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Hi all,
one of the many discussions in 40K is about the instant kill immunity of monstrous creatures VS vehicles and walkers:
My concept of walkers in 40k is that of a big slow machine with a fixed arc of fire against an agile machine/creature.
I think that the best solution for balancing them against weapons should be making a damage table for monstruos creatures and let working VP2 and VP1 weapons like for vehicles; like possessed vehicles, MC may be immune to crew shaken/studden, but keeping the rest of the table the same. In this way a MC may be immobilised or may have a destroyed weapon.
The table should be like this:
1-2-3-4 nothing
5 weapon destroyed
6 immobilized
7 dead.

What do you think?

I don't see any reason why a monstrous creature couldn't be shaken, or stunned as per regular crew. Getting rocked with a massive blast can distract or cause an animal to pause in pain.

Although I don't see monstrous creatures immune to instant kill. My Tyrannid big bugs have been single shot, insta-killed by frost cannons, eldar, and imperial guard tanks

 disdamn wrote:
I don't see any reason why a monstrous creature couldn't be shaken, or stunned as per regular crew. Getting rocked with a massive blast can distract or cause an animal to pause in pain.

Although I don't see monstrous creatures immune to instant kill. My Tyrannid big bugs have been single shot, insta-killed by frost cannons, eldar, and imperial guard tanks

I think the crew shaken/stunned immunity could be a small balance if you consider that for MC you test on this table every time you take a wound after the armour save: if you think of a lascannon shot, to wound a T10 MC you need a 5+, you remove the armour save and you might have at least a garantee crew shaken, but to penetrate a armor 14 LR you need a 6 in order to test on the damage table.
This idea of immunity came from the possessed vehicles rule and if you look at the various type of MC ( with a living driver, driven by a soul or linving creatures) it could be (at least for me) a good level of abstraction.
Also weapons that can instant kill a MC are far less than weapons that can insta kill a vehicle: a single STR6 VP2 weapon can insta kill a dreadnought, but not any T4+ MC.
Of course if look at all the "optional" rules you could have on a vehicles (open topped, reinforced armor, machine spirit...) VS MC rules (invulnerable save, ...) this could be a good beginning for balancing them without writing more rules.

Also, recall that almost no MCs have T10. T8 is the highest commonly seen, and that only on a few things - most MCs are T6. So that lascannon will wound on a 2+, usually, and ignore armor.

If I'm understanding your concept correctly, you're saying that you should have to roll on the vehicle damage chart, ignoring Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned, anytime an MC takes a wound from a weapon with AP2 or AP1? Would this include counts-as-AP2, such as Rending or Bladestorm?

I'd rather see "Explodes" removed from the vehicle damage chart, honestly. Vehicles mostly act as if they had very high toughness, but bad saves and few wounds, relative to MCs.

 disdamn wrote:


Although I don't see monstrous creatures immune to instant kill. My Tyrannid big bugs have been single shot, insta-killed by frost cannons, eldar, and imperial guard tanks

Slightly off topic, but what big bugs can be instakilled by which IG tanks?

jade_angel wrote:
Also, recall that almost no MCs have T10. T8 is the highest commonly seen, and that only on a few things - most MCs are T6. So that lascannon will wound on a 2+, usually, and ignore armor.

If I'm understanding your concept correctly, you're saying that you should have to roll on the vehicle damage chart, ignoring Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned, anytime an MC takes a wound from a weapon with AP2 or AP1? Would this include counts-as-AP2, such as Rending or Bladestorm?

I'd rather see "Explodes" removed from the vehicle damage chart, honestly. Vehicles mostly act as if they had very high toughness, but bad saves and few wounds, relative to MCs.

But the MC still gets cover, and many MCs rock invuln saves now. Lascannons are completely garbage now.

MCs as they are now should just cost more for their insane durability.

True on that point, but lascannons weren't exactly the point: the proposal has MCs rolling on the VDC anytime they take a wound from a weapon with AP2 or AP1. That includes grav, plasma, melta, etc. MCs are still better off than vehicles here because they can claim cover more easily, and typically have more wounds that a roughly-equivalent vehicle would have Hull Points, but now they insta-die from those wounds just as often as vehicles do. That's what I wasn't wild about. I agree most MCs should cost a bit more (not, say, +250pts each or anything, but somewhat more), but the fact that vehicles can die from a single hit is a big chunk of the problem with vehicles right now. Adding that to MCs does nerf them, but not really in a way that's useful.

I didn't run the numbers for the exact probability of an auto-splat from something like a grav-cannon against a Carnifex, though.

I don't care for instant death as a game mechanic, honestly. Not for vehicles, not for MCs, not for heroes. It's realistic, yes, but to me, 40k isn't exactly a game of hard realism in the best of times. Things that just remove your expensive, high-value model in one strike should be quite rare. That's why folks hate Stomp so much, isn't it?

