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Try killing MCS with Termies? Done. It's fun.

I enjoy my WL more. There are things he can kill. But anything he can do, my Termies can do better.

No, with BA.

BA can't afford to bring the dead weight of terminators. Ever.

Once again, why does something outclassed by Termies need to be nerf ed so hard?

I just think that lascannons need to inflict more than a single wound to MCs to be viable. They already suck at anti-tank. I guess that's an indirect nerf on MCs, but not a "hard" one, since no one is using lascannons competitively anyway.

Also, how would 6e UM Termies be better than BA Termies? They are kind of identical.

Bharring wrote:
Also, how would 6e UM Termies be better than BA Termies? They are kind of identical.

They're both terrible. BA just lack the tools in general to deal with MCs. No Gladius, no grav cannon, no skyhammer, no smashbane.

Martel732 wrote:
Leman Russ tanks in particular are super junk now because of all the ways to bypass AV.

Martel, this thread is making you and I agree. What is happening and why is Satan on my phone bitching about a blizzard?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Leman Russ tanks in particular are super junk now because of all the ways to bypass AV.

Martel, this thread is making you and I agree. What is happening and why is Satan on my phone bitching about a blizzard?

We agree on a lot, just not the efficacy of IG in general.

It would be nice to see something like multi-wounds or a table. But many MCS would need rebalancing.

See my posts a few posts back for my suggestions.

Back to those-
Jade,
I'm actually partial to the big swings. Nothing says "screw you, WK" like a small chance for a Lascannon tof get an Explodes-like result. That may go too far, but the small- chance high-impact makes the game more dynamic to me. I love taking Brightlance or Lascannons potshots at heavy armor.

"It would be nice to see something like multi-wounds or a table. But many MCS would need rebalancing. "

Fine with me. If something is not good, it should be cheap.

Heh, almost makes me wish for a return to 2nd edition.
Models had lots more wounds in general, but weapons had a damage stat to say how many they inflicted.
A lascannon was pretty strong, inflicting 2D6 wounds. But a carnifex started with about 10.

Arson Fire wrote:
Heh, almost makes me wish for a return to 2nd edition.
Models had lots more wounds in general, but weapons had a damage stat to say how many they inflicted.
A lascannon was pretty strong, inflicting 2D6 wounds. But a carnifex started with about 10.

That aspect of 2nd was better, but shooting the closest unit was so easy to abuse. I think lascannon inflicting 2 wounds instead of one would be sufficient.

Bharring,

As long as it's a fairly small chance, I suppose I don't mind that too much. I wouldn't want "take 3 wounds automatically" from all AT weapons, or "Crew Stunned" from every wound, though. That'd probably tip the balance too far toward infantry-spam armies.

jade_angel wrote:
Bharring,

As long as it's a fairly small chance, I suppose I don't mind that too much. I wouldn't want "take 3 wounds automatically" from all AT weapons, or "Crew Stunned" from every wound, though. That'd probably tip the balance too far toward infantry-spam armies.

Especially if that infantry is in cheap metal boxes, which the lascannon is very inefficient against.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 disdamn wrote:


Although I don't see monstrous creatures immune to instant kill. My Tyrannid big bugs have been single shot, insta-killed by frost cannons, eldar, and imperial guard tanks

Slightly off topic, but what big bugs can be instakilled by which IG tanks?

It was months ago. I don't recall, but I believe a couple of his tanks had the Instant Death rule. One wound, gone...

Beast hunter shells.

Instant death for t6 is still crazy rare.

Beast hunter shells with a coax heavy stubbers to almost guarantee twinlink

I think the problem with MC's is that most of them are woefully under costed pointwise.

Ever hear someone complain about a daemon Prince which is T5 and over 300 points if kitted out correctly?
Nope. Because they are easy to kill and cost a ton of points.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
I think the problem with MC's is that most of them are woefully under costed pointwise.

Ever hear someone complain about a daemon Prince which is T5 and over 300 points if kitted out correctly?
Nope. Because they are easy to kill and cost a ton of points.

I'd say that 'Most of them' is a bit of a stretch.
Lets have a look.

Avatar of Khaine
Belakor
Bloodthirster (Codex Demons)
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury
Bloodthirster, Wrath of Khorne
Canoptek Spyder
Canoptek Tomb Sentinel
Carnifex
Cronos
Ctan Shard
Demon Prince
Dimachaeron
Dreadknight
Exocrine
Fateweaver
Ghostkeel
Great Unclean One
Harpy
Haruspex
Hive Crone
Hive Tyrant
Kastelan Robot
Keeper of Secrets
Ku'gath Plaguefather
Lord of Change
Maleceptor
Mawloc
Old One Eye
Riptide
Skarbrand
Sporocyst
Squiggoth
Stone-crusher Carnifex
Swarmlord
Talos
Tervigon
Toxicrene
Trygon
Trygon Prime
Tyrannofex
Tyrannocyte
Wraithlord

I've probably missed a few, but that's the vast majority of MCs in the game.
How many out of that list do people even care about?

