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So I was trying to do some "mathammer" to figure out revised costs for a Regeneration upgrade for the Haruspex. To try and figure out its worth, I did some excel spreadsheeting of a Haraspex vs. a tac marine squad, with no special weapons - which seems pretty baseline. I've got to be doing something wrong because the result I came up with is that the SM squad would kill the Haruspex while only losing one marine.

Round 1
Haruspex is out of range (in deployment zone) - no attacks

Round 2
Haruspex and marines move up. Haruspex is at range 24. Marines fire 1 shot apiece @ 67% chance to hit (6.67 hits), and 16% chance to wound (1 wound inflicted). Haruspex has 60% chance to negate wound (.6 wounds inflicted total)

Round 2
Haruspex runs 9" (now 15" away). Marines do not move and fire 1 shot apiece @ 67% chance to hit (6.67 hits), and 16% chance to wound (1 wound inflicted). Haruspex has 60% chance to negate wound (1.2 wounds inflicted total)

Round 3
Haruspex runs 9" (now 6" away). Marines do not move and fire 2 shots apiece @ 67% chance to hit (13.3 hits), and 16% chance to wound (2 wounds inflicted). Haruspex has 60% chance to negate wound (1.8 wounds inflicted total)

Round 4
Haruspex charges 6". Marines overwatch and fire 2 shots apiece @ 16% chance to hit, and 16% chance to wound (.5 wounds inflicted). Haruspex has 60% chance to negate wound (2.1 wounds inflicted total)
Close combat begins, Haruspex makes Hammer of Wrath attack @ 33% chance to hit, and 83% chance to wound (27% chance for 1 wound)
Space marines conduct close combat @ 66% chance to hit, 16% chance to wound (1 wound inflicted). Haruspex has 60% chance to negate wound (2.7 wounds inflicted total)
Haruspex close combats, making 3 attacks @ 33% chance to hit, and 83% chance to wound (82% chance of 1 wound, we'll call it 1 wound when combined with above) - Marine has 60% chance to negate wound (Marines taken .6 wounds)

Round 5
Space marines conduct close combat @ 66% chance to hit, 16% chance to wound (1 wound inflicted). Haruspex has 60% chance to negate wound (3.3 wounds inflicted total)
Haruspex close combats, making 3 attacks @ 33% chance to hit, and 83% chance to wound (82% chance of 1 wound, we'll call it 1 wound when combined with above) - Marine has 60% chance to negate wound (Marines taken 1.2 wounds)

If the game ends here, the Haruspex has taken 3 wounds and only killed one marine in return. If the game continues, the Haruspex may kill one more marine, but is likely to die if the game goes to turn 7.

If I am doing this right, how is the Haruspex even close to being worth 160 points when a 20-point cheaper basic troop can take it out so reliably?

Only a small change, but how are marines taking saves in CC against a MC?

While it barely alters it, they are terrible yes.



Edit: haruspex should have a bonus attack for charging too.

Damn - forgot HoW hits automatically and Smash makes all the attacks (except HoW) AP2; so in round 4 (with 4 attacks, not 3) the Haruspex still only kills about 1 marine, but in round 5 he kills another.

Still looks like the Haruspex is going to lose - anything else I missed?

Is a haruspex ws1? Otherwise shouldn't it be a 50% chance to hit?

Hammer of Wrath hits automatically, but has no AP. The Haruspex would also have 4 attacks on the turn it charged, not 3. And as JamesY points out the Haruspex is WS3 so is hitting on 4's not 5's.

Overall though, a slow moving close combat unit with low WS, A and I is pretty damn useless.

he is sti bad don't get me wrong but isn't this thing more of a low Av vehcile / termi killer ?

Yes, 1 on 1 a haruspex can kill a naked Tac squad. Sadly makes Tac squads kinda suck. Try a Grav Cannon squad in a free rhino. Or scatterbikes. The haruspex is slow with no guns over 6" in range, and is outran and outraged by almost the entire game.

Also worth noting, the Haruspex gains an extra attack for each wound it inflicts on the turn it charges and it has the Acid Blood biomorph (S5 AP2 hit for each unsaved wound if the attacker fails an Initiative test) equipped innately. It also regenerates 1 wound if it causes at least 1 wound in the combat phase (regardless of source, meaning acid blood and a thresher scythe also trigger it), so it should have negated at least two of those 3 wounds by turn 5.

 oldzoggy wrote:
he is sti bad don't get me wrong but isn't this thing more of a low Av vehcile / termi killer ?

It's described as an infantry killer, but doesnt do at all well at that.

Sure it is described as an infantry killer in the text but you pay for crushing claws and all that AP2 stuff. It even has a ap2 ranged attack and bleeds ap2. So why would you not make use of it and send it against MEQs

So how would 3 Toxin Sacs Tyrant Guard do instead. About the same points?

Or 2 TS TG with Lash Whip and Bonesword?

Only 6 or 4 wounds respectively and no regeneration but still T6.

A little better than the haruspex, but still pretty bad.
These things are just too slow to be effective close combat units.

It's like trying to walk a squad of TH/SS terminators across the field. Targets just walk away from them while shooting them to bits.
The termies can at least take land raiders or thunderhawks as a delivery mechanism, but the bugs lack that.

