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Experiment 626 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
You can blame Ward for that. I can't imagine the other 8 Legions 'being flawed because they weren't the pinnacle of the Imperium, the ultramarines' would have gone well with collectors.

It's been toned down a bit, but never forgotten.

Eh, as stupid as Ward's (in)famous comments & rabid fanboy masturbation are, it's more so the fact that we had a wholly unnecessary supplement come out, that then gave absolutely nothing to the likes of the poor Templars and little to other under-represented 1st Founding Chapters such as the Ravenguard & Sallies... Meanwhile we also have Chaos Marines who are at the point of being pretty much an entirely pointless bad joke...

And despite all this, we had some Ultrasmurf whiners *****ing that the AoD supplement gave them nothing new.

proably cause it DIDN'T? maybe just MAYBE Ultramarine fans are sick of every other SM chapter being "Smurfs +1"?
Imperial Fists (jusat to use an example) can do everything UMs can, and then do their own stuff too? UM fans would like to see the chapter getting some love instead of being mostly ignroed and then sneered at by people who are still butt hurt over a Matt Ward Codex being, *gasp* poorly written.

BrianDavion wrote:
UM fans would like to see the chapter getting some love instead

You aren't alone. Now imagine playing a faction that didn't get 2 codex's in 2 years both loaded with new toys and chapter rules.

 MarsNZ wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
UM fans would like to see the chapter getting some love instead

You aren't alone. Now imagine playing a faction that didn't get 2 codex's in 2 years both loaded with new toys and chapter rules.

one of my armies is Chaos. belive me I'm familer with it.

Remember when BAs, IG, GKs and Necrons were the top of the 40k ladder in 5th? And how BA players used to tell Codex Marine players to just play BA, cause SM was bad and they should feel bad?

How the times have changed...

BrianDavion wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
You can blame Ward for that. I can't imagine the other 8 Legions 'being flawed because they weren't the pinnacle of the Imperium, the ultramarines' would have gone well with collectors.

It's been toned down a bit, but never forgotten.

Eh, as stupid as Ward's (in)famous comments & rabid fanboy masturbation are, it's more so the fact that we had a wholly unnecessary supplement come out, that then gave absolutely nothing to the likes of the poor Templars and little to other under-represented 1st Founding Chapters such as the Ravenguard & Sallies... Meanwhile we also have Chaos Marines who are at the point of being pretty much an entirely pointless bad joke...

And despite all this, we had some Ultrasmurf whiners *****ing that the AoD supplement gave them nothing new.

proably cause it DIDN'T? maybe just MAYBE Ultramarine fans are sick of every other SM chapter being "Smurfs +1"?
Imperial Fists (jusat to use an example) can do everything UMs can, and then do their own stuff too? UM fans would like to see the chapter getting some love instead of being mostly ignroed and then sneered at by people who are still butt hurt over a Matt Ward Codex being, *gasp* poorly written.

What? \imperial Fists, or any other chapter for that matter is not smurfs+1. How many detachments can UM use? 2? (anvil, demi) and fists get 3. Oh man that's so unfair. What about the salamander player that would like more than one special character? UM are fine.

And try to stay on topic please, this isn't going to devolve into an AOD thread, we have one of those.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Remember when BAs, IG, GKs and Necrons were the top of the 40k ladder in 5th? And how BA players used to tell Codex Marine players to just play BA, cause SM was bad and they should feel bad?

How the times have changed...

Space Wolves were top of the ladder by the time GK and Necrons came out. But yeah, BA weren't necessarily terrible in 5th, either.

BrianDavion wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
You can blame Ward for that. I can't imagine the other 8 Legions 'being flawed because they weren't the pinnacle of the Imperium, the ultramarines' would have gone well with collectors.

It's been toned down a bit, but never forgotten.

Eh, as stupid as Ward's (in)famous comments & rabid fanboy masturbation are, it's more so the fact that we had a wholly unnecessary supplement come out, that then gave absolutely nothing to the likes of the poor Templars and little to other under-represented 1st Founding Chapters such as the Ravenguard & Sallies... Meanwhile we also have Chaos Marines who are at the point of being pretty much an entirely pointless bad joke...

And despite all this, we had some Ultrasmurf whiners *****ing that the AoD supplement gave them nothing new.

proably cause it DIDN'T? maybe just MAYBE Ultramarine fans are sick of every other SM chapter being "Smurfs +1"?
Imperial Fists (jusat to use an example) can do everything UMs can, and then do their own stuff too? UM fans would like to see the chapter getting some love instead of being mostly ignroed and then sneered at by people who are still butt hurt over a Matt Ward Codex being, *gasp* poorly written.

