Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If both S modifiers were from wargear, I would say it's 3 or 5 depending on the order you apply them.

Once the FAQ is taken into consideration, RAW is that they do indeed have a 3+ and a 5+, but I will eat my hat if I ever find a TO that lets it fly that way (with respect to grav).

 Jimsolo wrote:

Once the FAQ is taken into consideration, RAW is that they do indeed have a 3+ and a 5+, but I will eat my hat if I ever find a TO that lets it fly that way (with respect to grav).

I am definitely hoping this is the case. Luckily, I am one of the only Eldar players in my group, so if I never mention this issue and always "choose" the 3+ armour, no one may be the wiser.
Come to think of it, not many players use Grav in my area, so I may be lucky enough for this to not come up.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:
If both S modifiers were from wargear, I would say it's 3 or 5 depending on the order you apply them.

Once the FAQ is taken into consideration, RAW is that they do indeed have a 3+ and a 5+, but I will eat my hat if I ever find a TO that lets it fly that way (with respect to grav).

But that's the thing, right there : the FaQ does not apply to this discussion.
The windriders are either armor save 3+ or 5+ depending on the order the wargear applies. But they're not both (that's the key).

So the FaQ on grav vs units of mixed saves does not apply in this case because all your windriders are either 5+ or 3+ depending on modifier order. You don't have some models with a 5+ and some models with a 3+.
And the FaQ that allows you to choose which save is best only applies for when you are making a save roll (which is not the case as here we are talkning about to wound rolls for grav).

RabbitMaster wrote:But that's the thing, right there : the FaQ does not apply to this discussion.
The windriders are either armor save 3+ or 5+ depending on the order the wargear applies. But they're not both (that's the key).

So the FaQ on grav vs units of mixed saves does not apply in this case because all your windriders are either 5+ or 3+ depending on modifier order. You don't have some models with a 5+ and some models with a 3+.
And the FaQ that allows you to choose which save is best only applies for when you are making a save roll (which is not the case as here we are talkning about to wound rolls for grav).

If that is the case then they cancel each other out leaving them with nothing if we go by the GW FAQ on Lance vs Quantum Shielding.

There is no order of sequencing when it comes to these, and Set Value Modifiers do not carry any internal method of priority.

 Happyjew wrote:
Terminator armour does replace, but doesn't Artificer stack? In other words you would have Power Armour and Artificer Armour, for both a 2+ and 3+.

Isn't there a relic Terminator armour?

Yes and No. The Indomitus is artificer armor. Unless there is something in one of the SM factions that have their own codex or some FW codex.

There is no order as they occur at the same time. So technically the RAW break since when one is selected, the other was not when it must be. .

I think (although not saying OP would) that if you tried to claim a 5+ armour save and then starting doing armour saves from other attacks on 3+, you would quickly run out of people to play against.

I'm tempted to say flat 3+ across the board, since that's the base characteristic. Up to GW to FAQ the FAQ.

I cant do nothing but laugh at this entire thread, and I would do the exact same if I meet a player that pull something like this out on me at a tournament! I would lose just off the fact that I would laugh the entire game. I would not even get mad, I would play it that way and have the best story in the world!

I would be like this dude said his save was a 5+ vs grav but a 3+ vs bolters! So I told him that you rather die to the bolters instead of the grav, is it the 5+ or 3+ you cant have both!



On a serious note don't you have to pick your best save is that a rule somewhere or am I imagining stuff again?

 CKO wrote:
I cant do nothing but laugh at this entire thread, and I would do the exact same if I meet a player that pull something like this out on me at a tournament! I would lose just off the fact that I would laugh the entire game. I would not even get mad, I would play it that way and have the best story in the world!

I would be like this dude said his save was a 5+ vs grav but a 3+ vs bolters! So I told him that you rather die to the bolters instead of the grav, is it the 5+ or 3+ you cant have both!



On a serious note don't you have to pick your best save is that a rule somewhere or am I imagining stuff again?

You are not that's the origin of this discussion.

Someone asked GW on the FAQ draft if they can choose their armor save when giving 2 options, (on this case would you save on a 3+ or a 4+ rerollable like the dark angels ravenwing one)

FAQ said players can choose any of their available saves if they feel those saves will yield them bigger chance to survive.

Some TFG tried to find a loophole and claim that since guardians on jetbike have 5+ armor but jetbike grant 3+, they have access to both.

If they choose 5+ they would die to the bolters right? So either way they are screwed Centurions shoot 18 bolter shots, a tact squad has 8 bolter shots either way they will suffer maybe one of those math people can do the actual math for us!

