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What blows my mind is that GW apparently thought that releasing a supplement for the 3rd company of the Imperial Fists was more important than a Black Templars supplement. I mean, it's one company in one of the most Codex-adherent Chapters in the fluff, why is that supplement-worthy? Salamanders I could've understood, or any of the other non-UM Chapters in the Codex, but IF 3rd company?!

Most BA/Da units could be in the main codex without increasing the page count.
Give honour guard and command squads option for bikes/jump packs/t-armour
Give vanguard the option for bikes
Give ironclads curiosity weapon options
Librarian dreads added to venture dread option
Add chief Librarian and Chaplain Lord upgrades
Mixed terminator weapons + plasma cannons.
Add Ball weapons to the standard predator

That leaves only special characters, deaths in Knights and death company (Inc dreads) as unique units like template squads.

The heavy lands peelers could easily be include which then only really leaves the Da flyers and BA priest floating about.

So maybe have a standard book with no special units/characters and the basic formation. Then have an updated angels of death boom with all the unique stuff.

ScarVet101 wrote:
Most BA/Da units could be in the main codex without increasing the page count.
Give honour guard and command squads option for bikes/jump packs/t-armour
Give vanguard the option for bikes
Give ironclads curiosity weapon options
Librarian dreads added to venture dread option
Add chief Librarian and Chaplain Lord upgrades
Mixed terminator weapons + plasma cannons.
Add Ball weapons to the standard predator

That leaves only special characters, deaths in Knights and death company (Inc dreads) as unique units like template squads.

The heavy lands peelers could easily be include which then only really leaves the Da flyers and BA priest floating about.

So maybe have a standard book with no special units/characters and the basic formation. Then have an updated angels of death boom with all the unique stuff.

I support this, but just to be devil's advocate, would this not just buff marines more by giving EVERYONE what only BA nad DA had? Or are you saying their chapter tactics would lock it away?

Tbh I dunno why they didn't simply have supplement codexes like they did for BA back in third.

As a mostly codex adherent chapter they should get the majority of the vanilla codex, but they do have enough for a mini supplement codex.

Okay it's a pain having two books, but if they return the supplements having a much cheaper price I dunno if it would really be a massive issue. Or maybe have a space marine offer, buy the codex and a get started BA box, get the supplement free?

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

ScarVet101 wrote:
Most BA/Da units could be in the main codex without increasing the page count.
Give honour guard and command squads option for bikes/jump packs/t-armour
Give vanguard the option for bikes
Give ironclads curiosity weapon options
Librarian dreads added to venture dread option
Add chief Librarian and Chaplain Lord upgrades
Mixed terminator weapons + plasma cannons.
Add Ball weapons to the standard predator

That leaves only special characters, deaths in Knights and death company (Inc dreads) as unique units like template squads.

The heavy lands peelers could easily be include which then only really leaves the Da flyers and BA priest floating about.

So maybe have a standard book with no special units/characters and the basic formation. Then have an updated angels of death boom with all the unique stuff.

I support this, but just to be devil's advocate, would this not just buff marines more by giving EVERYONE what only BA nad DA had? Or are you saying their chapter tactics would lock it away?

It probably needs some tweaks, personally I'm happy with seperate Terminator and Assault terminator units so that was more to show how Deathwing can be slotted straight in. It would also only be the weapons, not the speed from Baal predators (maybe a BA only vehicle upgrade)
Honour Guard & command squads should probably be linked to a character eg you can only have terminator honour guard if there is a Chapter master in terminator armour too. Then Venguard on bikes would fit for elite white scars.

The other items would need to be balanced but they should be workable. Any suggested amendments?

A chief librarian and supreme chaplain upgrades would probably be, say, 40 points and they get an extra initiative, WS, BS, and wound? And a chief lib could pay another 25 points for ML3, or he comes stock with it. Iron clad could instead by siege claw things resembling blood talons, which confer shred? Rampage if BA? It's hard to implement pre-existing rules without bloating the SM codex and still keep their flavour.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

ScarVet101 wrote:
Most BA/Da units could be in the main codex without increasing the page count.
Give honour guard and command squads option for bikes/jump packs/t-armour
Give vanguard the option for bikes
Give ironclads curiosity weapon options
Librarian dreads added to venture dread option
Add chief Librarian and Chaplain Lord upgrades
Mixed terminator weapons + plasma cannons.
Add Ball weapons to the standard predator

That leaves only special characters, deaths in Knights and death company (Inc dreads) as unique units like template squads.

