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 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Why "shouldn't"? Because you say so? It's how I've done things for twenty years with no issues; "Fancy a game next week? I'll be using my Guard." "OK, I'll bring my Necrons", or whatever. Job done.

This. Even at the shop I play in, the majority of us adult types have more than one army. We'll roll in on Saturday and say, "who's up for a game?" and usually there are about 4 of us, so we hash out who brought what, and more often than not, do a 2v2 game.

We always know before we start rolling dice what factions are played, and the more regular of us know that certain elements of various people's armies are going to be in the army no matter what. For instance, everyone at my shop knows that when I run my SMs, I am going to bring LotD. It's what I do, I love that unit. I also have my knights with me each week, because some games just call for it.

Now, when I get my 5 knights done, and I roll up with all of them, I would expect to have people tailor a list to beat 5 knights (this is easier for some people than others ), but it does annoy me to no end when someone rolls up with say, Daemons, and another player says, "I brought my guard and my GK" and then promptly sets up a game using their daemon tailored GK in a random game.

There seems to be a bit of conflation here.
What I refer to as "list tailoring" and think is an unacceptable thing to do, is when you make a list specifically to defeat a particular list that you'll be facing. Like if someone at my club arranged a game with me and brought something designed to stomp me (remember I usually use the same list), they never do though.

If someone warns me that they'll be bringing "something bad" and I make sure I can deal with it, that's fine. I play the same list most of the time (the one that I can do with my shoe box full of daemons) and warn people that I use A LOT of psychic powers and 3 FMC's if they have not played me before. If they adjust their list a bit then fine, some lists CANNOT deal with mine and that's no fun, hence the warning. Building a list with what your friends tend to bring in mind, is ok too. If I challenge someone to beat my list then that's what I would expect.

Depends, against a new player you may want to list tailor down to provide new experiences for said payer and to provide a fun game. In a casual game I may want to list tailor so I can have a balanced game, most likely this will be toning down my Eldar lists. In a practice game for a competitive event I may list tailor to my opponent's worst/best match up so they can test their competitive builds.

All of the above scenarios require consent from both parties, list tailoring for an advantage without consent is abhorrent in my opinion, even against the triptide Tau I would suggest talking it out with your opponent and warn them before hand you may need to list tailor or they need to weaken their list for a good game. I've found that if you explain why you want to tailor (for a more balanced game or better practice) then most of my opponents have been receptive to it.

That said taking more cheese in a list shouldn't so you can deal with more powerful units such as riptides shouldn't be considered list tailoring... taking nothing but flamers vs harlequins would.

Just by 2 cents

 DarkBlack wrote:
What I refer to as "list tailoring" and think is an unacceptable thing to do, is when you make a list specifically to defeat a particular list that you'll be facing. Like if someone at my club arranged a game with me and brought something designed to stomp me (remember I usually use the same list), they never do though.

This sort of thing is exactly what I have a problem with. At my store, one of the guys who spends most of his days modeling (I've seriously only ever seen him throw dice maybe twice now, and I've been there going on 2 years) was asked for a game by a "special" character at our store. He says, "Hey [modeling dude], I brought my Grey Knights and Ultramarines, do you want to get a game in?" and the first guy responds with, "sure, but I only brought my daemons.... how many points would you like to play?"


In this situation, the better thing to do would have been to run the Smurfs, but instead, he took the GK, AND he kitted them out specifically to deal with Slaaneshi daemons (obviously, GK are the anti-daemon army, but, according to the other GK player at our store, when he saw what was on the table commented on it). So, naturally he won, and did so handily.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
What I refer to as "list tailoring" and think is an unacceptable thing to do, is when you make a list specifically to defeat a particular list that you'll be facing. Like if someone at my club arranged a game with me and brought something designed to stomp me (remember I usually use the same list), they never do though.

