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It isn't just money, it is access to resources in the form of labs, personnel etc.
Our best work is done in international collaborations, especially as part of EU programmes. If we lose them, our science will suffer. That is why every single british scientific institution was against Brexit. Also, the fact that EU funding has become so important to UK science is precisely because our government is not funding it and there is no reason to assume that will change. Most voters don't see the direct effects of science funding so politicians don't put the money there.
Those collaborations needn't stop just because we are no longer goose-stepping to der euro fuhrer's tune, if it does it won't be because of the brexit it will be because of petulant spankers in brussels. All you remainers are making the euro-crats sound worse than I thought they were. Highly educated people with institutional connections never struggle to get visas, if that will even be a thing for the future. If the euros close the door on us then we can close it on them and we can open it to the whole world too. How does Japan or the US get science done without the precious overlords in brussels? Honestly this is the worst, most insulting thing about remainers, you just seem to have the lowest opinion of anything british. We are literally just pond scum to you? Britain the land that literally created and spread to the far corners of the world, modernity itself.
The US gets science done by doing their work internally and drawing on a massive population.
Even then, science in the EU is the best in the world at the moment, rated above the US.
I don't have a low opinion of british things, I have an informed opinion based in reality. And shut up with the glorious empire bs, it's really quite pathetic to cling to something from so long in the past and which deserved to die for the injustices that it inflicted on so many people.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/29 03:31:20
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A Town Called Malus wrote: It isn't just money, it is access to resources in the form of labs, personnel etc.
Our best work is done in international collaborations, especially as part of EU programmes. If we lose them, our science will suffer.
You guys must really not know how to science if you need the EU for collaboration. I've done my PhD in Australia as an Australian citizen with an Australian scholarship.... did my experiments at a US university.... with assistance from guy from France... with a lab assistant from Turkey.... and I gave a presentation in an Indian university..
Working in an Australian lab, most of the professors have links with universities in other countries and by extension a decent chunk of the research students have collaborations with international groups.
Unless the EU decides to become spiteful d-bags, it's easy to get visas in any western country if your reason is research collaboration.
The funding issue I can't really speak to though, obviously the researchers need to be paid from somewhere and hopefully once the dust settles the UK puts money in to fill holes as needed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/29 03:36:34
A Town Called Malus wrote: It isn't just money, it is access to resources in the form of labs, personnel etc.
Our best work is done in international collaborations, especially as part of EU programmes. If we lose them, our science will suffer.
You guys must really not know how to science if you need the EU for collaboration. I've done my PhD in Australia as an Australian citizen with an Australian scholarship.... did my experiments at a US university.... with assistance from guy from France... with a lab assistant from Turkey.... and I gave a presentation in an Indian university..
Working in an Australian lab, most of the professors have links with universities in other countries and by extension a decent chunk of the research students have collaborations with international groups.
Unless the EU decides to become spiteful d-bags, it's easy to get visas in any western country if your reason is research collaboration.
The funding issue I can't really speak to though, obviously the researchers need to be paid from somewhere and hopefully once the dust settles the UK puts money in to fill holes as needed.
The EU funds about £1.4 billion per year into UK science (it's not quite as simple because it works over funding cycles but the principle is sound, it's £8 billion over 6 years). The general view is that this loss of income is the same as losing one entire UK supported funding council (so it would be like losing the entirety of the Science and Technology Funding Council). It's a big deal for UK science. Yes collaborations will still happen but collaborations occur because all parties can bring something to the table (so storage capacity, supercomputer access or lab access etc). If the UK loses this then there is no reason for other people to collaborate with the Country. Effectively you have to rely on the scraps off the table (so the open access data someone has already sifted through). You will lose the ability to get the big results, the things that make the headlines etc. Never mind you will lose the specialised technical jobs as they leave for other countries. In effect you make science poorer and less dynamic.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch." Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!"
I wouldn't usually link to something referring to very, very old news, but given the current Germany is now being referred to as the Fourth Reich on here, here's what the Mail thought about the last one.
I see the Daily Mail editorial quality is keeping up to its reputation then. It's quite scary how things are so comparable.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
The City of London should no longer be able to clear euro-denominated trades, the French president said on Tuesday, adding to post-Brexit fears.
François Hollande said at the end of a summit in Brussels where EU leaders started trying to pick through the wreckage of David Cameron’s referendum defeat that it would be unacceptable for the crucial stage in the trading of derivatives and equities to take place in the UK.
