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As of today there are 23 armies in the game, 13 of which belong to the Imperium. Some of which, I believe should be merged or should not exist entirely. Having too many armies makes balancing them (something GW is already not too good at) even more difficult and the more codexes there are the more power creep is needed to get people to play these new armies.I know some people will disagree and I will probably get some hate for this, but I have drawn up a list of ideas which reduce the number of imperial factions in the game.

1. Merging the Grey Knights, Inquisition and SoB into one Inquisition/witch hunters faction

This gets rid of some of the smaller, less fleshed out factions and places them into a larger one to compensate, meaning they are all smaller parts of a larger codex. It would also be an excuse to update the neglected SoB which would make them more popular. The Grey Knights (a faction which I feel shouldn't exist) would form some of the more elite, tanky and expensive units and vehicles with strong IC's whilst theRe should be added Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and the Sisters as supporting units. All the special characters would remain and there would be Inquisitors as HQ units. Merging them into one faction would also make it easier to represent the Ordos in a single codex making them easier to collect.


2. This isn't really a point (as its infeasible) just a rant about the (in my eyes) stupidity of the whole Imperial Knights range. Mini-Titans available to take for any Imperial faction? Really? This was obviously a money grab by GW to make people buy larger, more expensive kits. They shouldn't exist. We already have the Titan legions these are nowhere near as cool and to me they look really gimmicky and an attempt to stop imperial players crying over wraithknights and riptides and to give them a counter. They should be removed from the game but that won't happen as people already spent money on them and they would not be happy if their model was declared invalid (I know I would). This is not a dig at people who play Knights, just my personal views on the products.

3. Merge the Skitarii and Mechanicum

I'm 99% sure the Skitarii are part of the Mechanicum anyway so why are they not the same faction?

4. Merge the Blood Angels with the Space Marines and give them the Black Templar treatment

The Blood Angels are the most similar to the regular marines as compared to DA and the SW and I don't think it would hurt them to get merged. They would still be pretty different, having all their special units and chapter tactics, making them play differently to vanilla marines, but at the moment I don't think they are as unique as the SW or DA in that they need to warrant their own codex.

5. Merge the Eldar and Dark Eldar they are way too similar.



Just kidding.

Looks like I was wrong about the MT. My apologies.

Why are Scions and Sisters part of the Inquisition? Considering that the fluff has them with NOTHING to do with it.

 curran12 wrote:
Why are Scions and Sisters part of the Inquisition? Considering that the fluff has them with NOTHING to do with it.

Aren't the MT Inqusition Stormtroopers and the SOB the Ordo Hereticus?

No.

Tempestus Scions are an elite detachment, more akin to Guard than anything.

Battle Sisters are part of the Ecclesiarchy, and not connected in any way to the Inquisition other than through a common enemy and Imperial starting point.

Agreed with curran.

Scions are their own force - not bound by the Inquisition. Nor are the SoB. Or even the GK for that matter any more. They are all independent organisations, just that the GK are more likely to be called upon by an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor. The other two are no more affiliated to the Inquisition than any other Space Marine Chapter.

Knights probably shouldn't have been made, or at least treated akin to the Escalation book which IIRC allowed for superheavies to be taken by all Imperial armies (Baneblades, Shadowswords, etc - IIRC). As they are now, they can't be removed. And really, as a single model or series of such, they are unlikely to win games alone.

IG, Skitarii and Mechanicum joining into one - NO. Join Mechanicum and Skitarii by all means, but there is no similarity between Guard and any of those factions. AM are human soldiers pressed into service by the decree of the Departmento Munitorum, whom the Admech don't answer to. The factions are about as similar as AM and SoB - both unaugmented human factions. It's not particularly fluff, or if so, it's just as much as AM alongside SM, and I don't see you suggesting to roll them together. AM are fine alone.

SM, IMO, could be rolled into one codex, with a series of supplements or additional parts that guarantee that no SM factions loses out on essential stuff.

It's because it makes more money. Nothing more than that really.

SM are easily the most popular faction, hell everyone probably has one of the Emperor's finest laying around somewhere. So why not make like 4 more unique SM codexes to choose from?

And if someone wants to make a combined force of several different IoM factions, that's another £90 spent on books alone. Sweet sweet profit.

Merging Inquisition and Grey Knights? That was the 5th edition GK codex. Let the memory of that codex forever be burned away. Maybe in the hands of someone besides Ward.

Blood Angels and Dark Angels could easily be consolidated into the vanilla codex. While Skitarii could be with Cult Mechanicus, I would prefer that the Skitarii Maniple stay, and I love that the two codices are separate. I wouldn't use the Cult half for the most part.

Merge all loyalist space marines into C:SM, and delete most of their special chapter-only units (DA flyers, etc). They're all space marines and the chapter tactics system can handle their minor differences just fine. If Black Templars and Raven Guard can share the same codex then all of the other special snowflakes can do the same.