 CKO wrote:
If they choose 5+ they would die to the bolters right? So either way they are screwed Centurions shoot 18 bolter shots, a tact squad has 8 bolter shots either way they will suffer maybe one of those math people can do the actual math for us!

The whole idea is that they will choose the 5+ to be wounded from the grav cannons and they will jink so they will get to save.

 CKO wrote:
If they choose 5+ they would die to the bolters right? So either way they are screwed Centurions shoot 18 bolter shots, a tact squad has 8 bolter shots either way they will suffer maybe one of those math people can do the actual math for us!

No because in effect they have a Mesh Armour save (5+) and a Jetbike Armour Save (3+) written into their rules.

The argument is that people are using the Mesh Armour save for the purposes of Grav and the Jetbike for anything else.

It's sort of like the Drop Pod doors ruling...poorly written.

This argument in some ways follows the old threads about upgrades and Marine Apothecaries. They are guardians with mesh armor (5+), but are on jet bikes. The entry for the jet bike says they are now save (3+) and change their unit type. Looking at that, and at their actual stat line (3+), I don't see how it could be argued that they still have a 5+ from their mesh armor. I acknowledge that their wargear lists mesh armor, but which takes precedent on order, their original mesh armor or the change they gained when they jumped on the bike. Up until grav weapons made their debut, I cannot ever recall a situation coming up where anyone would have even thought to argue that they still had their 5+. IMHO, it is not so much a case of a poorly written rule as much as it is rules creep that have never been changed or updated to reflect new weapons and their effects.

See. Here's the thing, go look at the BRB rules for bikes and jet bikes.

The stats for them are applied to the profile of any unit that has them built in, and the stats of the bike itself are for units that havery a choice to take them like HQs.

Windriders come with bikes, they have the stats built into their profile, making them a 3+ armor.

An HQ buys a bike, the stats of the bike are now applied to the model, boosting the armor to a 3+ save.

If your unit is on a bike your stats are modified to the bikes profile, either automatically in the unit entry, or by applying the bikes special rule.

You do not get "two different saves" because Being On the bike modifies your armor to 3. If you could get off the bike(which you can not) your armor would revert back to 5+.

So, I'm sorry but you have to take your bitter bitter Grav-Medicine like every other army.

I'm so sorry to everyone here saying that is a 3+ but the rules as currently written allow it. Personally, I think they should revert back to "best" save meaning the save with the numerically lowest value that still offers a saving throw to be made. This would fix this issue at the expense of Dark angels losing the ability to jink things their armor would normally save for them.

The bike does not 'change' or 'modify' your save to a 3+. It just gives you a 3+ save. The Mesh Armor gives you a 5+. (I believe a previous edition might have said that the bikes 'improved' or 'increased' the save, but I reread this edition's entry to make sure, and that isn't the case for 7th.)

RAI, no, I think the grav is supposed to wound on a 3. RAW, the targetted player's choice (unless there's an attached IC without Mesh Armor, such as. Farseer or Warlock, in which case the bike saves are more numerous and must be used for the grav wounding purposes).

If jet bikes are allowed to use their 5+ save rather than their 3+, if a situation occurred which called for the unit to roll against T, could they then choose to use their original toughness of 3 rather than the increase to 4 given by the jet bike? The BRB is specific that the toughness increase is included in their profile, so with that being the case, would not the 3+ save be the same, included in the base profile? In all locations in the Eldar codex, it has jet bikes with 3+ saves, the only way this comes into question is the barest fact that they are mentioned of having mesh armor. The 5+ given from that armor is not shown, talked about, or indicated anywhere in the profile and description of the jet bikes. The only reference is back to the war gear section and their base description of having it in the first place. There is not any example of a 5+/3+ type save to show that they have a save modified by anything. All indications are that it is 3+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the rules on the jet bike say that the model has a 3+ save, not that it gains a 3+ save. The wording 'has' would be to say that their save is now 3+ and not whatever it was before.
In this case, consider the wording of it as a set modifier. Where a model is told that under a certain condition, stats are modified to a set value (power fist is I 1), for example, the jet bike description in the war gear area of the codex sets the armor save to 3+ with the 'has' directive.

 Yarium wrote:
I'm so sorry to everyone here saying that is a 3+ but the rules as currently written allow it. Personally, I think they should revert back to "best" save meaning the save with the numerically lowest value that still offers a saving throw to be made. This would fix this issue at the expense of Dark angels losing the ability to jink things their armor would normally save for them.

The big issue is you're trying to argue something that doesn't apply.

"You must use the best save possible" except you aren't making a save, are you? No you aren't, and since you are not making a save, "you must use the best save possible" does not come into play.