Martel732 wrote:"It would be nice to see something like multi-wounds or a table. But many MCS would need rebalancing. "
Fine with me. If something is not good, it should be cheap.

I'm fine with this, but I think the majority of line soldiers in squads has to keep only 1 wound in order to prevent from wound allocation abuse.
Inserting a wounds parameter in weapons stats requeris to completely remove the actual instakill system.

Arson Fire wrote:Heh, almost makes me wish for a return to 2nd edition.
Models had lots more wounds in general, but weapons had a damage stat to say how many they inflicted.
A lascannon was pretty strong, inflicting 2D6 wounds. But a carnifex started with about 10.

I want to explain this problem with another point of view:
The real main difference between 2nd and 3rd editions is that in 2nd you shoot in model VS model system and in 3rd you shoot in a squad VS squad system

In the 2nd ed. one you had to hit modifiers, armor modifiers and n. of wounds; you always chose a model to shot to a target model, and only because of the sustained fire rule, some time you may select more target models
In 3rd this is reflected in the number of hits from the weapons: the stats for the majority of the weapons in the BRB came from the 2nd ed stats removing the wound parameter. This method, with the instakill rule works for model with a max T of 5, but gives a high immunity to high T, multi W models.
I think that if we don't want to introduce a general rule about instakilling MC (like my table), the only way is to completely remove the instakill rule, replace it with a wound value on every weapon that works only only on not vehicles models and increase the number of hull points on every vehicle model
The wound value will affect the wounds on a model after the save roll, but not affecting a vehicle (that mantains the explodes results on the damage table) with more hull points, may balance the two categories of models.

For example in a Dreadnought VS Wraithlord situation, if you maintain the scatter laser to W 1, but you increase the Dreadnought hull points to 6, the Dread has always the same probabilty to explode, but you need to strip twice hull points to kill him.
The opposite, with a lascannon with a W value of 3, you mantain the same efficiency on a Dread, but is 3 times more dangerous on a Wraithlord; in case of succesful cover save in don't care if the WL doesn't suffer any wound, because the less number of W than the HP makes any multi wound weapon more dangerous for him than for a vehicle; and of course doesn't affect single wound troops.

So,
multi hits, high VP value single wound weapons are for vehicle model
single hits, low VP value, multi wounds weapons are for high toughness multi wounds models
All of them are for single wound models

As noted, Beast Hunter shells are a nice option.

I'd say that 'Most of them' is a bit of a stretch.
Lets have a look.

Belakor *
Bloodthirster (Codex Demons)
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury
Bloodthirster, Wrath of Khorne
Canoptek Spyder
Canoptek Tomb Sentinel
Carnifex
Cronos
Ctan Shard
Demon Prince
Dimachaeron
Dreadknight *
Exocrine
Fateweaver
Ghostkeel *
Great Unclean One
Harpy
Haruspex
Hive Crone
Hive Tyrant
Kastelan Robot
Keeper of Secrets
Ku'gath Plaguefather
Lord of Change *
Maleceptor
Mawloc *
Old One Eye
Riptide *
Skarbrand
Sporocyst
Squiggoth
Stone-crusher Carnifex
Swarmlord
Talos
Tervigon
Toxicrene
Trygon
Trygon Prime
Tyrannofex
Tyrannocyte
Wraithlord

I've probably missed a few, but that's the vast majority of MCs in the game.
How many out of that list do people even care about?

In my brain, the ones above with a * (and the Wraithknight) are the ones people tend to have a hissy fit about.

It's primarily the ones who can get a 2+ save, or a 3+ rerollable invulnerable, or similar jank.

The melee monstrous creature isn't so bad. A squad of marines (yes, even blood angels) can kick the crud out of a supposedly assault-specialist Haruspex without too much difficulty with a turn of fire and charging.

The problem, as noted, is more the armour save than anything. A monstrous creature with a 4+/5+ save, even if it's invulnerable, trades off resistance to lascannons and autocannons with the risk of taking the odd wound from bolter and lasgun fire. (compare the 3rd edition rules for the marine dreadnought and tyranid carnifex).

The problem isn't monstrous creatures. The problem is the Dreadknight, Riptide and Wraithknight - but the problem is that any solution that's meant to 'solve' them (like grav-cannons) does so in a way that makes every other monstrous creature target practice.

The first fix to MCS should probably be nerfs directly to the WK, Riptide, and NDK. Those are certainly the primary concerns.