Delete demons as an independent army, put a few summoned demonic units in a chaos marine/cultist codex with rules for all the various traitor marine factions. We don't need a literal WHFB army in space.

Merge inquisition, grey knights (with most of their unit options removed), knights, Imperial Navy, SoB, assassins, etc, into a single "support" codex for the Imperium. All these minor factions don't need to get their own separate codices, especially when most of them are intended to be taken as allies instead of primary detachments.

Merge IG and stormtroopers into an expanded IG codex that contains the FW variant armies, regimental rules similar to the chapter tactics system, etc. Stormtroopers never should have had their own codex, they're just an IG unit. Give IG a formation that make stormtroopers troops/a core choice/whatever for people who want to do all-stormtrooper armies, but we don't need a single-unit codex that is 99% just a copy/paste of another codex.

Delete Tyranids. They suck in every way.

Now the game is much smaller, much easier to balance, and much easier to keep updated. Instead of constantly milking the cash cow with "codices" that are little more than a single page of legitimate rules you can buy one book and be done with it.

 curran12 wrote:
No.

Tempestus Scions are an elite detachment, more akin to Guard than anything.

Battle Sisters are part of the Ecclesiarchy, and not connected in any way to the Inquisition other than through a common enemy and Imperial starting point.

And apart from working as chamber militant of Ordo Hereticus...So their relationship is "bit" deeper than that. All 3 ordos have their own Chamber militant to provide armed forces when Inquisitor finds own assets insufficient for the task.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Now the game is much smaller, much easier to balance, and much easier to keep updated. Instead of constantly milking the cash cow with "codices" that are little more than a single page of legitimate rules you can buy one book and be done with it.

You just proposed cutting down number of books AND models GW sells a lot...Ain't going to fly. Forget it.

There are not too many Imperial Armies, there are too many Space marine codexes "armies".

Stormtroopers should be part of both the Guard and Inquisition Codex.
Mechanicum should be one faction
Two Space Marines Codexes - Codex Adherent and Non Adherent.
Imperial Agents would work for Inquisition, Sisters, Arbites, Rogue Traders, Assassins,

The Eldar and Dark Eldar are vastly more different than the snowflake Marine Chapters in every conceivable way!

Imperial Knights actually has a great deal of fluff and background to it as well as just "wow look stompy robot" - for that see Tau. As you note its also a lovely model - I have 5 and rarely play 40k

Re the "Flavour" units of the Chapters - most could be easily handled by generic flyer or similar lists (or god forbid - generic Sleighs - shudder)

 Mr Morden wrote:
There are not too many Imperial Armies, there are too many Space marine codexes "armies".

Stormtroopers should be part of both the Guard and Inquisition Codex.
Mechanicum should be one faction
Two Space Marines Codexes - Codex Adherent and Non Adherent.
Imperial Agents would work for Inquisition, Sisters, Arbites, Rogue Traders, Assassins,

The Eldar and Dark Eldar are vastly more different than the snowflake Marine Chapters in every conceivable way!

Imperial Knights actually has a great deal of fluff and background to it as well as just "wow look stompy robot" - for that see Tau. As you note its also a lovely model - I have 5 and rarely play 40k

Re the "Flavour" units of the Chapters - most could be easily handled by generic flyer or similar lists (or god forbid - generic Sleighs - shudder)

*No argument here.
*Skitarii and Mechanicum players would probably appreciate that, finally having a complete army building codex would delight most of them.
*I'm actually liking that idea. Codex Adherent and Codex Unique, fluff and pretty model photos aside the codex for the Space Wolves is smaller than the Wulfen supplement booklet.
*Yeah, cause all Space Marines ride on wolves and go feral, are hiding the fact that they're fifty percent traitor or have wings and drink blood. Gotta disagree with you there. If Dark Eldar were on 'come the apocalypse' terms with their Craftworld cousins you might have a point but as battle brothers I'd be all in favour of just sticking them both, along with Harlequins in the same codex. The only thing that stops the three being played as a three way army is the Harlequin's lack of HQ slots, a single book might convince GW to address that.
*I'm in favour of a new Armour of the Imperium book detailing Imperium flyers, some unique tanks and the Knights but since death in the skies just came out that's just a pipe dream.

 Peregrine wrote:
They're all space marines and the chapter tactics system can handle their minor differences just fine. If Black Templars and Raven Guard can share the same codex then all of the other special snowflakes can do the same.

That's a slight over-simplification. Also, in my experience, it's generally believed that Black Templars got boned by how they got treated when they got merged into the vanilla codex. If the others got treated the same way Black Templars did, that would be pretty bad.

