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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The Daemon Primarchs aren't returning alone? So, with Angron, Perturabo, Magnus, and the rest I don't really care about, we are going to see...

Guilliman getting off the toilet? Lion is getting a kiss from Prince Charming? The Khan remembers he's a primarch and punches his way out of prison? Vulkan stops being a dick and comes back?

I kind of want to see Guilliman/Fulgrim round two, now that Fulgrim has had ten thousand years to rot his brain with Slaanesh...

Don't forget Ferrus growing his head back!

Nah, rather one of Fab'Biles clones -he made for Fulgrim- somehow gets away.
Wasn`t there some novel about the head being given to his Legion for "compliance" with the Codex ?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Wait, what? I'm pretty sure the current (or 6th edition) Dark Angels didn't have smoke launchers that reduced pens to glances.

No that's older codex. There was period when DA stuff and SM stuff was way off sync. Smoke launchers that turned pens to glances, cyclones that fired half the shots as others, stormshields that proved 4++ rather than 3++...

That's what you get when you give out special rules in individual unit rules rather than shared rules. Change one, other gets left behind. Dark angel players remember that lesson very well.

Not to mention point costs that kept lagging behind. Codex SM gets point decrease, codex DA kept old ones. Fun fun fun.

The Black Templar book was another good example. Two heavies per five for termies and veteran tactics are two things I remember. Having to buy Krak Grenades, as well.

I remember when the Dark Angels book came out in 6th, and their marines were cheaper than the SM variants, could buy mastery levels for their librarians, had zealot instead of Litany of Battle...

Or 5th Blood Angels getting free Razorbacks for their meltagun armed Assault Msrines, fast tanks, better parking lots than their Codex equivalents did (which ruled 5th edition, at least until GK and Necrons.)

I also remember those BA and DA players telling Codex Marines players to suck it up. Oh how the wheel turns...

Rules misalignment within factions is why I favour a core book / supplement model that they've only half-heartedly implemented at the moment.

For example, all basic SM vehicles, units and equipment should be in a single book. The more divergent chapters then have a supplement that just covers their unique bits, rather than a full codex.

Or you ditch the entire codex concept and go to free (or minimal cost) data sheet downloads that allows you to update everything as and when you need to make a change. I also think this can work as your "codex" can then become a collectors type book with all the fluff, artwork, painting guides etc. for your army. They'd still sell a bunch of them because the core market is enthusiastic completionists, who like to have everything to do with their chosen faction(s). See also collectors edition codices and the FW black books/red book arrangement.

Nvs wrote:
What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.

Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The Daemon Primarchs aren't returning alone? So, with Angron, Perturabo, Magnus, and the rest I don't really care about, we are going to see...

Guilliman getting off the toilet? Lion is getting a kiss from Prince Charming? The Khan remembers he's a primarch and punches his way out of prison? Vulkan stops being a dick and comes back?

I kind of want to see Guilliman/Fulgrim round two, now that Fulgrim has had ten thousand years to rot his brain with Slaanesh...

Don't forget Ferrus growing his head back!

It'll be made of the same stuff his hands are. He secretly managed to find a way to keep his brain in his chest, so losing his head was only a 10,000 year inconvenience.

Whatever happened to his head in the first place? I know Fulgrim gave it to Horus, but then what happened to it? It could be that it isn't his body that grows his head back, but his head that grows his body back.

Or he could be like a planarian and we end up with two Ferruses (Ferri?)

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Nvs wrote:
What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.

Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.

Magnus and Ahriman aren't exactly BFFs after Ahriman took the book and cast the Rubric. I don't see why only one can exist considering the traitor legions tend not to operate coherently and are mostly just warbands.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Nvs wrote:
What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.

Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.

Ahriman doesn't control the Thousand Sons, he has a Warband called The Prodigal Sons that was banished from the Planet of Sorcerers where Magnus rules. Magnus hates Ahriman, so unless he randomly shows up to help the Space Wolves, we won't see him die.

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.

If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.

If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that.
Don't make 40K War Machine.
Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space.
Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space.
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.