The heavy lands peelers could easily be include which then only really leaves the Da flyers and BA priest floating about.

So maybe have a standard book with no special units/characters and the basic formation. Then have an updated angels of death boom with all the unique stuff.

I support this, but just to be devil's advocate, would this not just buff marines more by giving EVERYONE what only BA nad DA had? Or are you saying their chapter tactics would lock it away?

Not necessarily. One could go the Chaos 3.5 route and have a small section for each of the notable chapters, that in few pages details chapter traits, restrictions, gimmicks and special characters. If it could be done in 2004, I don't why it can't be done now.

You could also split all the chapter specific stuff out into a new "Angels of Death" book - Fluff, special characters, units and Formations.

You could actual take 30+ pages out of the current codex doing this which is plenty of room for the few units which can't just be merged into others. It also gives room for other chapters to get a special unit.

Smells like click bait.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

I support this, but just to be devil's advocate, would this not just buff marines more by giving EVERYONE what only BA nad DA had? Or are you saying their chapter tactics would lock it away?

Chapter Tactics and Chapter-specific formations should be more than sufficient to differentiate the different flavours of marines. They don't need to all have access to different dreadnought weapons.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
I've read the BA codex a few times, and from what I've seen there is nothing really new compared to the vanilla marine dex. You've got sanguinary guard, death co. dread and troops, lib dread, sanguinary priest and furioso. Not counting special characters.

Now before you start beating me over the head that I'm evil for suggesting that someones models become obsolete, but hear me out.

The BA codex doesn't have much going for it, it has their angry dreads etc. But I don't see how this couldn't be replicated in the vanilla dex by just giving them special rules for being BA or just throwing them in the dumpster. The Sanguinary Guard and Death Company, arguably the most memorable units, and dante would stay in there as HQ choices and elite choices, think what happened to Black Templars.

This would boost the BA's power level and make them simpler. (The less books the better, look at cult mech and skitarii) They'd get centurions, stormtalons, etc. etc.

But what about the other marine dexes, I hear you say!

Space Wolves are vastly different, I'd die if I saw a grey hunter not holding a chainsword (i.e. wulfen, ccw options, T cav, different tactics) Grey Knights aren't even in the same postal code with brotherhood of psykers, dark angels could arguably be in the same boat actually, just give them skilled rider or something.

Dakka's input?

BTW, this is very much a fledgling idea, I just came up with it and though I'd throw it up on the boards

Blood Angel Chapter Tactics:

All rhino chassis models gain "Fast."

Red Thirst: roll a d6 for every unit at the beginning of the game, if a 1 is rolled they gain Rage.

"Black Rage" upgrade gives a model Rage, Furious Charge and Fearless. Can be given to any Vanguard Veteran squad or Dreadnought unit.

Honor Guard can take jump packs (mutually exclusive with bikes, etc). (Sanguinary Guard)

Predators can be upgraded to Baal predators.

Hand-flamers, etc, can just be folded into the main armory. An extra entry for the special dreadnought CCW. Librarian/ Chaplain Dreads should be introduced into the Codex proper.

For Dark Angels Chapter Tactics:

Bikes re-roll jink saves, get furious charge and Rending on the charge (their uber hammers).

Terminators deep-strike with Drop Pod Assault. Termi squads can buy a plasma cannon/ maces of redemption and your command squad can be upgraded to have terminator armor.

Stubborn, over-watch at BS2 unless you jinked.

Migrate the Land Speeder. Migrate the fighter.

The differences pretty much end there. The only other special thing about either army is names of units, and a handful of pieces of wargear that are superficially special (plasma talons are just plasma guns, make their hammers a unit-wide rule, the "command" variant is easily just an upgrade that was made into a unit for bloating purposes).

Space Wolves, on the other hand, do have a wide variety of model differences, but could also easily be brought into the fold of C:SM.

Acute Senses, Counter-attack.

Tactical Squads get CCW and replace the "Choose a Heavy Weapon" with "Choose a Special Weapon" if 10-man.