“The City, which thanks to the EU, was able to handle clearing operations for the eurozone, will not be able to do them,” he said. “It can serve as an example for those who seek the end of Europe . . . It can serve as a lesson.”
The removal of the City’s right to clear in euros is a cherished goal of the European Central Bank in Frankfurt but one that was previously thwarted by the UK in the EU courts.
The ECB had argued it was unfair for it to be expected to provide emergency support to clearing houses that operated outside its jurisdiction. The UK had argued that a “location policy” would discriminate against Britain and challenge its role in the single market. George Osborne, UK chancellor, described the UK’s court victory in 2015 as a “major win for Britain”.
Mr Cameron made the prevention of any further such encroachments by the ECB one of the priorities of his, ultimately futile, renegotiation of the terms of Britain’s EU membership.
Clearing houses such as Deutsche Börse’s Eurex Clearing and London’s LCH.Clearnet confirm trades made on the financial markets and minimise disruption when a trader cannot honour its obligations. London has become a world leader for the clearing of some types of euro-denominated derivatives.
Traders have said the ECB’s location policy would be a warped anomaly in the globalised marketplace for derivatives, creating a Balkanisation of the market.
Still, while the fight over clearing became a point of principle for the UK government, Mervyn King, the former governor of the Bank of England, said a renewed push by the ECB would not have a huge impact on the City.
“The City is much more than a small number of banks that want to trade securities in Europe,” he said. “People all around the world” would still want the benefit of Britain’s legal system when drawing up financial contracts.
choppy waters ahead either way.
Govt. being in effective limbo isn't going to help here.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/29 11:30:45
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Yeah, I can't believe no-one thought what'd happen to Londons financial hub if we left.
I'm still hoping that they move to Edinburgh if we can split off, otherwise they'll be going to Dublin/Paris. In any event, England is going to be totally and utterly stuffed without them.
Herzlos wrote: Yeah, I can't believe no-one thought what'd happen to Londons financial hub if we left.
I'm still hoping that they move to Edinburgh if we can split off, otherwise they'll be going to Dublin/Paris. In any event, England is going to be totally and utterly stuffed without them.
It's what happens when you put career ahead of Country.
I can't see how they could agree to this though.
It's amounts to 8% of Gross Value added to the UK economy
3.5% of the UK jobs are in the banking sector
Amounts to £21.4bn in tax receipts alone (which I note is higher than the alleged amount we'd safe from not paying the EU)
or 4% of total tax receipts.
Also one of the few areas where we have a trade surplus
They'd have to leave open migration as it is, if all this was lost (not likely but other companies are likely to follow) then an 8% contraction would not be a pleasant recession.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
And of course that highlights the whole problem... how can a warehouse worker in sunderland for example know or care about some spiv in london who last he heard was the cause of the banking crisis of years ago with the fallout still being felt now and would think tough luck bloody traders.
The remain camp really messed up there campaign and went for worst case scare scinarios( true or not quite) about this and nearly all people (outside of the divorced london bubble) felt oh just rich buggers trying to stay rich sod em. 'London' is so out of touch to your average worker that they (workers) just dont care about them.
Either way the die is cast and we shall see what we see.
To be fair, the remain camp always pointed out how damaging a leave vote would be. They just could have used some specifics like the bankers.
"If we leave, we'll likely lose £21bn+ a year in tax from the banking industry, plus indirect costs".
Indirect costs being all sorts of things; those bankers all own cars (many quite expensive, and many with more than 1 car each), so we'd lose out on the car sales tax, VED, parking permits, tax on garage labour.
Then there's property; they'll all have expensive property and pay council tax.
Then there's retail sales. Support staff; those bankers probably pay a small fortune for breakfast/lunch/dinner every day at work, and taxis around town, and expensive suits, and cleaners, childcare and so on.
So what we'd actually lose by chasing bankers out is probably double the tax take, before you factor in the housing market crash when thousands of mega expensive properties are put on the market.
I'm still wondering if the banking industry has enough clout to force the whole thing to be dropped. Issuing a formal ultimatum to the government with a compelling reason to drop brexit:
"The banking industry is responsible for ____ jobs and ____ revenue within the UK. You can't afford to lose us. If brexit goes ahead, then we have no choice but to move to Paris".