 Peregrine wrote:
Delete demons as an independent army, put a few summoned demonic units in a chaos marine/cultist codex with rules for all the various traitor marine factions.

Agreed.

 Peregrine wrote:
Merge inquisition, grey knights (with most of their unit options removed), knights, Imperial Navy, SoB, assassins, etc, into a single "support" codex for the Imperium. All these minor factions don't need to get their own separate codices, especially when most of them are intended to be taken as allies instead of primary detachments.

I think the idea of limiting to the role of allies can be done without over-condensing them into oblivion.

 Peregrine wrote:
Merge IG and stormtroopers into an expanded IG codex that contains the FW variant armies, regimental rules similar to the chapter tactics system, etc. Stormtroopers never should have had their own codex, they're just an IG unit. Give IG a formation that make stormtroopers troops/a core choice/whatever for people who want to do all-stormtrooper armies, but we don't need a single-unit codex that is 99% just a copy/paste of another codex.

Not knowing too much about the tabletop IG, this sounds reasonable to me.

 Peregrine wrote:
Delete Tyranids. They suck in every way.

I agree with your reasoning - they suck in tabletop and in fluff, and that needs to be fixed on a massive level. But they shouldn't be removed because at their core, they're a decent idea and can be fixed if GW could ever be bothered making any fixes let alone the right fixes.

 Peregrine wrote:
Now the game is much smaller, much easier to balance, and much easier to keep updated. Instead of constantly milking the cash cow with "codices" that are little more than a single page of legitimate rules you can buy one book and be done with it.

Some simplification is definitely needed, but what you're saying is at least a step too far in terms of how simple it should be.

Actually its a single unit/characters that rides wolves - and other Chapters may use Xenos riding beasts - not my favourite image but conceivable.
There are now the Wolfen as well I guess
Other than that the main difference in the Wolves and the other Chapters is merely minor and mostly cosmetic - with different names for weapons that are basically power weapons,
Other than that their "Unique" units really are not and have quite a large SW army.

Dark Eldar and Eldar:

Eldar have highly focussed warriors that have very specific roles but also remain good all round fighters.
They have well armoured and equipped vehicles with heavy firepower
They employ large and varied constructs.

Dark Eldar love close combat and much of their army is built around this - even if the table top rules don't match the fluff - (*)
Vehicles are light, open topped and fragile with variable firepower
They employ monsters and weird beasts / Aliens on the battle line
They have T-virus style monstrous transformation units
They should get better and more deadly as the enemy dies.

(*) yeah Wyches and elite versions of them have WS 4 -same as guardian but that's the issue with not being a 7.5 edition Power Dex.

Soon the only Imperial flyers will be varied Marine ones rather than Imperail navy as they should mostly be, but again that's an issue with focussing just on one element.

The issue is not so much that the game has too many Factions (which it does), it's that the existing Factions aren't even remotely balanced from a number of units perspective. We have way too many small Factions.

I like how Warmahordes does things. Divide your main armies into core Factions...

Adeptes Astartes (Tough Humans)
Astra Militarum (Squishy Humans)
Forces of Chaos (Spiky Humans/Daemons)
Forces of the Eldar (Space Elves)
Xenos Threats (Tau Empire/Necrons) (Aliens that want to take over the galaxy)
Galactic Scourges (Orks/Tyranids) (Aliens that just want to watch the galaxy burn)

...then add in an extra Faction to cover the extras...

Freelancers (Officio Assassinorum, Inquisition, Ork Freebooterz, Kroot Mercs, Legion of the Damned, Harlequins, Genestealer Cult, etc.)

...and have each Freelancers unit card tell which core Faction the units will work with. Inquisition could potentially work with anything. Ork Freebooterz will work for anyone who pays (i.e., not Nids). Etc, etc.

Obviously, this isn't fully thought out. The current system is just untenable and is causing long time players to give up.

 saithor wrote:
Merging Inquisition and Grey Knights? That was the 5th edition GK codex. Let the memory of that codex forever be burned away. Maybe in the hands of someone besides Ward.

Actually, that's called Daemonhunters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
There are not too many Imperial Armies, there are too many Space marine codexes "armies".

Stormtroopers should be part of both the Guard and Inquisition Codex.

Nope.

Stormtroopers are gone. Scions are not Stormtroopers in anything but concept and basic background. Stormtroopers did not used to be zealots who had to work with Commissars at all times or any of the current stuff we've seen with Scions.

The Scions shouldn't have even been in the Guard codex, that should have been Grenadier Platoons instead.

Mechanicum should be one faction

Nope!
Skitarii and Cult are significantly different enough, gameplay mechanicswise, that they should remain separated.
Don't like it? Tough. I don't want to buy a codex and only ever use half of the components within. I was more than okay with paying $33 for each book, since it meant that I can run either one as their own standalone army.

Two Space Marines Codexes - Codex Adherent and Non Adherent.