Pretty much this.
This approach of "Hey, I don't really like how 40k is played, I want it to be just like X!" that many people take pisses me off to no end.
Well how about no? How about we don't turn 40k into X just because you love X so much? How about you just go and play X?
I have nothing against just trimming points values, changing OP/UP special rules and formations. That's balancing work. Moving all the special rules to datasheets is also fine, scince it literally changes nothing, just makes stuff more convenient. Hell, it's like the only good thing to come out of AoS.
But that's not all people are suggesting, is it? Oh no. For some reason it never occurs to them that there are others that do like having a buttload of special rules and how they synergise with each other, the mechanic of formations and how they allow for more playstiles, etc., etc.
Why did we come to a point where people think it's acceptable to compromise the fun of Y for others just so they could get more of their beloved X which they already have?

that's not what I was saying at all...when I say "strip it down to the basics" I mean keep the core concepts and rules but make the REST more modern. I want that so that the game can GROW...right now except for a few stores that are REALLY pushing 40K it's no played nearly as much as...say X-wing or Warmachine/Hordes. much as I don't like the AoS rules I give GW props for getting people to TALK about the game....do that for 40k PLUS smooth out/modernize the clunkier parts of the game and it can be a contender again (IMHO of course)

tpryan01 wrote:

Liberal_Perturabo wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
You know what i don't see on those warscrolls ? Options.

If you can't pick unit sizes, weapon options, upgrades etc.. you might as well be playing Warmachine with their neat little stat cards.

If I wanted to play War Machine I can already do that.
Don't make 40K War Machine.
Don't make 40K Kings of War in Space.
Don't make 40K Age of Sigmar in Space.
Don't make 40K Anything that automaticaly invalidates every codex.

Pretty much this.
This approach of "Hey, I don't really like how 40k is played, I want it to be just like X!" that many people take pisses me off to no end.
Well how about no? How about we don't turn 40k into X just because you love X so much? How about you just go and play X?
I have nothing against just trimming points values, changing OP/UP special rules and formations. That's balancing work. Moving all the special rules to datasheets is also fine, scince it literally changes nothing, just makes stuff more convenient. Hell, it's like the only good thing to come out of AoS.
But that's not all people are suggesting, is it? Oh no. For some reason it never occurs to them that there are others that do like having a buttload of special rules and how they synergise with each other, the mechanic of formations and how they allow for more playstiles, etc., etc.
Why did we come to a point where people think it's acceptable to compromise the fun of Y for others just so they could get more of their beloved X which they already have?

that's not what I was saying at all...when I say "strip it down to the basics" I mean keep the core concepts and rules but make the REST more modern. I want that so that the game can GROW...right now except for a few stores that are REALLY pushing 40K it's no played nearly as much as...say X-wing or Warmachine/Hordes. much as I don't like the AoS rules I give GW props for getting people to TALK about the game....do that for 40k PLUS smooth out/modernize the clunkier parts of the game and it can be a contender again (IMHO of course)

Are there any Warmachine/Hordes tournaments that are as big as LVO/BAO/Adepticon/NOVA/ATC/ETC? Honestly asking, I don't know the scene that well, but those 40k events are always massive.

 Jadenim wrote:
Rules misalignment within factions is why I favour a core book / supplement model that they've only half-heartedly implemented at the moment.

For example, all basic SM vehicles, units and equipment should be in a single book. The more divergent chapters then have a supplement that just covers their unique bits, rather than a full codex.

Or you ditch the entire codex concept and go to free (or minimal cost) data sheet downloads that allows you to update everything as and when you need to make a change. I also think this can work as your "codex" can then become a collectors type book with all the fluff, artwork, painting guides etc. for your army. They'd still sell a bunch of them because the core market is enthusiastic completionists, who like to have everything to do with their chosen faction(s). See also collectors edition codices and the FW black books/red book arrangement.

I like your ideas. I wonder if they went with a free download army list concept just how it would impact their cash flows.
Veteran gamers (anecdotally and personally) tend to buy less model-wise but still buy the new rulebook and army books if they want to stay current.
Wondering if enough of them would shift to buying more toys to make free army books a viable concept.

I'm a fan of 3rd 40k's core book with the get-you-by army lists in the back as a complete game.
I also liked Ravening Hordes for WFB (6th edition, I think) since it did the same thing.

yeah PP has their own major event in the US (Lock and load) and my experience with mid-size conventions in my area (Captaincon and Templecon) are several hundred people for the games. I tend to see more actual Warmahordes play than 40k too.