That's why I'd rather see "Explodes" go away completely, rather than give MCs a chance to "Explode", too.

jade_angel wrote:
Also, recall that almost no MCs have T10. T8 is the highest commonly seen, and that only on a few things - most MCs are T6. So that lascannon will wound on a 2+, usually, and ignore armor.

If I'm understanding your concept correctly, you're saying that you should have to roll on the vehicle damage chart, ignoring Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned, anytime an MC takes a wound from a weapon with AP2 or AP1? Would this include counts-as-AP2, such as Rending or Bladestorm?

I'd rather see "Explodes" removed from the vehicle damage chart, honestly. Vehicles mostly act as if they had very high toughness, but bad saves and few wounds, relative to MCs.

I imagine that a MC has to test in MC damage table each time it takes a wound, after the saves, regardless the VP of the weapon, just like a vehicle. The table is like the vehicle one without the shaken/stunned effect.
The T10 example is meant only as an example for the max toughness vs the max armor at the moment.

Many MC are T6 or T8, so big weapons can easily wound them and this balance the shaken/stunned immunity but they normally have equal or more wound than a vehicle

As I said my view of MC and vehicles is tha MC use their agility and vehicles use they armor so

MC have 360" arc of fire
Vehicles have a limited arc of fire depending where his guns are.

MC move in difficult terrain
Vehicles may be immolized in difficult terrain

MC have a toughness value because they can freely rotate during combat
Vehicles have 3 values of armor because they are slow moving and they cannot react fast enough to rotate to the best protected side.

MC are able to use cover saves to completely ignore wounds because they can "move" and hide behind cover
Vehicles may only stay behind a cover and only their armor can save them

For who suggest to not ignore Shaken/stunned results, please note that many MC are fearless and a good solution may be add to the MC damage table
4: go to ground (if not fearless)

This will keep MC and vehicles damage table similar because it replace the stunned rule with the more appropriate for infantry go to ground rule; fearless creatures will be immune to this, a wraithllord doesn't suffer from pain, but a driven riptide may fall on his knees because of a missile.

EDIT: I forgot, MC may never go to ground, so remove result n. 4.. Thanks HANZERtank!


EDIT 2: MC may still be blinded, so result N. 4 may be:
4: Blinded

I like the idea of any weapon gains precision shot rule against MCs but only when you shoot at a unit of MCs and in this way you are able to select which big monster you want to wound.

But monstrous creatures are never allowed to go to ground I thought?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 disdamn wrote:


Although I don't see monstrous creatures immune to instant kill. My Tyrannid big bugs have been single shot, insta-killed by frost cannons, eldar, and imperial guard tanks

Slightly off topic, but what big bugs can be instakilled by which IG tanks?

The only one i can think of is a 5th edition Harpy being shot by an Earthshaker. Or maybe a vanquisher round? I forget the strength on those.

As for the topic, I think that whenever a unit shoots at a MC, it has Precision Shots and if these shots wound, the MC gets "dazed" and reduces it's BS and WS to 1 for a turn. Represents being shot in the face.

Instead of simply making MC's unplayable awful, a far, far simpler solution is to simply impose a stat penalty on them once they've taken a significant amount of punishment;

'Wounded unto Death' - Once a Monstrous Creature is reduced to less than half its starting number of wounds, it reduces its WS/BS/I/A by half & always counts as if moving through Difficult Terrain.



So for example, a typical MC which is T6/W5 will halve its WS/BS/I/A once it has suffered 3 wounds.

This simply, and neatly simulates the idea of having an arms blown off, half its torso blown apart, grievous & traumatic head wounds, etc..., by limiting its effectiveness in a similar manner to how vehicles can lose multiple weapons and/or maneuverability through immobilisation, etc...

In that case maybe make it so that you need to add the MC's wounds to it's listed strength to find it's actual strength.

So in this case a Carnifex would have a listed strength of 5, but it would start with strength 9 because it has 4 wounds.

The Grey Knights would like to point out that Instant Death is still possible against Monstrous Creatures. And their Instant Death is more reliable than those used against Vehicles, and they can't use it against Vehicles.

Maybe handle MCs as Age of Sigmar does Monsters - they decline in ability as they get wounded.

I think it works well.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
In that case maybe make it so that you need to add the MC's wounds to it's listed strength to find it's actual strength.

So in this case a Carnifex would have a listed strength of 5, but it would start with strength 9 because it has 4 wounds.

I don't think it's appropriate to nuke an MC's strength as it takes damage, since even half/mostly dead, that house-sized fist is still going to easily make any typical roughly 'human' sized adversary go splat with little effort!