Double nope!

If anything, Space Marines should be further separated into MORE books. Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Salamanders, etc should all get their own little $33 book with unique units and tactics. It's not like any of those guys get to use Combat Doctrines anyways unless you run a Gladius or a BDC.
Retain their Chapter Tactics within the main SM book as well so that could be available.

The same thing should be done with Chaos Marines, in point of fact. A main book with all the rules, then smaller books focused on the Legions.

Imperial Agents would work for Inquisition, Sisters, Arbites, Rogue Traders, Assassins,

Um, no.
Arbites and Rogue Traders have no business on the battlefield. Arbites you could maybe make an argument for if GSCs come sometime soon, but Rogue Traders? Absolutely not.

Sisters deserve their own book. They really do. It might not be a huge $58 monster, ala Eldar or SM--but it shouldn't be lumped into some generic Imperial Agents codex.
I don't want to see Assassins or Inquisition lumped into a single book either. Inquisition alone should be something Skitarii/CM sized.

The Eldar and Dark Eldar are vastly more different than the snowflake Marine Chapters in every conceivable way!

They really aren't.

Imperial Knights actually has a great deal of fluff and background to it as well as just "wow look stompy robot" - for that see Tau. As you note its also a lovely model - I have 5 and rarely play 40k

That's great for you, I guess?

Re the "Flavour" units of the Chapters - most could be easily handled by generic flyer or similar lists (or god forbid - generic Sleighs - shudder)

Why is "flavour" in quotes? Do you not believe in flavour?

Stormtroopers are an interesting case though. IIRC, they're technically in a grey area where they're directly under the Departmento Munitorium's administration, and from there are then either integrated into the Imperial Guard or the Inquisition, with Inquistorial Stormtroopers being primarily in charge of protecting the Black Ships and assorted Inquisitorial fortresses.

I prefer a Chapter Creation system, rather than numerous codex books copypasting "This is a Rhino. It can repair Immobilized Results on a roll of 6 if it doesn't shoot."

This is the way you thin it all down:

Sisters of Battle

Space Marines (Merge all the chapters including GK and SW. Pay for Chapter Traits to unlock specific fluff units like Wulfen, Death Company, Etc.)

Adeptus Mechanicus (Merge Skitarii and Ad Mech together.)

Astra Militarum (Merge AM and MT together)

Chaos (Merge Daemons, KDK, CSM, Renegades and if they ever do it Dark Mech)

Dark Eldar

Eldar (Merge Harlies back into main book)

Necrons

Orks

Tau

Tyranids

Imperial Heroes (merge Inquisition, Assassins and Knights. Not an army but a collection of add ons to other Imperial Armies)

Wouldn't mind a way of countering the heroes idea maybe a book with Ork Freebooters, Harlies, Kroot, Sslyth etc. etc. Xenos Mercenaries maybe?

That'd be 4 Imperial armies, and 7 non-Imperial and 1 supplement faction book each.

If you count the various Chapter Tactics, you get another 4 added to that number. I usually count them because not only do they count as different factions when choosing detachments but each also get their own warlord traits, Relics and even Decurions (in this vein I also count Farsight Enclaves as a separate faction).

For me I think it should be slimmed down thus:

Codex Space Marines - Encompasses everything from the vanilla dex to the two Angels of Death. These all have so little variations between them that a single book and supplement should suffice.

Codex Space Wolves - The only space marines that should get it's own book, as their organization and combat doctrines are so different from others that a single supplement will probably not be enough.

Codex Adeptus Mechanicus - This should have been a thing on it's own. Although it should include Imperial Knights in here as well, with Knights fieldable as a separate subfaction (like a mono-god army for Daemons).

Codex: Agents of the Imperium - This includes Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, Scions, LotD, Assassins, Deathwatch and Inquisition. This is because these are the organizations that operate outside of usual Astartes or Imperial Guard forces, often on a very specific agenda. In addition, these units were formerly part of the "hunter" dexes (with the exception of LotD and Deathwatch, as neither existed back then). In this case, the Scions represent both the Scions that hail from Schola Progenium AND the private Inquisitorial Stormtroopers maintained by Inquisitors. Play-wise, each of these factions tend to favour one type of combat over another, so combining them together would allow a balanced mix army to be fielded or a pure army that can get easy support from other elements when they're lacking.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Stormtroopers are an interesting case though. IIRC, they're technically in a grey area where they're directly under the Departmento Munitorium's administration, and from there are then either integrated into the Imperial Guard or the Inquisition, with Inquistorial Stormtroopers being primarily in charge of protecting the Black Ships and assorted Inquisitorial fortresses.

That's not the case anymore. The Inquisition has their Stormtroopers/Warriors/whatever the hell they're calling them now and the Scions are their own entity entirely, called the "Ordo Tempestus". The Ordo Tempestus is part of the Adeptus Administratum, not the Munitorum.