Beyond that, the multi-wound idea wasn't intended to apply to every weapon. Certainly, most things in the game should stay at (/return to) 1W (Even you, my precious Exarchs!).

The idea is that it be like WHFB, where only a few get that option. Specifically, things like Las cannons and Rail guns. Possibly even Krak missiles. It'd get difficult to actually apply these fairly across codexs though.

Also, the above version might be too strong. Here's an updated suggestion:

Multiple wounds (X): Unsaved wounds with this rule instead remove X Wounds (minimum of 1).

Krak Missiles (+ equivelent): MW (D6-4)
Melta: MW (D6-3)
Lascannon/Brightlance equiv: MW (d6-3)
Rail Rifle: (d6-4)
Heavy Rail Rifle: As Lascannon
Railgun: (d6)

We could also pull Vehicles closer with the following vehicle chart rule:
Reduce each option by 1.
Explodes! Becomes "Secondary Damage: The pen gains MW (D6-AP), provided it has an AP value. If this reduces the vehicle to 0 or fewer HP, it suffers Explodes!.".

Just a though. Vehicle changes wouldn't need to be changed.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
I think the problem with MC's is that most of them are woefully under costed pointwise.

Ever hear someone complain about a daemon Prince which is T5 and over 300 points if kitted out correctly?
Nope. Because they are easy to kill and cost a ton of points.

I didn't even know this was a thing, because no one uses it.

I've also seen a DP go from 1W to full *twice* in the same game, on a 2+ Armor +1 T DoTz with IA and Endurance. And rolled 4+ every round of CC on his demon weapon. And make 3 LD-or-RFP checks....

Dice can go both ways.

(The numbers really are against foot DPs though).

I love that a random Bright lance or Lascannon has a chance to torch even a LR in one shot. More of that and less of the I-survive-regardless *and* less of the I-kill-regardless would make the game more fun.

Some players hate the random and the swings. I love tbem.

Bharring wrote:
I've also seen a DP go from 1W to full *twice* in the same game, on a 2+ Armor +1 T DoTz with IA and Endurance. And rolled 4+ every round of CC on his demon weapon. And make 3 LD-or-RFP checks....

Dice can go both ways.

(The numbers really are against foot DPs though).

I love that a random Bright lance or Lascannon has a chance to torch even a LR in one shot. More of that and less of the I-survive-regardless *and* less of the I-kill-regardless would make the game more fun.

Some players hate the random and the swings. I love tbem.

I don't mind the LR being one shotted. I mind that the up front cost is too high. And that you don't need to one shot it if it immobilizes itself on a bush.

Bharring wrote:
<snippetyopteryx>More of that and less of the I-survive-regardless *and* less of the I-kill-regardless would make the game more fun.

Quoted for posterity. I think that more accurately encapsulates what I've been trying to get across than what I've actually been saying has. I was mistakenly under the impression that folks were wanting a 24-point Marine with a Meltagun to have a decent chance to scratch a 200-point major MC unit in one shot, in much the same way that such a unit is quite likely to ace a Battlewagon in one shot, and I didn't much care for that. Battlewagons die way too easily to anything they're not flat-out immune to.

However, if we're talking about odds more on the order of a Wave Serpent one-shotting a Leman Russ, then sure. That is generally fine: usually that brightlance does nothing, or just takes off a hull point and causes some annoyance, but once in a while, big boom. Longshots are great. "Ha ha, you die" and "ha ha, you can't hurt me" are infuriating. Longshots, on the other hand, are why I still run my Serpents with brightlances, or my Archons with Huskblades. Sure, the Huskblade never does anything, because an Archon is S3 and most things you'd wanna use it on have a 2+ anyway, but the one time the Archon lucky-shots the Chapter Master is the one folks will remember.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
<snip>

I don't mind the LR being one shotted. I mind that the up front cost is too high. And that you don't need to one shot it if it immobilizes itself on a bush.

Yes, this, specifically regarding Land Raiders. I'm much less fazed when a squad of Sternguard dumps seven combi-meltas into a Land Raider and blows it sky-high despite missing with five of them, than I am when it gets stuck on a tree.

" "ha ha, you can't hurt me""

This summarizes MCs in general. T6 backed up by armor save and cover is crazy good. Oh, and MCs are basically immune to blasts. Nice detail for dealing with the IA.

And "ha ha, you die" basically sums up things like Venoms or Vypers. Both of these things really need to be fixed, in a major way.

How does it sum up Vypers? Each one carries one heavy, and either TLSC or a Shuriken Cannon. There isn't much that that is an auto-kill for.

Or do you mean they die to easily?

I mean they die too easily. Neither one has terribly good damage output (not too bad, either).