infantry squads, so I dunno what you're typing into it....

I think everyone missed the part about bolters. 130 Points for the units + 10 points in upgrades.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
I've never actually really seen a marine player really struggle against guard, I've obviously beat marines plenty of times but Wyverns have hardly ever been the deciding factor. The marines player generally have to use cover, not try an use lone squads to take on blobs and not be distracted by Distraction Carnifexes. Marines have the advantage of reliable vehicles, cheap transports, wide variety of deep striking option, decent shooting and above average CC and solid troops. Guard have number and blasts.

My main point that seems to have got lost in the "wyverns are cheese argument" is that if you allow charging from DS or reserves some armies, like guard will suffer massively. We already struggle with DS units never mind those that could assault straight away.

I never had any real input on the 'wyverns are cheese argument' my whole point was that a good guard player can disperse his troops to force the melee units to attack the blobs, shoot the hell out of them then do it again when they emerge on the other side.

Anyhoo.

I've always thought guard were stupidly fragile but if you watch a guard player who plays guard competitively rather than just owning a guard army and blowing the dust off them every now and again you'd change your mind as well. Guard suffer a lot of casualties in any game but if you have a good grasp of the rules and realise that guard wounds are cheap they can do really well in the end result against mid-range armies like marines and the more close combat the army is the more they can dictate what melee their opponent can actually get.
The guy who cleaned my clock only struggled with Necrons, that is where you watch Guard shooting and combat become properly ineffective. Tau and Eldar are glass canons - break their momentum and they don't recover, Close combat armies can have their melee dictated by a smart opponent, Necrons are just so versatile they don't break because they'll lock up anything in combat and can't be forced to do squat because they can just sit out in the open and enjoy a firefight with any army in the game.

You can't have those +10 points, you could add +3.... maybe other options. Anyway point being guard already suffer when it comes to DS'ing. Guard already struggle with heavy infantry armies, necrons and tau.... arguably factions who now out shoot the traditionally shootyist army, all of which are far more resistant to damage. The whole reason Guard is a lower mid tier army is the fact the can deal with non competitive lists as long as they're not facing shooty armies and the fact they can deal with horde CC armies at a distance. If you allowed charging from DS or reserve, I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped to lower tier in their current shape.

I'm not against turn one charging however, seeing it's already a possibility.

Assault units should be cheaper if shooting stays the same, or assaulted units should suffer a pretty huge penalty.

If IG/Tau are trying to chew through metal boxes full of berzerkers, the box full of 10 berzerkers should be able to unload those berzerkers into the Tau fireline and completely chew it up, full stop, crisis suits included.

Having insane firepower should come at a price, and right now, there isn't one.

The transport issues hurt. When units could assault out of stationary transports, units like Berzerkers could at least function. Not being able to assault out of transports that moved was one thing, that was fine and good and really didnt appear to have issues in and of itself through 4E and 5E, but the change to include stationary transports was really crippling for such units starting with 6E.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The transport issues hurt. When units could assault out of stationary transports, units like Berzerkers could at least function. Not being able to assault out of transports that moved was one thing, that was fine and good and really didnt appear to have issues in and of itself through 4E and 5E, but the change to include stationary transports was really crippling for such units starting with 6E.

Tbh how would letting you move out of a stationary unit really help? If you had a unit next to such a transport you'd either A) Simply move it away or B) Pop it.

 ionusx wrote:
then main reason is that ifn it came out of nowhere that peole would go from having a functional army to a worthless one overnight. eldar and tau basically go back t9o the drawing board and whole armies need to get broken down and rebuilt. because they have no answer to the possibility of teir entire army getting locked up and mauled badly by cc at minimum before they fired a shot off. tau players go from having a meta consistent army to one that just runs into a brick wall of impossible odds and extreme and desperate actions. tau basically become unplayable as they are now and might never become meta competitive again if turn 1/charge from reserves starts just being everywhere. they get shut down left n right.

This is a little hard to read but I think you are saying Tau and Eldar possibility of a few others would be unplayable if turn 1 assaults became common.

I will disagree. Tau and Eldar have some of the best codex around. The have effective cheap screening units. Their armies tend to be Highly mobile and to top it off all of their units work well together to kill stuff.

Armies that spam one unit or two for max fire power with have issues. Riptide wing will not be maxed out any more which is a good thing.

Tau can be played with fire warriors or kroot and still make a effective army. People are just not use to it is all. It is easy to take the best units ignoring the rest.

Eldar are crazy good and will not suffer at all from getting hit by assault. They have many counter units and do well in assault when pressed.

I don't think anyone can say shooting is at a ok level. It is so overwhelmingly powerful that most assault armies stay home and don't even come to the table. Having units or powers in the game that make you think beyond the shooting phase is a good thing not bad.

Now should assaulting first turn be easy to do?? No but it should be a concept that you need to think about when building a list. If you forgo protective bouble rap or counter assault units then that is your falut. Not the units or powers that allow it.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The transport issues hurt. When units could assault out of stationary transports, units like Berzerkers could at least function. Not being able to assault out of transports that moved was one thing, that was fine and good and really didnt appear to have issues in and of itself through 4E and 5E, but the change to include stationary transports was really crippling for such units starting with 6E.

Tbh how would letting you move out of a stationary unit really help? If you had a unit next to such a transport you'd either A) Simply move it away or B) Pop it.

Well...it did. If it was blown up, you could still assault the next turn if I remember correctly. It actually made assault armies usable.

Personally I don't mind T1 assaults, I would love to be able to actually use screening tactics to block off certain CC elements and would love to use counter CC units in retaliation but with shooting being so powerful...what's the point?

I can use barrage D blasts on units out of LOS, weapons with monstrous range and rate of fire to murder tanks of all things, or JSJ units to incite my opponent into a murderous rage. Deepstrike Assault T1? that's a problem. Having more reliability to get into CC and the movement to threaten certain units T1 sounds great.

T1 assaults would lead to endless drop pod spam by Space Marines. This would suit the majority of players who play Space Marines and punish everyone else who plays anything else.

Allowing T1 assaults doesn't mean that everybody and their mom should be reliably reaching assault on the first turn. It should be something special. Right now you have to either take a formation or bring a specific set of units for it to work.

Reading through this thread I almost get the impression that most people aren't even aware that T1 assaults are already a thing. So much for breaking the game.

 adamsouza wrote:
T1 assaults would lead to endless drop pod spam by Space Marines. This would suit the majority of players who play Space Marines and punish everyone else who plays anything else.

Apart from Tau and, to an extent, Eldar.

So once again the top three would gain another godlike buff and the bottom lot would be hit even harder.

T1 assaults would lead to endless drop pod spam by Space Marines. This would suit the majority of players who play Space Marines and punish everyone else who plays anything else.

While it may not be practical for tournament play, I am finding a new found appreciation for Large mobs of Grot slaves again.
Part of my own planning for a first turn assault involves a few units to screen my own units.
I don't feel like I go first very often.
Open wide while I feed you garbage units!