The Stormtrooper Regiment is dead and buried now. Good riddance to it. It never made sense to have a single "Regiment" that was contributing troops all over the Imperium.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 saithor wrote:
Merging Inquisition and Grey Knights? That was the 5th edition GK codex. Let the memory of that codex forever be burned away. Maybe in the hands of someone besides Ward.

Actually, that's called Daemonhunters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
There are not too many Imperial Armies, there are too many Space marine codexes "armies".

Stormtroopers should be part of both the Guard and Inquisition Codex.

Nope.

Stormtroopers are gone. Scions are not Stormtroopers in anything but concept and basic background. Stormtroopers did not used to be zealots who had to work with Commissars at all times or any of the current stuff we've seen with Scions.

The Scions shouldn't have even been in the Guard codex, that should have been Grenadier Platoons instead.

Mechanicum should be one faction

Nope!
Skitarii and Cult are significantly different enough, gameplay mechanicswise, that they should remain separated.
Don't like it? Tough. I don't want to buy a codex and only ever use half of the components within. I was more than okay with paying $33 for each book, since it meant that I can run either one as their own standalone army.

Two Space Marines Codexes - Codex Adherent and Non Adherent.

Double nope!

If anything, Space Marines should be further separated into MORE books. Raven Guard, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Salamanders, etc should all get their own little $33 book with unique units and tactics. It's not like any of those guys get to use Combat Doctrines anyways unless you run a Gladius or a BDC.
Retain their Chapter Tactics within the main SM book as well so that could be available.

The same thing should be done with Chaos Marines, in point of fact. A main book with all the rules, then smaller books focused on the Legions.

Imperial Agents would work for Inquisition, Sisters, Arbites, Rogue Traders, Assassins,

Um, no.
Arbites and Rogue Traders have no business on the battlefield. Arbites you could maybe make an argument for if GSCs come sometime soon, but Rogue Traders? Absolutely not.

Sisters deserve their own book. They really do. It might not be a huge $58 monster, ala Eldar or SM--but it shouldn't be lumped into some generic Imperial Agents codex.
I don't want to see Assassins or Inquisition lumped into a single book either. Inquisition alone should be something Skitarii/CM sized.

The Eldar and Dark Eldar are vastly more different than the snowflake Marine Chapters in every conceivable way!

They really aren't.

Imperial Knights actually has a great deal of fluff and background to it as well as just "wow look stompy robot" - for that see Tau. As you note its also a lovely model - I have 5 and rarely play 40k

That's great for you, I guess?

Re the "Flavour" units of the Chapters - most could be easily handled by generic flyer or similar lists (or god forbid - generic Sleighs - shudder)

Why is "flavour" in quotes? Do you not believe in flavour?

For someone who was trumpeting very very loudly that FFG is a perectly good reason why Deathwatch should have its own extensive codex - its sadly extremely hypocritcal to ignore that Rogue Trader stuff from the same source that includes fleets, worlds and armies with all that entails
So which is it?

Stormtroopers are now Scions - they could back again with no issue with no loss. 40k fluff is malliable that way you know.

The two Adeptus Mechanicus books are only partial codexes - not even with the fluff variance of units - compare them to the 30k Mechanicum book - which is better?

Just because you like Wolfy Wolf Wolf on his wolf sleigh pulled by Wolves does not mean others have to consider that flavour" rather than just lazy and pathetic. Hence "Flavour" Admitedely I think it was actually written to appeal to young teenagers - not sure if it works for them.

I specifcially stated the ways in which Dark Eldar differ from Eldar - Apart form a few Wolfy WOLF WOLF units and some shiny bits stapled to their armour - can you list the ways thEY ARE ACTUALLY DIFFERENT that are not just superficial.

I personally think that the Agents codex would be great - rather than the cash grab codexes we have now where they copy paste the rules for two units and some older fluff and sell it for a load of cash. Do I want a Sisters codex - hell yeah but I also can see that the bloat of actual codex's is terrible at the moment and a firm gorunding of decent sized books withb plenty of choice is better tha the shotgun approach currently favour.

From the tone of your post you might want to look into anger management.

 Mr Morden wrote:

For someone who was trumpeting very very loudly that FFG is a perectly good reason why Deathwatch should have its own extensive codex - its sadly extremely hypocritcal to ignore that Rogue Trader stuff from the same source that includes fleets, worlds and armies with all that entails
So which is it?

I don't think you actually understand what "hypocritical" means if you think saying that Deathwatch getting its own codex(nowhere did I say anything about "extensive", that's you inferring things) justified by FFG's material precludes me from saying that Rogue Traders, entities known not for ground warfare but for space exploration and acting as privateers/freelancers, don't belong in 40k.