Did you miss the part where the Ultramarines have what is quite possibly the best Psyker in the game?

This idea comes up every few years. I'll tell you why I don't like it... because it's not all about 'competitive power levels'.

I've played every BA codex and I had red marines (Flesh Eaters) prior to 2nd edition. The Blood Angels have enough character and rich background fluff alone to warrant a separate book, and there's no reason to compress all that into a summarized chapter in the SM book.

GW needs to be better about balance, period. Strictly talking rules, it might be possible to strip some flavor out of the BA list and make some items more generic but it's really not necessary.

Perhaps something like the 3rd edition codex would be a good compromise - it was built on the SM:Codex codex (it required it) but it remained separate and characterful.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Remember when BAs, IG, GKs and Necrons were the top of the 40k ladder in 5th? And how BA players used to tell Codex Marine players to just play BA, cause SM was bad and they should feel bad?

How the times have changed...

Uhh BA were 'on top of the ladder' in 5th for a cup of coffee, and as for telling Codex marines players to just play BA and feel bad - Yeah I don't think that actually happened, sorry - which makes feel like your wanting to see BA assimilated is more of a petty grievance rather than what is actually best for the players.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Remember when BAs, IG, GKs and Necrons were the top of the 40k ladder in 5th? And how BA players used to tell Codex Marine players to just play BA, cause SM was bad and they should feel bad?

How the times have changed...

SM weren't bad, they were just average. They should have already jumped ship to space puppies long before BA came out. Nothing in 5th made me feel as bad as GK, though. And BA were never on top, because both SW and IG were always better.

 Gunzhard wrote:
This idea comes up every few years. I'll tell you why I don't like it... because it's not all about 'competitive power levels'.

I've played every BA codex and I had red marines (Flesh Eaters) prior to 2nd edition. The Blood Angels have enough character and rich background fluff alone to warrant a separate book, and there's no reason to compress all that into a summarized chapter in the SM book.

GW needs to be better about balance, period. Strictly talking rules, it might be possible to strip some flavor out of the BA list and make some items more generic but it's really not necessary.

Every chapter has character and rich background fluff, yet 75% of them are in the normal marine dex. Of course it isn't "necessary" but it'd be better for BA players, because they'd get access to new units while chopping off their excess, unused ones, and it'd keep them balanced.

And yes, GW could fix this by just balancing all the books, but I'm sooner going to grow an extra 8 toes before that happens.

The Blood Angels have enough character and rich background fluff alone to warrant a separate book, and there's no reason to compress all that into a summarized chapter in the SM book.

Which of the other First Founding Chapters presently compressed are they more unique than? Raven Guard, White Scars? Salamanders?

Fluff and Lore can (and should be) explored and enjoyed - but I think the campaign books are a much better format for this, especially when they stick to the separate fluff and rule books in these packs.

If we were to be forever locked into the meta of the current BA codex, I'd agree with you.

However, before the current DA codex, you could have said the same thing about Dark Angels. All it would take is a great codex, like the DA one, to justify its uniqueness as a faction

There needs to be a great reason for some of the things that make BA unique to exist or be fielded, and some great formations to make that so. Unfortunately, being the last codex pre-super-formations, it may be a while before that happens.

On the other hand, the codex is no worse off than Grey Knights (though a little weaker), Imperial Guard, Orks, Dark Eldar etc., and at least you can always play most of your models using vanilla chapter tactics anyhow, so... other things need some love first, I think.

I do agree that out of BA/SW/GK/DA, the blood angels would be the most easily assimilated into the main codex, both in terms of models and rules.

Sorry, Talys, Dark Angels aren't unique enough either. They could be assimilated with relative ease. Nobody is using their flyers, so that mostly leaves just a couple of Terminator and Ravenwing to be brought in.

 Gunzhard wrote:

Uhh BA were 'on top of the ladder' in 5th for a cup of coffee, and as for telling Codex marines players to just play BA and feel bad - Yeah I don't think that actually happened,

Lol, I was living in TN at the time of 5th and BA being at/near the top of the power boards, and the resident TFG and BA player actually did do this on a number of occasions. Especially on the weekend when he happened to overhear me saying to another player that I was thinking about dusting off my Raven Guard army ideas, and came over to give me that "advice" completely unsolicited.

Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Uhh BA were 'on top of the ladder' in 5th for a cup of coffee, and as for telling Codex marines players to just play BA and feel bad - Yeah I don't think that actually happened,

Lol, I was living in TN at the time of 5th and BA being at/near the top of the power boards, and the resident TFG and BA player actually did do this on a number of occasions. Especially on the weekend when he happened to overhear me saying to another player that I was thinking about dusting off my Raven Guard army ideas, and came over to give me that "advice" completely unsolicited.

Okay great. And Eldar players have been doing this since 1994.

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Ask any BT players around during 4th and 5th. I'm sure a very hefty few will be happy to elaborate. And maybe, just maybe, as a BA player for 15 years I don't want to see DC go. Maybe I think SG is one of the coolest units in the game and I don't want them gone either. Really the only BA unit I don't think anyone would miss is probably the Baal pred. At the very least you can bet your happy sack that they would gut the characters section that I know and love. If folded I can see Dante, Mephy and MAYBE Seth sticking around. I mean it's kind of a moot point at the moment because Tycho, Corbulo, Sanguinor, DC Tycho and Lemartes are all so godawful I've never seen any of the above on a table since our "update" dropped. However, that doesn't invalidate their existence due to some misguided sense of envy from xenos players or superiority from C:SM players.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Happy with BT? They got shafted in the FAQ - can't take their special units in a Gladius.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

No but you'll barely get a mention compared to the super special ULTRAMARINES!

 Frozocrone wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Happy with BT? They got shafted in the FAQ - can't take their special units in a Gladius.

Way harder than that. When they lost their book they lost 3 characters, half a dozen pages of fluff and all but 1 of their unique units.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Ask any BT players around during 4th and 5th. I'm sure a very hefty few will be happy to elaborate. And maybe, just maybe, as a BA player for 15 years I don't want to see DC go. Maybe I think SG is one of the coolest units in the game and I don't want them gone either. Really the only BA unit I don't think anyone would miss is probably the Baal pred. At the very least you can bet your happy sack that they would gut the characters section that I know and love. If folded I can see Dante, Mephy and MAYBE Seth sticking around. I mean it's kind of a moot point at the moment because Tycho, Corbulo, Sanguinor, DC Tycho and Lemartes are all so godawful I've never seen any of the above on a table since our "update" dropped. However, that doesn't invalidate their existence due to some misguided sense of envy from xenos players or superiority from C:SM players.

If you read my posts, for the 4th time (at least) I said you would keep at least a few special units and unique characters from the previous dex. And since there isn't any 5th edition BT players here care to enlighten me? And as you said even yourself, this is a tabletop wargame, why would a unit exist if no one is putting it on the table? It's not like anyone liked that god awful Corbulo model anyways. What makes Blood Angels so special they need a seperate codex? (Keep in mind my notion for them to get the BT treatment and keep some units)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Happy with BT? They got shafted in the FAQ - can't take their special units in a Gladius.

Way harder than that. When they lost their book they lost 3 characters, half a dozen pages of fluff and all but 1 of their unique units.

And how many were shoehorned in there to justify a standalone codex? I don't think Castellan Bob deserves his own dataslate.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Happy with BT? They got shafted in the FAQ - can't take their special units in a Gladius.

did you really expect that they'd be able to take a crusader squad in a gladius?

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Ask any BT players around during 4th and 5th. I'm sure a very hefty few will be happy to elaborate. And maybe, just maybe, as a BA player for 15 years I don't want to see DC go. Maybe I think SG is one of the coolest units in the game and I don't want them gone either. Really the only BA unit I don't think anyone would miss is probably the Baal pred. At the very least you can bet your happy sack that they would gut the characters section that I know and love. If folded I can see Dante, Mephy and MAYBE Seth sticking around. I mean it's kind of a moot point at the moment because Tycho, Corbulo, Sanguinor, DC Tycho and Lemartes are all so godawful I've never seen any of the above on a table since our "update" dropped. However, that doesn't invalidate their existence due to some misguided sense of envy from xenos players or superiority from C:SM players.

If you read my posts, for the 4th time (at least) I said you would keep at least a few special units and unique characters from the previous dex. And since there isn't any 5th edition BT players here care to enlighten me? And as you said even yourself, this is a tabletop wargame, why would a unit exist if no one is putting it on the table? It's not like anyone liked that god awful Corbulo model anyways. What makes Blood Angels so special they need a seperate codex? (Keep in mind my notion for them to get the BT treatment and keep some units)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Happy with BT? They got shafted in the FAQ - can't take their special units in a Gladius.

Way harder than that. When they lost their book they lost 3 characters, half a dozen pages of fluff and all but 1 of their unique units.