Grav specifically says you wound against Armor of the target, what is the units Armor entry?
Windriders: 3+ per there unit entry.
HQ with Purchased jetbike: Base armor modified by the Upgrade Purchase to a 3+ per it's rules.

You wound against the models armor. There is no loophole about this you're trying to apply a rule where it doesn't belong, as you are not making a save at this point.

The models in these squads do not have differing armor, in any way. They all -have- 3+ per the bike, negating you any grounds for a choice.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

The big issue is you're trying to argue something that doesn't apply.

"You must use the best save possible" except you aren't making a save, are you? No you aren't, and since you are not making a save, "you must use the best save possible" does not come into play.

That's exactly what I said a few messages earlier, but a lot of people here didnt read it apparently.

There are 2 FaQ mentionned in this post:

Q: Warhammer 40,000: The Rules states that a model gets ‘the advantage of always using the best available save’. Does that mean we have to use the numerically lowest save, or do we have the option of using any save we have?
A: The controlling player can use their discretion as to which of their model’s saves is ‘the best’.

This FaQ is referring to p38 of the rulebook ("Models with more than one save") which applies when you are doing you save rolls. Here we are not doing save rolls; we are talking about To Wound rolls for a Grav weapon. So this FaQ doesnt apply here, get over it guys.

Next another one is mentionned:

Q: How do Graviton weapons work with units with mixed armour saves?
A: Use the armour save that is in the majority within the target unit (in the case of a tie, the player whose unit is under attack can choose which is used).

As stated before, it's not because you have two armor that you have two different armor save at the same time. The unit is not a unit of mixed armor saves, this FaQ does not apply.

 RabbitMaster wrote:

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

The big issue is you're trying to argue something that doesn't apply.

"You must use the best save possible" except you aren't making a save, are you? No you aren't, and since you are not making a save, "you must use the best save possible" does not come into play.

That's exactly what I said a few messages earlier, but a lot of people here didnt read it apparently.

There are 2 FaQ mentionned in this post:

Q: Warhammer 40,000: The Rules states that a model gets ‘the advantage of always using the best available save’. Does that mean we have to use the numerically lowest save, or do we have the option of using any save we have?
A: The controlling player can use their discretion as to which of their model’s saves is ‘the best’.

This FaQ is referring to p38 of the rulebook ("Models with more than one save") which applies when you are doing you save rolls. Here we are not doing save rolls; we are talking about To Wound rolls for a Grav weapon. So this FaQ doesnt apply here, get over it guys.

Next another one is mentionned:

Q: How do Graviton weapons work with units with mixed armour saves?
A: Use the armour save that is in the majority within the target unit (in the case of a tie, the player whose unit is under attack can choose which is used).

As stated before, it's not because you have two armor that you have two different armor save at the same time. The unit is not a unit of mixed armor saves, this FaQ does not apply.

Thank you RabbitMaster. I think you finally pointed out what I needed to make this right again.

I was confusing "mixed saves" with the "more than 1 save" as you quoted above. They are not the same thing. Mixed saves applies when different models have different saves, which is where the Grav FAQ comes into effect.
"More than 1 save" doesn't apply here because we aren't applying it to "taking saving throws" on individual models, which is when we can apply the "best save" FAQ

--

I think I actually found a more concrete answer than just "sweep it under the rug, this isn't what they're talking about", which isn't really an answer.

Under Multiple Toughness Values, it lists what to do with units containing differing Toughness characteristics. All we have to do is substitute "Toughness" with "Armour Save", and the answer becomes apparent:

"Multiple Toughness Values

Quite rarely, a unit will contain models with differing Armour Values characteristics. When this occurs, roll To Wound using the Armour Value characteristic that is in the majority in the target unit. If two or more Armour Values values are tied for majority, use the highest of these tied values."

Okay, so it's quite clear here that you DON'T get to choose when WOUNDING (as opposed to making armour saves), and that you do have to use the highest. In this case, if a model has multiple armour saves and is hit by Grav, whichever is the numerically most superior save (the "highest") is the one that would be used.

Therefore, Grav's wounding these bikes on 3+'s, since there's an exactly equal number of 3+'s and 5+'s.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
The big issue is you're trying to argue something that doesn't apply.

"You must use the best save possible" except you aren't making a save, are you? No you aren't, and since you are not making a save, "you must use the best save possible" does not come into play.

Grav specifically says you wound against Armor of the target, what is the units Armor entry?
Windriders: 3+ per there unit entry.
HQ with Purchased jetbike: Base armor modified by the Upgrade Purchase to a 3+ per it's rules.

You wound against the models armor. There is no loophole about this you're trying to apply a rule where it doesn't belong, as you are not making a save at this point.