If there's genuinely enough material floating around to justify Rogue Traders as an army, not just your hodgepodge idea of "Imperial Agents", where you seemed to just toss a bunch of names into a hat and then called it some vague name? Then I'd love to see them go for it. But if they do Rogue Traders, then they damn well better do Eldar Corsairs and Exodites as well because there's far far more to justify those two forces than there is for fops in period dress.

Stormtroopers are now Scions - they could back again with no issue with no loss. 40k fluff is malliable that way you know.

40k fluff certainly is malleable, but you know what?
The Scions are significantly divergent from the Stormtrooper Regiment that existed before.
You have an emphasis on Commissars within the army, the simple fact of there being multiple Regiments(Stormtroopers? There was only ever ONE Stormtrooper Regiment; assets were assigned to warzones from it piecemeal), the emphasis on them being "mindscaped", and lots of little things that make it clear these are not the same Stormtroopers as before.

The two Adeptus Mechanicus books are only partial codexes - not even with the fluff variance of units - compare them to the 30k Mechanicum book - which is better?

For me? Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus.
I don't care about 30k Mechanicum. It's 30k stuff.

You can claim Mechanicum is better if you'd like; but that's your opinion. I have no interest in running a FW Mechanicum army and it has no bearing on this conversation beyond your claim that it is somehow better because reasons(which you didn't actually give here).

Just because you like Wolfy Wolf Wolf on his wolf sleigh pulled by Wolves does not mean otehr have to consider that flavour" rather than just lazy and pathetic. Hence "Flavour" Admitedely I think it was actually written to appeal to young teenagers - not sure if it works for them.

Right, because that's what young teenagers respond to.
Old dudes rocking a wolf pulled sleigh with a pimptastic axe, going out for a good old fashioned slay ride.

I specifcially stated the ways in which Dark Eldar differ from Eldar - Apart form a few Wolfy WOLF WOLF units and some shiny bits stapled to their armour - cna you list the ways thEY ARE ACTUALLY DIFFERENT

Sure, but why should I? You'll just ignore it anyways because that's what you do. You have some weird deep seated need to hate on Marines because they have different codices for different Chapters, as if it is some kind of personal affront to you.

Additionally, your statement of "Now the Wulfen"? It shows how little you actually know about the army you are complaining about. Wulfen have been around for quite some time. They are not a new thing. They even had metal models and were part of a unique Space Wolf army list called "The 13th Company" during the Eye of Terror campaign event.

I personally think that the Agents codex would be great - rather than the cash grab codexes we have now where they copy paste the rules for two units and some older fluff and sell it for a load of cash. Do I want a Sisters codex - hell yeah but I also can see that the bloat of actual codex's is terrible at the moment and a firm gorunding of decent sized books withb plenty of choice is better tha the shotgun approach currently favour.

You do realize that the last "new" codices we got were the two Mechanicus ones, right? Everything else has been either updates to bring new units and their accompanying rules in(Tau Empire), compilations of campaign material(Angels of Death), or updates of supplements(Waagh! Ghazghkull, Farsight, Crimson Slaughter, and Black Legion).

There really isn't a "bloat of codices" unless you choose to view it as one. And quite frankly?
It hurts nobody to have multiple codices for a single faction, especially if it is one where different elements of the faction play significantly different to one another.

From the tone of your post you might want to look into anger management.

And you might want to look into spending a bit more time on your posts rather than just slinging a personal attack in as a closing statement. It makes you look like a petulant child when someone disagrees with your ideas.

No seriously - your tone is constantly agressive and rude. If you don't want to recognise that thats your issue but I was being serious in my post. I have anger issues which I recognise.

Lets look at facts:
You attacked another poster for daring assert that the Deathwatch did not need a full codex by describing thecomprehensive materail in FFGs GW approved prodcuts - the same ones that show that Rogue Traders have private armies and conquer planets -either you are ignorant of those products or are willfully ignoring their existance.

If less time and money was spent on constantly producing slightly different marine Chapters we might well get Exodties. Many have stated how this could be achieved with a few base Codexes and currently we have the worst of both worlds - various interesting and unique chapters are ignored whilst the same few have increasingly bizare versions of themselves created with more and more outlandish units. So we move from:

Space Wolves in my Chapter Approved supplement were just marines. Then we had Leman Russ and his wolves, the odd wolf appeared to be with characters, plus some SC's with flavour - all good, Then it (IMO) starts getting silly - we have to have Space Wolves riding wolves wieldng Wolf Axes. And yes that sort of thing does appeal to teenagers - bit like how us teenage boys used to draw robots made of guns firing guns etc etc. It may have been a conscious thing to appeal to that market with Werewolves and Vampires - I don't know.

As you know the fluff of the Stormtrooper varies from Codex to Codex and has in the past including regmental numbers.