...In this situation, the better thing to do would have been to run the Smurfs, but instead, he took the GK, AND he kitted them out specifically to deal with Slaaneshi daemons (obviously, GK are the anti-daemon army, but, according to the other GK player at our store, when he saw what was on the table commented on it). So, naturally he won, and did so handily.

What's being described here is someone turning up with a list and someone then tailoring their army to fight it.

When I play games I play them with friends or guys from the shop who I have arranged to play.
When I started playing in the shop I overheard someone saying that 'list tailoring= bad, always play the same list'.
I had been playing for years prior to this and always switched up lists in between games- to improve on how things went last time or because I fancied trying new units etc.

Some of the objections I've seen here center round the idea that someone with more models can trot out a more varied army. I can't understand the mindset that wants to play a single list against randomers again and again- or indeed those that buy 2500pts (or whatever their tourney standard is) of army X and then stop. That sounds more like you bought a list rather than an army.

Part of the hobby for me is the week between games, puzzling over what units to include this time- and I expect my opponent to do the same.

My opponents already know what I am playing and toss in hard counters. I have many vehicles? Time to swap out all the flamers n stuff for melta and lascannon. I am using zero vehicles? time to pour in the grav. I have one flyer? pour in their jet fighters and sky fire.

If they dont list tailor its because their list is already powerful and can win 90% vs everything.

Here is a question for people who say they never list tailor and only make a take all comers list. Isn't a take all comers list list tailoring as well? After all you are taking a little this to counter that, taking that to counter this etc. So basically you are list tailoring to encounter everything. So in fact you are actually doing something you are condemning someone from doing so.

So unless you are doing a pure fluffy, you are list tailoring.

That's clap trap.

How on earth does one tailor, a word that literally means adjusting something to fit precisely when you've no idea what you're facing.

"Do you like my tailor made suit? What's that? Yes, the trousers are a bit short and no, I can't fasten the jacket. Why? Oh, because the guy who made it never laid eyes on me and didn't get given any measurements, but hey, it's got everything you need in a suit!"

I honestly believe whether or not it's "wrong" depends mostly on the context. If I know that I'm fighting Orks in my next game of course I'm going to bring weapons that are effective against Orks, to do anything else would be foolish, and I would expect my opponents to do the same if we arrange our games in advance. Where it's "wrong" is where you show up for a game, see what your opponent is bringing in their army, and deliberately design your army to crush theirs utterly. Those games are no fun for either party, and are imo a waste of time.

 War Kitten wrote:
I honestly believe whether or not it's "wrong" depends mostly on the context. If I know that I'm fighting Orks in my next game of course I'm going to bring weapons that are effective against Orks, to do anything else would be foolish, and I would expect my opponents to do the same if we arrange our games in advance. Where it's "wrong" is where you show up for a game, see what your opponent is bringing in their army, and deliberately design your army to crush theirs utterly. Those games are no fun for either party, and are imo a waste of time.

Completely agree. Trying to get the jump on someone with the perfect rock to their scissors either through subterfuge or their limited collection is deplorable.

However some of the best groups I've been a part of have heavily partaken in an active meta game trying to both bring what you think you need to trump their preferred units and including units you don't think they'll anticipate. I will acknowledge that this has suffered of late with the proliferation of "good at everything" units. 30k has been a welcome environment in that sense recently.

Tailoring to beat your opponents codex is fine by me. A commander would bring the tools appropriate to the task/opponent.

Tailoring to beat Jim is a dick move. Just because you know Jim only has two starter boxes of SM doesn't mean you should list tailor to that, by bringing the exact forces necessary to beat Jim.

 Red Marine wrote:
Tailoring to beat your opponents codex is fine by me. A commander would bring the tools appropriate to the task/opponent.

Tailoring to beat Jim is a dick move. Just because you know Jim only has two starter boxes of SM doesn't mean you should list tailor to that, by bringing the exact forces necessary to beat Jim.