You did round 2 twice, so your round 5 stats are actually round 6. And given that even a poor marine player would retreat atleast once for an extra round of shooting, the Haruspex on average rolls would never make it to assault before round 6.

Great model; desperately needs a rules fix. It's one of many Nids which needs either deployment or movement options to let it get into action. Surely such a creature should be able to chase down a Rhino - isn't that 'cinematic' enough for GW?

I'm guessing the pod doesn't help much, otherwise it would've been mentioned as a way to offset one of its weaknesses. That says a lot.

The current state of Tyranids really pisses me off. My own fault for enjoying the background and imagery of the traditional archetypal foes in 40k (CSM, Tyranid, Ork player) What a sucker!

Short answer, yes. Tyrannocyte, walk-up, Distraction-spex with Shroud.. all terrible delivery systems. Underwhelming for its cost.

Great model.

 Imateria wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
he is sti bad don't get me wrong but isn't this thing more of a low Av vehcile / termi killer ?

It's described as an infantry killer, but doesnt do at all well at that.

To be fair, under the 5th edition rules it actually would be an infantry mulching machine. In 5th, Crushing Claws added D3 attacks instead of the current +1 Strength and Armorbane. Under the old rules, it would have an average of 5 attacks each round after the charge and roughly 8-9 on the turn it charged (due to its ability) with a maximum possibility of 12(!) with perfect rolling.

Odds are the unit entry was finalized before the change to Crushing Claws was and the unit was never updated to reflect the new function (adding the Rampage rule would do it).

Currently, they're fire magnets. The whole dex needs an update.

The Tyrannocyte is the key element here; drop the bugger in at close quarters to begin with.

Also, as noted, whenever the Haruspex noms one or more marines in an assault, he recovers a wound. By comparison, every time the marines wound the haruspex, they risk taking wounds from acid blood.

Also, the marines would have been using grenades.

So, assuming you're running across the board, the marines are halfway through their deployment zone (i.e. 6" from the board edge), and the Haruspex starts at the edge of his deployment zone and moves first:

Turn 1:
Haruspex moves and runs - range drops from 30" to an average of 20.5".

Marines fire single shots, getting an average of 0.37 wounds in.

Turn 2:
Haruspex moves and runs - range drops from 20.5" to 11".

Marines fire rapid fire, getting an average of 0.74 wounds in, for a running total of 1.1

Turn 3: The Haruspex moves (down to 5" range), uses its tongue attack, and charges.

The tongue gets an average of 0.42 kills (assuming no cover) leaving 9.58 marines.

Overwatch (allowing for half a marine down) does an average of 0.18 wounds with rapid fire (up to 1.29 wounds)

Hammer of wrath crushes 0.28 marines leaving 9.3.

Krak grenades mess the haruspex up, causing 1.03 wounds (2.32 total)

Acid blood melts 0.34 marines (down to 8.96)

Claws kill 2.36 marines allowing for charge bonus and rapacious hunger, leaving 6.6

The Haruspex heals a wound (down to 1.3).

In the marine turn 3, the Haruspex kills a further 1.5 marines between claws and acid blood, whilst the marines only manage less than a single wound - so the haruspex comes out of the combat with an average of more wounds than he started with.

The Haruspex may take 2-3 more rounds of combat to finish of the marines, but he is very unlikely to be killed - and that's a 160 point monster killing a 140 point squad by running straight through its fire and eating it.

The haruspex is not a great unit in practice, because in reality it'll take 2-3 krak missiles in the first turn, and it'll be so badly wounded that a more or less intact squad will kill it with krak grenades in one round. The counter to this is that it can be put in a tyrannocyte - dropping in at point-blank range and possibly out of line of sight, giving your opponent one turn to do anything about it before it starts stabbing someone.

Most of the time a melee-armed carnifex is a better use of points, though.

also note that the haruspex has a nice tactical flexibility in that it does have crushing claws - it is quite capable of playing can-opener to a tank or walker if one gets in the way.

I recently started 40k as a tyranid player.

This thread helped me actually to understand some roles a little better thanks for this discussion.

Why are you deploying your Haruspex 36" away from an enemy?

I've only used mine a couple of times. Once it was shot to death and played Distraction Carnifex. The other it actually got counter charged and managed to very slowly eat a bunch of marines. The healing from eating guys is deceptively good. It finally died but was in combat for something like five turns. In the Drop Pod Spam world we are looking to inherit, I think it may come into its own as a strong counter-charge deterrent to deep striking Pods and MSU Marines. It is actually alright at eating those, and slightly tougher than a Carnifex. I will say that generally the Exocrine has been better but then it's part of the Living Artillery Node which is very good. Mine's magnetized to switch roles.

I would play Haruspex as a tankhunter with those crushing claws. It could also take on Monsters and elite infantry. Regeneration would make it more resilient to damage it absorbs during movement into combat. In Apocalypse games I would play Eater-swarm formation with three Haruspexes Outflanking via Trygon's tunnels.

Spreelock wrote:
I would play Haruspex as a tankhunter with those crushing claws. It could also take on Monsters and elite infantry. Regeneration would make it more resilient to damage it absorbs during movement into combat. In Apocalypse games I would play Eater-swarm formation with three Haruspexes Outflanking via Trygon's tunnels.

Unless you're referring to some apocalypse rule/formation I'm not aware of, Haruspexes can't use trygon tunnels. Only infantry models can use those.