The models in these squads do not have differing armor, in any way. They all -have- 3+ per the bike, negating you any grounds for a choice.

The problem is either having two different modifiers doing the same thing, or that Mesh Armour takes precedence.

Mesh Armour "confers a 5+ Armour Save" while the Eldar Jetbike simply "has a 3+ Armour Save".

So, either Mesh Armour overrides the Jetbike because it "confers" it "after" the Jetbike exists and places its Armour Save as the default.

OR, we refer to the Draft FAQ case for Quantum Shielding vs Lance which states that two Set Modifiers are being applied at the same time, they cancel each other out, leaving the Windrider without any Armour Save modifier whatsoever. Without an Armour Save modifier, what is its natural Armour Save? The 3+ is already acknowledging the case of the Eldar Jetbike being provided, so...

Yarium 693503 8708030 wrote:The datasheet's statline says 3+, but both the Jetbike and the Mesh Armour are listed in their wargear. So, even assuming the 3+ in the profile wasn't from the jetbike, they'd have 3 armour saves... their statline armour save of 3+, their jetbike armour save of 3+, and their mesh armour save of 5+. Since we'd have an equal number of all saves, we can choose which is "best" when hit by the Grav, and can choose the 5+. Just because it's in the statline doesn't mean that overrides everything. As stated, a Space Marine Captain might have a 3+ armour save in their profile, but if they have purchased Terminator Armour, the player can choose to use their Terminator Armour's save of 2+ instead.

This argument just sounds wrong. If a space marine captain elects to wear terminator armor, he's wearing terminator armor, not power armor. It's power armor that confers the 3+ save, power armor that he's no longer wearing.

Once again, the great advice of GW comes to mind from the FAQs:

"Use common sense."

To the OP:

You don't have two armor saves.

You have a single unit composed of models with a 3+ armor save. If they're on bikes, they don't have a 5+ armor save.

 Traditio wrote:
This argument just sounds wrong. If a space marine captain elects to wear terminator armor, he's wearing terminator armor, not power armor. It's power armor that confers the 3+ save, power armor that he's no longer wearing.

Once again, the great advice of GW comes to mind from the FAQs:

"Use common sense."

To the OP:

You don't have two armor saves.

You have a single unit composed of models with a 3+ armor save. If they're on bikes, they don't have a 5+ armor save.

Then why in the name of common sense do they have a piece of Wargear that provides a lesser Armour Save?

Charistoph wrote:Then why in the name of common sense do they have a piece of Wargear that provides a lesser Armour Save?

Why should they have to take off their clothes just to get on a bike?

At any rate, the solution is obvious: just read the bloody stat-line. That's a 3+ in the "saves" subsection.

 Traditio wrote:

Charistoph wrote:Then why in the name of common sense do they have a piece of Wargear that provides a lesser Armour Save?

Why should they have to take off their clothes just to get on a bike?

Pointless. Real life answer for a rules question.

Space Marine Bikers do not have Power Armour for their Wargear. Are they then naked?

 Traditio wrote:
At any rate, the solution is obvious: just read the bloody stat-line. That's a 3+ in the "saves" subsection.

And then read the bloody Wargear list. Mesh Armour confers a different Armour Save.

Charistoph wrote:Space Marine Bikers do not have Power Armour for their Wargear. Are they then naked?

Power armor's also not listed in the wargear sections for tactical squads, crusader squads, etc.

It's pretty much implicit from:

1. The appearances of the model

and

2. the 3+ save in the statline.

If you look at Pedro Kantor's statline, artificer armor isn't listed in his wargear. He obviously has it, though, given the 2+ save in his statline.

And why don't you look for centurion armor in the centurion devastator unit wargear section?

Power armored marines on bikes obviously have power armor. That's clearly what the 3+ on the statline is there for.

And then read the bloody Wargear list. Mesh Armour confers a different Armour Save.

If I had to guess?

The dude who wrote the windrider wargear just did a copy/paste job from the guardians wargear section and then adjusted it accordingly to make it into a bike unit.

There's nothing mysterious about this.

Once again, windriders have a 3+ armor save. Period.

 Traditio wrote:

Charistoph wrote:Space Marine Bikers do not have Power Armour for their Wargear. Are they then naked?

Power armor's also not listed in the wargear sections for tactical squads, crusader squads, etc.

It's pretty much implicit from:

1. The appearances of the model

and

2. the 3+ save in the statline.

If you look at Pedro Kantor's statline, artificer armor isn't listed in his wargear. He obviously has it, though, given the 2+ save in his statline.

And why don't you look for centurion armor in the centurion devastator unit wargear section?