My assertion is that neither of the two Adeptus Mechanicus Codexes are full codexes, missing normal elements like a HQ whereas the 30k one does not. The fluff is clear that the AM have all these elements - dedicated transports for instance but they are not included when they could have been. As well as much more esoteric transports they have access to almost any and all the varied war machines of the Imperium. Do you honestly feel that the current two codexes cover all that they could and should have?

No I don't hate marines - I have an extensive collection of them - what I hate is the increasing need for them to be made into pathetic versions of themselves - hence Wolf wolf wolf.

The Wolfen were their own list not part of the Space Wolves Codex list - hence addition. I have the models, I have the codex. They were limited in what they could have.

Honestly for Loyalist scum, there's not reason that the 99% of your basic 'Codex Chapters' can't be handled by 3 simple books;
1. Codex Space Marines
- ALL the basic Marine units, plus Ultrasmurf special characters, with Combat Tactics as the basic army-wide special rule/trait.
Add in some additional upgrades, such as 0-1 Librarian/Chaplain per detachment can be given 'Chief Librarian/Master of Sanctity' level stats, a 'Master of the Forge' 3W Techmarine character, etc...

2. Codex Champions of Humanity
- All the rules & Chapter Traits, Relics, Warlord traits, units, special characters, unique Decurion detachments, etc... for the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars, White Scars, Ravenguard, Salamanders & Iron Hands.
Basically, exactly what the current 'Angels of Death' codex is.

3. Codex Angels of Death
- All the rules, Chapter Traits, Relics, Warlord traits, psychic lores, unique units, alternate organisations, special characters, Decurion style detahcments, etc... for both the Blood Angels and Dark Angels chapters.
Pretty much just bring them back to their 2nd roots, but obviously with a newer age & likely slightly larger book. (50-60 pages per chapter should be more than enough!)



Leave Puppies and Shiny Knights as their own books, since they are far too deviant to simply shove under a generic 'Muhreen' compendium.

That would mean 3 books around the size of the current Marine codex, and the elimination of the need for the bloat that's;
- Codex Marines
- Codex Angels of Death
- Sentinels of Terra
- Iron Hands supplement
- Codex Blood Angels
- Codex Dark Angels

Take a page from the AoS books and just toss all the marines together as a collection. Have a section for all the main in common units they have, then add a section to make them super snowflake with special rules and the other crap they get now.

Keeps them all on the same footing so none lag behind in tech, while allowing them to also maintain their individuality they need. Doing a similar thing would give them room to flesh out more subfactions within the armies as well like the different craftworlds or guard regiments. They're essentially all the same thing, just with a slightly different style of doing it which is the same for the marines before they get showered with new toys to try to make it more apparent. Even chaos could benefit from a move like that by finally bothering with the legions and renegades properly.

 n0t_u wrote:
Take a page from the AoS books and just toss all the marines together as a collection. Have a section for all the main in common units they have, then add a section to make them super snowflake with special rules and the other crap they get now.

Keeps them all on the same footing so none lag behind in tech, while allowing them to also maintain their individuality they need. Doing a similar thing would give them room to flesh out more subfactions within the armies as well like the different craftworlds or guard regiments. They're essentially all the same thing, just with a slightly different style of doing it which is the same for the marines before they get showered with new toys to try to make it more apparent. Even chaos could benefit from a move like that by finally bothering with the legions and renegades properly.

That's not a bad idea.

It'd be better all around if people cooled their jets a little bit.

Name calling and hurled accusations will not a great thread make.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Honestly for Loyalist scum, there's not reason that the 99% of your basic 'Codex Chapters' can't be handled by 3 simple books;
1. Codex Space Marines
- ALL the basic Marine units, plus Ultrasmurf special characters, with Combat Tactics as the basic army-wide special rule/trait.
Add in some additional upgrades, such as 0-1 Librarian/Chaplain per detachment can be given 'Chief Librarian/Master of Sanctity' level stats, a 'Master of the Forge' 3W Techmarine character, etc...

2. Codex Champions of Humanity
- All the rules & Chapter Traits, Relics, Warlord traits, units, special characters, unique Decurion detachments, etc... for the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars, White Scars, Ravenguard, Salamanders & Iron Hands.
Basically, exactly what the current 'Angels of Death' codex is.

3. Codex Angels of Death
- All the rules, Chapter Traits, Relics, Warlord traits, psychic lores, unique units, alternate organisations, special characters, Decurion style detahcments, etc... for both the Blood Angels and Dark Angels chapters.
Pretty much just bring them back to their 2nd roots, but obviously with a newer age & likely slightly larger book. (50-60 pages per chapter should be more than enough!)



Leave Puppies and Shiny Knights as their own books, since they are far too deviant to simply shove under a generic 'Muhreen' compendium.