Devastators get Split-fire.

Vanguard Veterans can be upgraded to Thunderwolf Cav (+1 S, +1T, +1A, cavalry). Mutually exclusive with jetpacks.

Special entry for Dreadnought shield/ axe. Migrate blood claws, jump packs/ bikes are upgrades.

Migrate wulfen, their flyer and their frost guns. Just re-roll their melee weapons into generic weapons (they're just fancy looking :/).

It is doable. But the Space Wolf version requires more unique special rule distribution and toning down of chapter-specific upgrades, otherwise their entry will be massive as far as unique wargear is concerned. One could easily just give their power weapons/ claws/ thunder hammers the frosty special rule as an optional upgrade for 10 points (+1S, AP2 if not already AP2 for PW) (+1S, Rending for LC) (Toughness Test or removed from game for TH). Wolf Pelts, etc, will probably get toned down even further and become isolated relics.

It is possible but is more finnicky. Dark Angels are slightly less finnicky. But Blood Angels are by far the easiest swap-over.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, BA and DA have an outstanding history different from the vanilla chapters. It would not be wise to subsume them into the vanilla codex. But game-wise GW should take more care of their codices.

Not really. Mechanically, their power armoured squads follow the same format as everyone else and their story is the same as all other loyalist chapter in broad strokes- killing xenos and mutants and heretics.
They certainly deserve separate black library novels.

Similarly, Space Wolves have different names for their assault squads, they are still assault squads. Their Devastator squads are the same as loyalists. Their Hunter squads are the same as tactical squads.
The differences can be summarised on the bottom of a page in C:SM

Chapter Tactics: Space Wolves
Space wolves like to call their weapons different things. Substitute 'Frost' and 'Wolf' liberally anywhere you see 'power' or 'storm' terminology- a Terminator Sergeant may carry a Wolf-sword and Frost-bolter for example. No in-game effect.

- An Assault squad with Chapter tactics: Space Wolves have WS 3 and BS 3, but have rage. Devastators with Chapter tactics: Space Wolves have split fire and Ld 9. Tactical squads with Chapter tactics: Space Wolves.... may purchase chainswords at 2ppm.

Everything else, fold back into the codex. Terminator sergeants can be taken by wolves and IH again, Tacticals can take 2 specials at 10.
Air wolves become styled storm ravens, frost cannons(!) are just lascannons.

 Kraytirous wrote:
Space Wolves, on the other hand, do have a wide variety of model differences, but could also easily be brought into the fold of C:SM.

Acute Senses, Counter-attack.

Tactical Squads get CCW and replace the "Choose a Heavy Weapon" with "Choose a Special Weapon" if 10-man.

Devastators get Split-fire.

Vanguard Veterans can be upgraded to Thunderwolf Cav (+1 S, +1T, +1A, cavalry). Mutually exclusive with jetpacks.

Special entry for Dreadnought shield/ axe. Migrate blood claws, jump packs/ bikes are upgrades.

Migrate wulfen, their flyer and their frost guns. Just re-roll their melee weapons into generic weapons (they're just fancy looking :/).

It is doable. But the Space Wolf version requires more unique special rule distribution and toning down of chapter-specific upgrades, otherwise their entry will be massive as far as unique wargear is concerned. One could easily just give their power weapons/ claws/ thunder hammers the frosty special rule as an optional upgrade for 10 points (+1S, AP2 if not already AP2 for PW) (+1S, Rending for LC) (Toughness Test or removed from game for TH). Wolf Pelts, etc, will probably get toned down even further and become isolated relics.

It is possible but is more finnicky. Dark Angels are slightly less finnicky. But Blood Angels are by far the easiest swap-over.