I'd still love to see rules added though to represent a dead MC keel over & potentially flatten nearby models!
Something like a roll to see in which general direction the fresh corpse falls, and then place the 5" template to represent the general dead mass crushing those caught under it, in a similar vein to how exploding vehicles can catch nearby models.
(ie: anyone under the blast marker takes a S6/ap- hit as the dead weight comes down on them!)

 Charistoph wrote:
The Grey Knights would like to point out that Instant Death is still possible against Monstrous Creatures. And their Instant Death is more reliable than those used against Vehicles, and they can't use it against Vehicles.

You're too rare to matter for the overall game. Instant death in general is far too rare vs T6 for that to be considered a balancing factor for MCs.

Why not simply use a resolution method that covers all types of unit?
Having a separate resolution method for vehicles, is poor game design .

Simple opposed values to give a wide range of proportional results can cover all units in the same way, in a familiar 3 stage damage resolution.
But that requires a complete re-write to get rid of the poor choices made in 40k game rules over the last 18 years or so...

Martel732 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The Grey Knights would like to point out that Instant Death is still possible against Monstrous Creatures. And their Instant Death is more reliable than those used against Vehicles, and they can't use it against Vehicles.

You're too rare to matter for the overall game. Instant death in general is far too rare vs T6 for that to be considered a balancing factor for MCs.

Grey Knights did make it very available, though, more so than any other army. Heck, they have Shooting Force Weapons!

Maybe if some Tzeenthc Daemons had access to it...?

Still, it was more a point that it is possible, and there are quite a lot of options available to use them outside of Dark Eldar, Templars, Tau, Necrons, and others.

Should it be a balancing point? Yes. But maybe not as strong as you thought I was implying.

Personally, I think it would be good to take a page out of AoS, and when MC's are at half their Wounds, they lose much of their Unit Type Special Rules like Relentless, Move Through Cover, and being able to Shoot Two Weapons, and have their Attacks halved. This reflects the pain and damage the MC has taken.

GCs and Super-Heavies, now, those are ones which mock many of even these strategies

Experiment 626 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
In that case maybe make it so that you need to add the MC's wounds to it's listed strength to find it's actual strength.

So in this case a Carnifex would have a listed strength of 5, but it would start with strength 9 because it has 4 wounds.

I don't think it's appropriate to nuke an MC's strength as it takes damage, since even half/mostly dead, that house-sized fist is still going to easily make any typical roughly 'human' sized adversary go splat with little effort!

I'd still love to see rules added though to represent a dead MC keel over & potentially flatten nearby models!
Something like a roll to see in which general direction the fresh corpse falls, and then place the 5" template to represent the general dead mass crushing those caught under it, in a similar vein to how exploding vehicles can catch nearby models.
(ie: anyone under the blast marker takes a S6/ap- hit as the dead weight comes down on them!)

Boosting MCs even more really does not seem a very good idea.

Having a AOS style statline for the monsters would solve a lot of the problems with Riptides and the like.

Plus, the single biggest problem MC, the Riptide, doesn't give a feth about GK. GK will never clear a wound, and the IA melts their army.

The IA+EWO combo needs to go away and anyone who dares to take it should be beaten senseless with a brass tuna, and the IA itself should probably go away outright, but that's neither here nor there, as far as the original post goes.

Experiment 626 wrote:Instead of simply making MC's unplayable awful, a far, far simpler solution is to simply impose a stat penalty on them once they've taken a significant amount of punishment;
'Wounded unto Death' - Once a Monstrous Creature is reduced to less than half its starting number of wounds, it reduces its WS/BS/I/A by half & always counts as if moving through Difficult Terrain.
So for example, a typical MC which is T6/W5 will halve its WS/BS/I/A once it has suffered 3 wounds.
This simply, and neatly simulates the idea of having an arms blown off, half its torso blown apart, grievous & traumatic head wounds, etc..., by limiting its effectiveness in a similar manner to how vehicles can lose multiple weapons and/or maneuverability through immobilisation, etc...

Experiment 626 wrote:Instead of simply making MC's unplayable awful, a far, far simpler solution is to simply impose a stat penalty on them once they've taken a significant amount of punishment;
'Wounded unto Death' - Once a Monstrous Creature is reduced to less than half its starting number of wounds, it reduces its WS/BS/I/A by half & always counts as if moving through Difficult Terrain.
So for example, a typical MC which is T6/W5 will halve its WS/BS/I/A once it has suffered 3 wounds.
This simply, and neatly simulates the idea of having an arms blown off, half its torso blown apart, grievous & traumatic head wounds, etc..., by limiting its effectiveness in a similar manner to how vehicles can lose multiple weapons and/or maneuverability through immobilisation, etc...

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:In that case maybe make it so that you need to add the MC's wounds to it's listed strength to find it's actual strength.
So in this case a Carnifex would have a listed strength of 5, but it would start with strength 9 because it has 4 wounds.