There is a time, however, where tailoring to beat Jim isn't a dick move, IMO. Let's say Jim wants to try out a potential tourney list, or, he's bringing 3 WKs, or a Riptide wing, or he's running a Baronial Court or Exalted Court (though, to be fair, even with the potential for a 4+ save, AV 12/13 isn't all that hard to get through), then it can be OK to tailor a list.

I'm fine with list tailoring with the caveat that your opponent is not only aware of it, but is also allowed to and fully capable of doing the same.

So I voted that it's only wrong in a tournament setting or against new/weak lists. Tournament settings should test you as a commander and work with what you got, not bring in the hard counter to everything your opponent has. Anyone can use Water Gun on a Fire-type pokemon, but it takes a good player to beat a Rock Type with an Electric Type.

Similarly, new players will definitely not know what is good against what, or the subtle combinations needed to play the game. When I first started I tried playing Eldar like they were in the fluff; trying to preserve my units. It wasn't until later that I found out Guardians and non-Exarch Aspect Warriors were essentially cannon fodder for the one or two effective models in the unit. Tailoring your list against such an opponent would intentionally be abusing an advantage only you have in my books.

 Azreal13 wrote:
That's clap trap.

How on earth does one tailor, a word that literally means adjusting something to fit precisely when you've no idea what you're facing.

"Do you like my tailor made suit? What's that? Yes, the trousers are a bit short and no, I can't fasten the jacket. Why? Oh, because the guy who made it never laid eyes on me and didn't get given any measurements, but hey, it's got everything you need in a suit!"

lol, perfect.

 Azreal13 wrote:


This has long been my issue with IK, the decent thing is to let your opponent know if you're fielding an IK list, it is, after all, a unique faction which differs from pretty much any other list any other army can deploy, but how can one reasonably expect someone to spend any points on anti infantry if they know it'll be useless? But how can you get a fair game if your opponent brings nothing but stuff to kill AV? At least with the stronger factions - I'm not sure Orks could handle IK all that well right now even with advance notice.

Is a list of only Knights not already a "tailored list" specifically to counter lists that are geared to face any threat? So in what position is an IK player to complain about a list tailored against armor?

I'm probably generalizing too much here, but I think if there you build a list that can easily be countered then you already tailored your own list and can't really demand that others never exploit the obvious weaknesses you leave.

Tailoring to your meta is fine, but in a pick up game, seeing what your opponent puts on the table, then making a list is cheating, as you are trying to gain an advantage, hence cheating, if your both doing the same, that's fine, we have a no list, no game policy, and if I have a pick up game and haven't made a list, I tell my opponent not to tell me.his army until my list is done.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
What I refer to as "list tailoring" and think is an unacceptable thing to do, is when you make a list specifically to defeat a particular list that you'll be facing. Like if someone at my club arranged a game with me and brought something designed to stomp me (remember I usually use the same list), they never do though.

This sort of thing is exactly what I have a problem with. At my store, one of the guys who spends most of his days modeling (I've seriously only ever seen him throw dice maybe twice now, and I've been there going on 2 years) was asked for a game by a "special" character at our store. He says, "Hey [modeling dude], I brought my Grey Knights and Ultramarines, do you want to get a game in?" and the first guy responds with, "sure, but I only brought my daemons.... how many points would you like to play?"


In this situation, the better thing to do would have been to run the Smurfs, but instead, he took the GK, AND he kitted them out specifically to deal with Slaaneshi daemons (obviously, GK are the anti-daemon army, but, according to the other GK player at our store, when he saw what was on the table commented on it). So, naturally he won, and did so handily.

Daemons stomp Greyknights but I get what you are saying.

Azreal13 wrote:That's clap trap.

How on earth does one tailor, a word that literally means adjusting something to fit precisely when you've no idea what you're facing.

"Do you like my tailor made suit? What's that? Yes, the trousers are a bit short and no, I can't fasten the jacket. Why? Oh, because the guy who made it never laid eyes on me and didn't get given any measurements, but hey, it's got everything you need in a suit!"

Is that for my comment?