And how many were shoehorned in there to justify a standalone codex? I don't think Castellan Bob deserves his own dataslate.

It's been a seriously long week so please forgive me if I don't recall the content of the thread on a gaming forum post for post. And keep SOME of their units? BT kept A unit and 1/3 of their SCs. Even then BA have a lot more in the way of content to shave and butcher than the BT did. Most of it going back to 2nd edition. I really don't understand why people are so hung up on this idea. All it does is piss people off and complicate things exponentially (not to mention knock a good chunk of potential sales away which is why it won't ever happen ) Like I said in an earlier post of my own, I'd be alright with a C:SM and an expansion book that contains the fluff, characters and units of all the snowflake chapters. Nobody deserves the BT treatment, especially armies with 2 or 3 times the content to lose.

I'm looks at the last standalone BT codex now... and I'm not seeing any special characters other than Grimaldus and Helbrecht.

The only things they lost were Sword Brethren (arguably Vanguard Veterans are them in all but name), Terminator Command Squads (because GW thinks that's now a DA-only thing) and the specials vows and other rules which made them special, which is the main issue most BT players have because they lost those cool rules and gained the worst or second worst (depending on who you ask Raven Guard are sometimes said to be the worst) Chapter Tactics.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I'm looks at the last standalone BT codex now... and I'm not seeing any special characters other than Grimaldus and Helbrecht.

The only things they lost were Sword Brethren (arguably Vanguard Veterans are them in all but name), Terminator Command Squads (because GW thinks that's now a DA-only thing) and the specials vows and other rules which made them special, which is the main issue most BT players have because they lost those cool rules and gained the worst or second worst (depending on who you ask Raven Guard are sometimes said to be the worst) Chapter Tactics.

My mistake. My buddy ran BT for a long time and he's got 5 named BT characters. Idk if they were GW limited releases or what, but regardless, it's pretty lame you had to lose that much when certain chapters have gotten multiple supplements on top of their toys in the vanilla dex. I don't understand at all why the assimilation crowd is cool with these but have to have BA and DA folded because "too many astartes books".

If I had it my way there wouldn't be supplements. Perhaps campaign books, but I don't see why GW can't just put it in the book off the get-go. However, I'm in GW's mindset and the only way BA would get extra special bits is if it was in a supplement.

niv-mizzet wrote:Really the most genius thing they could ever do is:

-Release space marine dex with all the basic units, formations, and chapter tactics for all the chapters, including the ones that used to be separate books. No named characters, no chapter specific traits, powers, relics or anything.

-Have a small softback supplement for each chapter with the named characters, special units, traits, powers, relics, and their own voltron-formation, as well as data sheets for formations that are unique to their chapter. (Like any involving death company for BA, for example.)

-printin' dat money.

This is what I would do, if done well and properly I don't think people would mind. Actually scratch that, I would have the basic codex (along with all the other factions) available free online like warscrolls. Then all the formations, decurion detachments and added stuff would be in supplements or campaign books.

You can field a basic marine army of any flavour from the base rules, but you want to run Calgar at the head of a Gladius? Well you need to buy the Warriors of Macragge supplement. You want to run Tycho at the head of the blood Angels Gladius thingy, then get the Baal supplement and so on. I'd be more than happy with that.

Same with the Tau, Eldar etc. The free online codex can build you the basic CAD, with your basic units. The supplements have the formations, special characters and formations.

insaniak wrote:
They did this in 3rd edition. It was fairly universally reviled.

People hated having to buy multiple books to play a single army.

People already do this now. Look at things like the Cadia supplement and Angels of Death.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I'm looks at the last standalone BT codex now... and I'm not seeing any special characters other than Grimaldus and Helbrecht.

The only things they lost were Sword Brethren (arguably Vanguard Veterans are them in all but name), Terminator Command Squads (because GW thinks that's now a DA-only thing) and the specials vows and other rules which made them special, which is the main issue most BT players have because they lost those cool rules and gained the worst or second worst (depending on who you ask Raven Guard are sometimes said to be the worst) Chapter Tactics.

My mistake. My buddy ran BT for a long time and he's got 5 named BT characters. Idk if they were GW limited releases or what, but regardless, it's pretty lame you had to lose that much when certain chapters have gotten multiple supplements on top of their toys in the vanilla dex. I don't understand at all why the assimilation crowd is cool with these but have to have BA and DA folded because "too many astartes books".

what chapters have gotten multiple supplements? keep in mind that everything in sentinals of terra etc is pretty much moved into angels of death