The problem with the Space Wolves is that their stat lines are different so the "Space Wolves chapter tactics" would require a lot of individual entry changes that just starts to get bloated and sloppy. The Wolves are not Codex Astartes compliant and should be separated. Blood Claws for example have rage, lower WS/BS, cheaper, and can be in bigger unit size which would be a wordy entry change for assault marines and bikes (and normalizing them to the same stats as vanilla assault marines would be a terrible idea). Their melee weapons are also different stats (frost axe being 1 higher strength and 2H for example), particularly the wolf claws which have higher strength which makes them way better than lightning claws. I just don't see how Space Wolves can be rolled into C:SM without it being a train wreck of modifiers and stat line overrides without losing the feel of the Space Wolves codex.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What blows my mind is that GW apparently thought that releasing a supplement for the 3rd company of the Imperial Fists was more important than a Black Templars supplement. I mean, it's one company in one of the most Codex-adherent Chapters in the fluff, why is that supplement-worthy? Salamanders I could've understood, or any of the other non-UM Chapters in the Codex, but IF 3rd company?!

I agree. on the other hand, IFs special rules where in part allowing for greater use of centurions, so my guess is they did it because they really wanted to push centurion mini sales

ScarVet101 wrote:You could also split all the chapter specific stuff out into a new "Angels of Death" book - Fluff, special characters, units and Formations.

You could actual take 30+ pages out of the current codex doing this which is plenty of room for the few units which can't just be merged into others. It also gives room for other chapters to get a special unit.

Yeah, plenty have people have suggested that, so maybe it's the best route to go...

Red Marine wrote:Smells like click bait.

Is that a Blood Angel on your profile?

Kraytirous wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
I've read the BA codex a few times, and from what I've seen there is nothing really new compared to the vanilla marine dex. You've got sanguinary guard, death co. dread and troops, lib dread, sanguinary priest and furioso. Not counting special characters.

Now before you start beating me over the head that I'm evil for suggesting that someones models become obsolete, but hear me out.

The BA codex doesn't have much going for it, it has their angry dreads etc. But I don't see how this couldn't be replicated in the vanilla dex by just giving them special rules for being BA or just throwing them in the dumpster. The Sanguinary Guard and Death Company, arguably the most memorable units, and dante would stay in there as HQ choices and elite choices, think what happened to Black Templars.

This would boost the BA's power level and make them simpler. (The less books the better, look at cult mech and skitarii) They'd get centurions, stormtalons, etc. etc.

But what about the other marine dexes, I hear you say!

Space Wolves are vastly different, I'd die if I saw a grey hunter not holding a chainsword (i.e. wulfen, ccw options, T cav, different tactics) Grey Knights aren't even in the same postal code with brotherhood of psykers, dark angels could arguably be in the same boat actually, just give them skilled rider or something.

Dakka's input?

BTW, this is very much a fledgling idea, I just came up with it and though I'd throw it up on the boards

Blood Angel Chapter Tactics:

All rhino chassis models gain "Fast."

Red Thirst: roll a d6 for every unit at the beginning of the game, if a 1 is rolled they gain Rage.

"Black Rage" upgrade gives a model Rage, Furious Charge and Fearless. Can be given to any Vanguard Veteran squad or Dreadnought unit.

Honor Guard can take jump packs (mutually exclusive with bikes, etc). (Sanguinary Guard)

Predators can be upgraded to Baal predators.

Hand-flamers, etc, can just be folded into the main armory. An extra entry for the special dreadnought CCW. Librarian/ Chaplain Dreads should be introduced into the Codex proper.

For Dark Angels Chapter Tactics:

Bikes re-roll jink saves, get furious charge and Rending on the charge (their uber hammers).

Terminators deep-strike with Drop Pod Assault. Termi squads can buy a plasma cannon/ maces of redemption and your command squad can be upgraded to have terminator armor.

Stubborn, over-watch at BS2 unless you jinked.

Migrate the Land Speeder. Migrate the fighter.

The differences pretty much end there. The only other special thing about either army is names of units, and a handful of pieces of wargear that are superficially special (plasma talons are just plasma guns, make their hammers a unit-wide rule, the "command" variant is easily just an upgrade that was made into a unit for bloating purposes).

Space Wolves, on the other hand, do have a wide variety of model differences, but could also easily be brought into the fold of C:SM.

Acute Senses, Counter-attack.

Tactical Squads get CCW and replace the "Choose a Heavy Weapon" with "Choose a Special Weapon" if 10-man.

Devastators get Split-fire.

Vanguard Veterans can be upgraded to Thunderwolf Cav (+1 S, +1T, +1A, cavalry). Mutually exclusive with jetpacks.

Special entry for Dreadnought shield/ axe. Migrate blood claws, jump packs/ bikes are upgrades.