This method will work in AOS because it started in this way, but in 40K will cause more discussion about how many wound a Riptide that is bigger than a Carnifex needs to reduce his strength.

My method use actual rules and a table that works in the same way as vehicles, I think it is more streamlined. Other than instakilling a MC with a VP2 or VP1 single shot, you are able to reduce firepower and immobilize them just like tanks and walkers with any weapon you are shooting at.
EDIT: I don't know if I was clear before: like vehicles, VP2 means +1 on the damage table and VP1 means +2.

so:
4: WS1, BS1
5: Weapon destroyed
6: immobilized
7: dead

Lanrak wrote:Why not simply use a resolution method that covers all types of unit?
Having a separate resolution method for vehicles, is poor game design .
Simple opposed values to give a wide range of proportional results can cover all units in the same way, in a familiar 3 stage damage resolution.
But that requires a complete re-write to get rid of the poor choices made in 40k game rules over the last 18 years or so...

I agreed with this but it means they need to rewrite a big part of the rules.
This dinstinction came from 1st/2nd edition where only Tyranid used to have living monsters; the Eldar Wraithlord had dreadnought profile.

jade_angel wrote:
The IA+EWO combo needs to go away and anyone who dares to take it should be beaten senseless with a brass tuna, and the IA itself should probably go away outright, but that's neither here nor there, as far as the original post goes.

It's actually quite relevant to the discussion of MC vs vehicles.

So let's say we find the perfect rules set that make Riptide and WKsee balanced compared to Dreads and IKs. What happens to all the other MCs? I'm sorry you suckered, but here's a massive nerf to brighten your day?

Let's look at two analogous choices. The Dread and the Wraithlord.

They're both reasonably big and slow. They both shrug off most small arms.

They both have a little small arms stock. One also has a Heavy stock, and can trade some CC for 2xHeavues. The other can pay double standard points per heavy, for a max of 2. Fairly balanced.

Both can only move 6". One can pod in, but neither can embark on vehicles.

One hits at 4xS10 AP2 at I4 standard. The other hits at 3xS8 AP2 at i4 standard, although can upgrade to S9 reroll-one-miss for a few points. Clear, but not massive, advantage to the Dreads.

One is AV12/12/10, the other is T8. The former can be Exploded when unlucky. The latter is much easier to hurt with most weapons.

For instance, look at basic troops. Necrons and SM can hurt either, but unreliably. Tau FW, Sniper Kroot, Sniper Scouts, anything Grav, Guardians, Rangers, DAs, Kalabites, and Harlequins can all hurt the WL reasonably, but cannot, under normal circumstances, touch a Dread.

The Explodes! result is a big tradeoff, but MCS often do pay it. The problem are the specific offenders (WKS, Tide, NDK), not the whole type (walking Nid MCS, DPs, WLs).

I'd love to see a chance of Shaken on certain hits, but many MCS don't need the nerf. And Explodes! often makes no sense.

Martel732 wrote:
Plus, the single biggest problem MC, the Riptide, doesn't give a feth about GK. GK will never clear a wound, and the IA melts their army.

Easiest change is to make it 3+.

How many other 2+ MCs even exist in 40k?

Dreadknights I suppose...

" What happens to all the other MCs?"

Are there other MCs in practice? Because I sure rarely see them.

" look at basic troops."

Now look at the units people actually use. Scatbikes glance out the dread trivially from a safe rang.e


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Plus, the single biggest problem MC, the Riptide, doesn't give a feth about GK. GK will never clear a wound, and the IA melts their army.

Easiest change is to make it 3+.

How many other 2+ MCs even exist in 40k?

Dreadknights, which are the other heavily spammed MC. Eldar troops don't need to hurt vehicles because the D-weapons and scatterlasers have already blown them all off the table. MCs are still better against bladestorm than elite infantry, because every wound counts against infantry, but only the last wound counts vs MCs.

Ninja'd

That sounds like Codex issue instead of a fundamental rules issue. (oh gosh ninjas :/)

Honestly i would love to see MC and GMC get the vehicle treatment of cover save penalties and a table.

Or instead of a table, there needes to be way more on hit mechanics like strike down that can help control MCs like generic glances can do.

Also increase HP by a few more across the board since a lot of MC have a bit more wounds anyway.

then an overhaul of all CODEXS



edit: speaking of codex issues, the reason Dreadknights are spammed so much is because that codex basically has no other options.

I like the idea of 1-shot, low AP weapons like Vanq Cannons or Railguns causing multiple wounds.

It would give them a more valuable role, and right now it seems they're really out of favor.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I like the idea of 1-shot, low AP weapons like Vanq Cannons or Railguns causing multiple wounds.

It would give them a more valuable role, and right now it seems they're really out of favor.

edit: blarg reading comprehension

I feel like there should be an overkill mechanic like the wound will do the difference between T against ST. naturally this can get out of hand :/