That would mean 3 books around the size of the current Marine codex, and the elimination of the need for the bloat that's;
- Codex Marines
- Codex Angels of Death
- Sentinels of Terra
- Iron Hands supplement
- Codex Blood Angels
- Codex Dark Angels

Sentinels of Terra and Iron Hands are defunct. Everything within them is now in Angels of Death.

 n0t_u wrote:
Take a page from the AoS books and just toss all the marines together as a collection. Have a section for all the main in common units they have, then add a section to make them super snowflake with special rules and the other crap they get now.

Keeps them all on the same footing so none lag behind in tech, while allowing them to also maintain their individuality they need. Doing a similar thing would give them room to flesh out more subfactions within the armies as well like the different craftworlds or guard regiments. They're essentially all the same thing, just with a slightly different style of doing it which is the same for the marines before they get showered with new toys to try to make it more apparent. Even chaos could benefit from a move like that by finally bothering with the legions and renegades properly.

The main issue is, the 'one giant book' for Loyalists doesn't work at all for Wolves & Shiny Marines... Both are simply too deviant right across the board.

Space Pups for example, there is nothing remotely close in any other Marine book for any of the Blood Claw units. Likewise, Grey Hunters are closer to Chaos Marines in their functionality & options than Tactical squads, while Long Fangs are both limited in their overall squad size AND have more restrictive options.
Trying to simply add additional 'bullet points' to each relevant unit with something akin to "if SW's Chapter Tactics, remove options a/b/c, add x/y/z/spock/lizard instead", just makes a complete mess of the rules, while also ensuring you'll have plenty of illegal lists due to easy confusion.

Getting every Loyalist Marine possibility into basically 4 books would be ideal, then leave the Knights & Deathwatch as more or less a 'mini' codex that's meant to be more of an ally army than a full-blown stand alone, take all-comers.

 angelofvengeance wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Take a page from the AoS books and just toss all the marines together as a collection. Have a section for all the main in common units they have, then add a section to make them super snowflake with special rules and the other crap they get now.

Keeps them all on the same footing so none lag behind in tech, while allowing them to also maintain their individuality they need. Doing a similar thing would give them room to flesh out more subfactions within the armies as well like the different craftworlds or guard regiments. They're essentially all the same thing, just with a slightly different style of doing it which is the same for the marines before they get showered with new toys to try to make it more apparent. Even chaos could benefit from a move like that by finally bothering with the legions and renegades properly.

That's not a bad idea.

Truthfully? It kind of is a bad idea.

I would far, far rather see them actually make an effort to flesh out EVERY subfaction currently within the game--whether Chaos, Guard, Ork, whatever.

More small books where people aren't feeling like they're paying for bloat is a Good Thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Take a page from the AoS books and just toss all the marines together as a collection. Have a section for all the main in common units they have, then add a section to make them super snowflake with special rules and the other crap they get now.

Keeps them all on the same footing so none lag behind in tech, while allowing them to also maintain their individuality they need. Doing a similar thing would give them room to flesh out more subfactions within the armies as well like the different craftworlds or guard regiments. They're essentially all the same thing, just with a slightly different style of doing it which is the same for the marines before they get showered with new toys to try to make it more apparent. Even chaos could benefit from a move like that by finally bothering with the legions and renegades properly.

The main issue is, the 'one giant book' for Loyalists doesn't work at all for Wolves & Shiny Marines... Both are simply too deviant right across the board.

Space Pups for example, there is nothing remotely close in any other Marine book for any of the Blood Claw units. Likewise, Grey Hunters are closer to Chaos Marines in their functionality & options than Tactical squads, while Long Fangs are both limited in their overall squad size AND have more restrictive options.
Trying to simply add additional 'bullet points' to each relevant unit with something akin to "if SW's Chapter Tactics, remove options a/b/c, add x/y/z/spock/lizard instead", just makes a complete mess of the rules, while also ensuring you'll have plenty of illegal lists due to easy confusion.

Getting every Loyalist Marine possibility into basically 4 books would be ideal, then leave the Knights & Deathwatch as more or less a 'mini' codex that's meant to be more of an ally army than a full-blown stand alone, take all-comers.

I disagree. I would rather see a single "generic" book for the Marines, Chaos Marines, Guard, and Eldar coupled with smaller $33 books that are detailing specific subfactions.


Think of something like this:
With Chaos Marines' big book? You could run an Alpha Legion army as part of it, since there are shared units(Chaos Marines, Cultists, Raptors, Chosen, Lords) or you could run a World Eaters warband(Berzerkers, Chosen, Terminators, Bikers, etc) or you could run both of them together--but you cannot run a World Eaters warband as an Alpha Legion army since the unit selection is different.

That is my ideal book setup. I don't care if it suddenly means we go from 23 books to 50+.