Or if whatever minister is notionally responsible for tax (Osborne?) can push to pull the plug because the economic damage would be insurmountable. Ideally with numbers: Brexit will result in a base tax rate of 35%, and a VAT rate of 30%, just to maintain current funding. It'd kill demand for it overnight when people see what the actual cost is.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/29 12:41:39
Either way the die is cast and we shall see what we see.
They might have a special rule though that allows them a ward save or a reroll...
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
Skullhammer wrote: And of course that highlights the whole problem... how can a warehouse worker in sunderland for example know or care about some spiv in london who last he heard was the cause of the banking crisis of years ago with the fallout still being felt now and would think tough luck bloody traders.
The remain camp really messed up there campaign and went for worst case scare scinarios( true or not quite) about this and nearly all people (outside of the divorced london bubble) felt oh just rich buggers trying to stay rich sod em. 'London' is so out of touch to your average worker that they (workers) just dont care about them..
Democracy only works if the electorate make a genuine effort to be informed.
If voters cannot be bothered to educate themselves with an even cursory knowledge of a situation then there's very little anyone can do.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Herzlos wrote: To be fair, the remain camp always pointed out how damaging a leave vote would be. They just could have used some specifics like the bankers.
"If we leave, we'll likely lose £21bn+ a year in tax from the banking industry, plus indirect costs".
Indirect costs being all sorts of things; those bankers all own cars (many quite expensive, and many with more than 1 car each), so we'd lose out on the car sales tax, VED, parking permits, tax on garage labour..
That's the 8% figure, "gross added value to the UK economy" bit, the base assumption of, if you total it all up, how much the economy will lose (so just shy of 10%)
Democracy only works if the electorate make a genuine effort to be informed.
If voters cannot be bothered to educate themselves with an even cursory knowledge of a situation then there's very little anyone can do.
And really why on such complex issues, why a referendum is just a bad idea.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/29 12:50:12
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Democracy only works if the electorate make a genuine effort to be informed.
If voters cannot be bothered to educate themselves with an even cursory knowledge of a situation then there's very little anyone can do.
How painfully true, as evidenced by the recent voting (and indeed the past decade or so of politics)
I would make a cynical comment that people need to sit an entrance exam to be able to vote on matters such as these, but then, it conflicts with my other view that everyone should have a right to vote in a democracy. In the end, even I'm split now and it's depressing.
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
TBF I don't see how anything other than a referendum could've happened here really.
Looking at the political parties we have..... or perhaps had even -- they would've imploded if this had been a general election issue and one suspects we would've perhaps been at even more of a deadlock situation.
But what's done is done.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
It's the French Government that want to be take over by being the banking capital of Europe not the German government. However if there is a mass exodus then we still lose. The banks want access to this 'passport' unless the other governments tax them at ludicrous rates they will go.
TBF I don't see how anything other than a referendum could've happened here really.
But not on leaving or joining the EU. You could have quite easily had a referendum asking "The UK is preparing its strategic view on the EU for the next 30 years. Do you think the UKs outlook would improve by being in or out the EU?"
That way its not so divisive and you aren't hamstringing yourself to the result (in addition there's less reason for campaigns to outright mislead people)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/29 13:01:31
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Skullhammer wrote: And of course that highlights the whole problem... how can a warehouse worker in sunderland for example know or care about some spiv in london who last he heard was the cause of the banking crisis of years ago with the fallout still being felt now and would think tough luck bloody traders.
The remain camp really messed up there campaign and went for worst case scare scinarios( true or not quite) about this and nearly all people (outside of the divorced london bubble) felt oh just rich buggers trying to stay rich sod em. 'London' is so out of touch to your average worker that they (workers) just dont care about them..
Democracy only works if the electorate make a genuine effort to be informed.
If voters cannot be bothered to educate themselves with an even cursory knowledge of a situation then there's very little anyone can do.
I don't know; if campaigners were forced to be honest (big ask), then the voters don't need to go and research everything themselves. It's unfair to expect them to understand the intricacies when there are people they can delegate it too. So it's not that people don't educate themselves, it's that they've been grossly mislead (for example; was there a single statement made by the Leave campaigners (Bojo or Farage) that wasn't completely debunked?). Sure, they should fact check all politicians, but there's still assumption of honesty.