Migrate wulfen, their flyer and their frost guns. Just re-roll their melee weapons into generic weapons (they're just fancy looking :/).

It is doable. But the Space Wolf version requires more unique special rule distribution and toning down of chapter-specific upgrades, otherwise their entry will be massive as far as unique wargear is concerned. One could easily just give their power weapons/ claws/ thunder hammers the frosty special rule as an optional upgrade for 10 points (+1S, AP2 if not already AP2 for PW) (+1S, Rending for LC) (Toughness Test or removed from game for TH). Wolf Pelts, etc, will probably get toned down even further and become isolated relics.

It is possible but is more finnicky. Dark Angels are slightly less finnicky. But Blood Angels are by far the easiest swap-over.

Yeah, that was my problem. Wolves just have too many rules and units to assimilate.

Vankraken wrote:

 Kraytirous wrote:
Space Wolves, on the other hand, do have a wide variety of model differences, but could also easily be brought into the fold of C:SM.

Acute Senses, Counter-attack.

Tactical Squads get CCW and replace the "Choose a Heavy Weapon" with "Choose a Special Weapon" if 10-man.

Devastators get Split-fire.

Vanguard Veterans can be upgraded to Thunderwolf Cav (+1 S, +1T, +1A, cavalry). Mutually exclusive with jetpacks.

Special entry for Dreadnought shield/ axe. Migrate blood claws, jump packs/ bikes are upgrades.

Migrate wulfen, their flyer and their frost guns. Just re-roll their melee weapons into generic weapons (they're just fancy looking :/).

It is doable. But the Space Wolf version requires more unique special rule distribution and toning down of chapter-specific upgrades, otherwise their entry will be massive as far as unique wargear is concerned. One could easily just give their power weapons/ claws/ thunder hammers the frosty special rule as an optional upgrade for 10 points (+1S, AP2 if not already AP2 for PW) (+1S, Rending for LC) (Toughness Test or removed from game for TH). Wolf Pelts, etc, will probably get toned down even further and become isolated relics.

It is possible but is more finnicky. Dark Angels are slightly less finnicky. But Blood Angels are by far the easiest swap-over.

The problem with the Space Wolves is that their stat lines are different so the "Space Wolves chapter tactics" would require a lot of individual entry changes that just starts to get bloated and sloppy. The Wolves are not Codex Astartes compliant and should be separated. Blood Claws for example have rage, lower WS/BS, cheaper, and can be in bigger unit size which would be a wordy entry change for assault marines and bikes (and normalizing them to the same stats as vanilla assault marines would be a terrible idea). Their melee weapons are also different stats (frost axe being 1 higher strength and 2H for example), particularly the wolf claws which have higher strength which makes them way better than lightning claws. I just don't see how Space Wolves can be rolled into C:SM without it being a train wreck of modifiers and stat line overrides without losing the feel of the Space Wolves codex.

Yeah, the changes are pretty huge. That's why I say keep them in their own dex.

 Vankraken wrote:
Blood Claws for example have rage, lower WS/BS, cheaper, and can be in bigger unit size which would be a wordy entry change for assault marines and bikes (and normalizing them to the same stats as vanilla assault marines would be a terrible idea).

Once upon a time Blood Claws were in squads of 10 like everyone else... and with regular Marine scouts now being WS/BS4, there's no real reason for Blood Claws (who are essentially Scouts in power armour) to have a lower BS or WS. They were only lower because Scouts were.

Their melee weapons are also different stats (frost axe being 1 higher strength and 2H for example), particularly the wolf claws which have higher strength which makes them way better than lightning claws.

None of which are really required, or which could be rolled into a form of generic 'relic' weapon available to everyone.

I don't see how keeping them separate is a problem, just update them when they need it. I'm really at a point where I just want to be able to point at a book and say, "that has all the rules for X army in it I need." As opposed to the rules being spread across 4 codexes, 8 white dwarfs, and two forge world books We're back to the point where you have to carry around a stack of books just to run a standard army. I seem to remember that they at least use to gather all the white dwarf rules in the chapter approved books at the end of a year to cut back on the bulk.