Power armored marines on bikes obviously have power armor. That's clearly what the 3+ on the statline is there for.

Incorrect. The answer is actually, "yes, they are naked, there is no Power Armour Wargear in the current Codex: Space Marines".

You are mixing Real Life with Rules again.

 Traditio wrote:

And then read the bloody Wargear list. Mesh Armour confers a different Armour Save.

If I had to guess?

The dude who wrote the windrider wargear just did a copy/paste job from the guardians wargear section and then adjusted it accordingly to make it into a bike unit.

There's nothing mysterious about this.

Once again, windriders have a 3+ armor save. Period.

No, the correct situation is: Windriders come with an unknown Armour Save, it is then modified by both Mesh Armour and Eldar Jetbike granting them both. Since Wargear already listed on the datasheet is incorporated in to the Profile, it is reflecting the better Armour Save of the Eldar Jetbike without acknowledging the worse Armour Save of the Mesh Armour. When two set modifers are in place, according to the GW Draft FAQ, they cancel each other out, leaving the unknown Armour Save.

This is actually where the "common sense" logic of the GW FAQ leads us to. Which is more to say, that they do not use "common sense" when they answer half of their FAQs as it is.

Hopefully they just errata the entry and remove the unnecessary Mesh Armour.

Whatever the rules rationale would be - although I like what Charistoph suggests above - I'd think it ludicrous to claim a 5+ vs grav on a windrider unit.

When I read the FAQ, I understood it to work just like mixed or majority toughness values in a unit, which each model having a defined value in the evaluation, not as permission to look for a t-shirt beneath your flak-vest. ;-]

 Galef wrote:

 RabbitMaster wrote:

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

The big issue is you're trying to argue something that doesn't apply.

"You must use the best save possible" except you aren't making a save, are you? No you aren't, and since you are not making a save, "you must use the best save possible" does not come into play.

That's exactly what I said a few messages earlier, but a lot of people here didnt read it apparently.

There are 2 FaQ mentionned in this post:

Q: Warhammer 40,000: The Rules states that a model gets ‘the advantage of always using the best available save’. Does that mean we have to use the numerically lowest save, or do we have the option of using any save we have?
A: The controlling player can use their discretion as to which of their model’s saves is ‘the best’.

This FaQ is referring to p38 of the rulebook ("Models with more than one save") which applies when you are doing you save rolls. Here we are not doing save rolls; we are talking about To Wound rolls for a Grav weapon. So this FaQ doesnt apply here, get over it guys.

Next another one is mentionned:

Q: How do Graviton weapons work with units with mixed armour saves?
A: Use the armour save that is in the majority within the target unit (in the case of a tie, the player whose unit is under attack can choose which is used).

As stated before, it's not because you have two armor that you have two different armor save at the same time. The unit is not a unit of mixed armor saves, this FaQ does not apply.

Thank you RabbitMaster. I think you finally pointed out what I needed to make this right again.

I was confusing "mixed saves" with the "more than 1 save" as you quoted above. They are not the same thing. Mixed saves applies when different models have different saves, which is where the Grav FAQ comes into effect.
"More than 1 save" doesn't apply here because we aren't applying it to "taking saving throws" on individual models, which is when we can apply the "best save" FAQ
--

I am requoting what I wrote because it doesn't seem like anyone read it.
Basically, MODELS can choose what armour is best when TAKING saves, but UNITs can only choose what saves to wound for Grav when their are different saves within the unit and no majority. Since all models in a Widrider unit, even with a Farseer of Warlock in the unit will all have a 3+ armour, so a clear majority exists no matter how you look at it.

--

I read it. I don't think it holds water though. Instead, read this redone of mine that I think actually settles this. And best of all, no FAQ is required.

 Yarium wrote:
I think I actually found a more concrete answer than just "sweep it under the rug, this isn't what they're talking about", which isn't really an answer.

Under Multiple Toughness Values, it lists what to do with units containing differing Toughness characteristics. All we have to do is substitute "Toughness" with "Armour Save", and the answer becomes apparent:

"Multiple Toughness Values

Quite rarely, a unit will contain models with differing Armour Values characteristics. When this occurs, roll To Wound using the Armour Value characteristic that is in the majority in the target unit. If two or more Armour Values values are tied for majority, use the highest of these tied values."

Okay, so it's quite clear here that you DON'T get to choose when WOUNDING (as opposed to making armour saves), and that you do have to use the highest. In this case, if a model has multiple armour saves and is hit by Grav, whichever is the numerically most superior save (the "highest") is the one that would be used.

Therefore, Grav's wounding these bikes on 3+'s, since there's an exactly equal number of 3+'s and 5+'s.