"Take back control, vote leave" sounds just as convincing as a campaign to make immigrants leave, as it does for a split from the EU.
Herzlos wrote: To be fair, the remain camp always pointed out how damaging a leave vote would be. They just could have used some specifics like the bankers.
"If we leave, we'll likely lose £21bn+ a year in tax from the banking industry, plus indirect costs".
Indirect costs being all sorts of things; those bankers all own cars (many quite expensive, and many with more than 1 car each), so we'd lose out on the car sales tax, VED, parking permits, tax on garage labour..
That's the 8% figure, "gross added value to the UK economy" bit, the base assumption of, if you total it all up, how much the economy will lose (so just shy of 10%)
I would make a cynical comment that people need to sit an entrance exam to be able to vote on matters such as these, but then, it conflicts with my other view that everyone should have a right to vote in a democracy. In the end, even I'm split now and it's depressing.
I was thinking it'd be reasonable(ish) to have 2 super-basic multiple-choice questions on the ballot paper, to ensure that the voter at least understands the question.
Leaving the EU means:
[] Re-negotiating any terms with all countries
[] Free pancakes for gingers
[] Telling foreigners to GTFO
[] Further inbreeding of the royal family
Remaining in the EU means:
[]
[]
[]
[]
Get the answers wrong, your vote isn't counted.
Or include an independent fact sheet, that they have to confirm they've read. Maybe make them sit though a 30 second video on the way into the polling station.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/29 13:25:45
It's the French Government that want to be take over by being the banking capital of Europe not the German government. However if there is a mass exodus then we still lose. The banks want access to this 'passport' unless the other governments tax them at ludicrous rates they will go.
TBF I don't see how anything other than a referendum could've happened here really.
But not on leaving or joining the EU. You could have quite easily had a referendum asking "The UK is preparing its strategic view on the EU for the next 30 years. Do you think the UKs outlook would improve by being in or out the EU?"
That way its not so divisive and you aren't hamstringing yourself to the result (in addition there's less reason for campaigns to outright mislead people)
Doesn't matter which country they are in, they're bound by EU rules, financial structure and agreeements - the french banks suffer too.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
People would be much happier if free movement was dropped. The EU elite are obsessed with it but millions across Europe are not. It's good for businesses in wealthier countries looking for cheap labour. It shows who the EU really want to serve, even if they do try to spin it as making holidays easier.
Howard A Treesong wrote: People would be much happier if free movement was dropped. The EU elite are obsessed with it but millions across Europe are not. It's good for businesses in wealthier countries looking for cheap labour. It shows who the EU really want to serve, even if they do try to spin it as making holidays easier.
Actually, most people on the continent are very happy with the free movement within the EU, especially those living in small countries.
It's the French Government that want to be take over by being the banking capital of Europe not the German government. However if there is a mass exodus then we still lose. The banks want access to this 'passport' unless the other governments tax them at ludicrous rates they will go.
TBF I don't see how anything other than a referendum could've happened here really.
But not on leaving or joining the EU. You could have quite easily had a referendum asking "The UK is preparing its strategic view on the EU for the next 30 years. Do you think the UKs outlook would improve by being in or out the EU?"
That way its not so divisive and you aren't hamstringing yourself to the result (in addition there's less reason for campaigns to outright mislead people)
Doesn't matter which country they are in, they're bound by EU rules, financial structure and agreeements - the french banks suffer too.
It does matter a huge lot actually. The EU doesn't rule everything, each country sets its own rules and regulations. On top of that different countries also tend to have very different financial structures and behaviours. But you have shown a very poor understanding of what the EU is and how it works so far, so I wouldn't expect you to know.
In any case, the Dutch government is hoping that British banks will move to Amsterdam now. The Netherlands already is a tax haven with ridiculous low taxes and high subsidies for the financial sector, and I secretly suspect the ruling VVD party of wanting to turn the Netherlands into something like a Luxembourg 2.0
Herzlos wrote: Yeah, I can't believe no-one thought what'd happen to Londons financial hub if we left.
I'm still hoping that they move to Edinburgh if we can split off, otherwise they'll be going to Dublin/Paris. In any event, England is going to be totally and utterly stuffed without them.
The Remain campaign thought about it, that is part of why they wanted to Remain.
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / 
Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / 
Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / 
Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / 
Black Death 1500pts
Maybe a "no saves or rerolls allowed" situation ?