If that means every different chapter gets a book, fine, just so long as I can look at my opponents army and know all the rules for everything he/she is using is sitting in front of them in one, maybe two source books. When 6th edition started doing supplements I thought it was great. One book has all the basics while the supplement has the flavor. Nothing wrong with that.

Make a TRULY generic space marine codex. Then pump out supplements like candy to cover the unique ones with special units, and the special rules. It has the added benefit of keeping the core units all the same across the board, and letting GW sell more books to us (in the form of supplements, not really a benefit to us, but hey it keeps them happy).

While I personally love the campaign books, for the fluff they add, I found the addition of rules in them confusing, and still do, as people keep asking if they can use the things out of them for something other than what I thought they were written for.

I thought the raven guard stuff was raven guard, and I thought the white scars stuff was white scars. I believe some of the formations out of those books can be used by other chapters, and that starts to make things unnecessarily convoluted.

TLDR They can keep their separate books if they want them. Just please bring the rules for armies back into a few easy to find sources…

I am generally in favor of reducing the number of Space Marine Codices. My ideal number would be 2: Chaos and Loyalist.

But you probably should take that with a grain of salt, as I'm a bit grumpy over the amount of attention the Space Marines get compared to the other factions.

 Pouncey wrote:
I am generally in favor of reducing the number of Space Marine Codices. My ideal number would be 2: Chaos and Loyalist.

I'm going to have to disagree with this in the sense that these two core codeces (one for Chaos, one for the Loyalists) are the only nooks they're going to need.

I'm in the boat where there's a core Space Marines Codex (which would include a whole bunch of generic Chapter Tactics, Generic Relics, Generic Warlord Traits, Generic Everything haha), and then have supplements for all the big Chapters such as Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templars, Ultramarines, White Scars, etc etc. Similar sort of thing for Chaos as well: Core Codex for Chaos with supplements for either all four Chaos Gods, all nine Traitor Legions, or something along those lines. I know people get all whingy about buying more than one book, but lets be honest: With the current system you have to have at least two (Rules + Your Army's Codex), and a good working knowledge of other codeces goes a long way.

 Pouncey wrote:
But you probably should take that with a grain of salt, as I'm a bit grumpy over the amount of attention the Space Marines get compared to the other factions.

As a Space Marine player, I feel the same sentiment: Space Marines get too much attention.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I am generally in favor of reducing the number of Space Marine Codices. My ideal number would be 2: Chaos and Loyalist.

I'm going to have to disagree with this in the sense that these two core codeces (one for Chaos, one for the Loyalists) are the only nooks they're going to need.

I'm in the boat where there's a core Space Marines Codex (which would include a whole bunch of generic Chapter Tactics, Generic Relics, Generic Warlord Traits, Generic Everything haha), and then have supplements for all the big Chapters such as Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templars, Ultramarines, White Scars, etc etc. Similar sort of thing for Chaos as well: Core Codex for Chaos with supplements for either all four Chaos Gods, all nine Traitor Legions, or something along those lines. I know people get all whingy about buying more than one book, but lets be honest: With the current system you have to have at least two (Rules + Your Army's Codex), and a good working knowledge of other codeces goes a long way.

 Pouncey wrote:
But you probably should take that with a grain of salt, as I'm a bit grumpy over the amount of attention the Space Marines get compared to the other factions.

As a Space Marine player, I feel the same sentiment: Space Marines get too much attention.

I don't think my preferred army even has any supplements... or a wide enough variety of lore to make supplements possible without a huge amount of "pulling out of thin air" of lore to justify those supplements' creation.

 insaniak wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Blood Claws for example have rage, lower WS/BS, cheaper, and can be in bigger unit size which would be a wordy entry change for assault marines and bikes (and normalizing them to the same stats as vanilla assault marines would be a terrible idea).

Once upon a time Blood Claws were in squads of 10 like everyone else... and with regular Marine scouts now being WS/BS4, there's no real reason for Blood Claws (who are essentially Scouts in power armour) to have a lower BS or WS. They were only lower because Scouts were.

The appealing thing about Blood Claws currently is that they have rage and are cheaper while still retaining their power armor. They work because of how cheap they are and normalizing them to vanilla stat line would just make them worse and boring. Same for Skyclaws who are as cheap as tac marines but have jump packs. The trade off between WS and points cost + rage makes them play different than vanilla assault marines while it also differentiates their battlefield role more from TWC, Grey Hunters, and Wolf Guard.

 insaniak wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Their melee weapons are also different stats (frost axe being 1 higher strength and 2H for example), particularly the wolf claws which have higher strength which makes them way better than lightning claws.

None of which are really required, or which could be rolled into a form of generic 'relic' weapon available to everyone.

Sure it isn't required but it is a character aspect of the codex which makes space wolves feel different than their MEQ brethren. While I don't recall ever seeing a Frost Axe/Sword being used in recent history but Wolf Claws see a lot of use unlike lightning claws which aren't nearly as common. Again it comes down to the argument that removing these things takes away that bit of flavor to the army and if your try to preserve those elements if they were to be rolled into C:SM then it would make the SW chapter tactics turn into a massive change log which goes well beyond the likes of Iron Hands or Raven Guard chapter tactics.

All the special rules and units for ALL the different marine flavours could be covered in a single codex.

Doesnt mean it will

I'm cool with multiple codices. I like how marines have different flavours, often different enough to warrant a completely separate book.

If I'm going to be playing against marines 90% of the time, they should at least be different.

 Pouncey wrote:
I don't think my preferred army even has any supplements... or a wide enough variety of lore to make supplements possible without a huge amount of "pulling out of thin air" of lore to justify those supplements' creation.

In that case, a supplement that groups sub-factions that don't necessarily have enough material to warrant their own supplement but aren't generic sub-factions either is in order.

 Vankraken wrote:

Sure it isn't required but it is a character aspect of the codex which makes space wolves feel different than their MEQ brethren.

What makes wolves feel different is being covered in wolf bling and their organisation. They don't have any equipment that should be unique to them- excepting perhaps dogsleds.

They've had +1 power swords since 3rd ed and there's never been an adequate examination of why they are necessary. They seem like an excuse for Wolves to carry chainswords/axes (barbaric!) but still cut through armour.

The fluff behind Frost-Blades is at least consistent with Gore-Child- exotic space monsters have teeth that cut better than the usual adamantium/carbon alloy, you kill the monster and use its teeth in a sword.
However Gore Child's existence shows that such monsters aren't unique to Fenris. Death-Worlds exist throughout the galaxy and are filled with such lethal creatures. Lots of Chapters recruit from death-worlds- its noted that death-worlders are preferable for many chapters.

The newer stuff like Wolf Claws doesn't have any rationale beyond 'we wolfed it up'. They put runes on it, so it hits harder? That shouldn't work unless they are Dwarves, Eldar or Chaos, or perhaps sisters.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm cool with multiple codices. I like how marines have different flavours, often different enough to warrant a completely separate book.

If I'm going to be playing against marines 90% of the time, they should at least be different.

Shame it does not currently apply to any other faction?

Imperial Guard have much more diversity than Marines
Chaos Marines - both former Legions and newer renegades
Eldar - Craftworlds fight in their own way.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I don't think my preferred army even has any supplements... or a wide enough variety of lore to make supplements possible without a huge amount of "pulling out of thin air" of lore to justify those supplements' creation.

In that case, a supplement that groups sub-factions that don't necessarily have enough material to warrant their own supplement but aren't generic sub-factions either is in order.

Sisters of Battle.

To my knowledge, no lore has set apart any one Order's preferred method of waging war distinctly apart from any other's.

I guess there's the various non-combat Orders like the Hospitallers. Not sure how you'd go about making an effective combat force out of power armored battlefield surgeons and torturers, but I'm sure it would be annoying as feth to try to kill despite the army-wide T3.

IMO there are too many Imperial armies.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
IMO there are too many Imperial armies.

Yeah, at one point like half the armies in the game were IoM.

Currently there are... :: checks :: 23 armies.

Of those... :: checks :: 13 are IoM.

And 6 armies are various Space Marine flavors, including Chaos Space Marines.

I didn't bother checking the dozens upon dozens of supplements, just going by the Army sections on GW's webstore.

So yeah, it's still the case then. Great. Way to go with the the Terran-centricism, GW, it's certainly a refreshing take on science fiction that has not been done far too many times...

Gw focuses on what sells, and the imperium sells.