Requizen wrote:

Are there any Warmachine/Hordes tournaments that are as big as LVO/BAO/Adepticon/NOVA/ATC/ETC? Honestly asking, I don't know the scene that well, but those 40k events are always massive.

Difficult to compare, but PP has their own official Events in US and EU and they are much bigger than the actual official GW Events (which are only in England).
While private tournaments for 40k tend to be bigger than the WM/H but the this is changing at least here because the 40k tournament scene is shrinking while WM/H tournaments are growing

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Jadenim wrote:
Rules misalignment within factions is why I favour a core book / supplement model that they've only half-heartedly implemented at the moment.

For example, all basic SM vehicles, units and equipment should be in a single book. The more divergent chapters then have a supplement that just covers their unique bits, rather than a full codex.

Or you ditch the entire codex concept and go to free (or minimal cost) data sheet downloads that allows you to update everything as and when you need to make a change. I also think this can work as your "codex" can then become a collectors type book with all the fluff, artwork, painting guides etc. for your army. They'd still sell a bunch of them because the core market is enthusiastic completionists, who like to have everything to do with their chosen faction(s). See also collectors edition codices and the FW black books/red book arrangement.

I like your ideas. I wonder if they went with a free download army list concept just how it would impact their cash flows.
Veteran gamers (anecdotally and personally) tend to buy less model-wise but still buy the new rulebook and army books if they want to stay current.
Wondering if enough of them would shift to buying more toys to make free army books a viable concept.

I'm a fan of 3rd 40k's core book with the get-you-by army lists in the back as a complete game.
I also liked Ravening Hordes for WFB (6th edition, I think) since it did the same thing.

GW needs people to buy models or rules or both to make money. If they want people to buy models then they have to keep adding new units so that they can appeal to both new and veteran gamers. New units can also lead to expanding model counts for games and more rules bloat as new models typically get new rules. If they want people to buy rulebooks then they have to keep cranking out new additions and codexes so that they can appeal to both new and veteran gamers. New rulebooks can also lead to invalidating units, changes to previous army comp and force org, rules bloat, and codex creep/power imbalances. Currently GW does both and 40k suffers from both sets of problems. How should GW change things so that they keep up their revenue stream while removing some of the problems in the game? I have no idea, I'm not a games designer. One idea that comes to mind is maybe pushing other gameplay options? GW could throw more support behind Necromunda, Inq28, Kill Team, etc. to try to encourage gamers to either buy additional rulesets at an affordable cost or be motivated by free rules to buy more models to create new forces to play in the different game types. I always thought it was odd how GW kept Necromunda separate and distinct from all the 40k lines when there was so much crossover potential and why they changed the scale for Inquisitor. I don't game much anymore so I could be off base with these ideas but that's what comes to mind.

 privateer4hire wrote:

I like your ideas. I wonder if they went with a free download army list concept just how it would impact their cash flows.
Veteran gamers (anecdotally and personally) tend to buy less model-wise but still buy the new rulebook and army books if they want to stay current.
Wondering if enough of them would shift to buying more toys to make free army books a viable concept.

I'm a fan of 3rd 40k's core book with the get-you-by army lists in the back as a complete game.
I also liked Ravening Hordes for WFB (6th edition, I think) since it did the same thing.

Look at PP.
Rules come for free with the models, core rules are free to download, and people are still buying the printed factions books or digital cards.
Another example how free stuff increase sales would be the monty pythons youtube page. After the put their sketches for free on YT, their DvD sales increased by 15%.

So free rules/codex books would mean that veterans more likely start another faction instead of sticking to one (back in time when books were cheaper most people I played with had 3 or 4 armies but after the change and they would had to spend 80€ just to get the latest rules they only updated their most favoured faction) while collectors would buy the hard copy anyway

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Jadenim wrote:
Rules misalignment within factions is why I favour a core book / supplement model that they've only half-heartedly implemented at the moment.

For example, all basic SM vehicles, units and equipment should be in a single book. The more divergent chapters then have a supplement that just covers their unique bits, rather than a full codex.

Or you ditch the entire codex concept and go to free (or minimal cost) data sheet downloads that allows you to update everything as and when you need to make a change. I also think this can work as your "codex" can then become a collectors type book with all the fluff, artwork, painting guides etc. for your army. They'd still sell a bunch of them because the core market is enthusiastic completionists, who like to have everything to do with their chosen faction(s). See also collectors edition codices and the FW black books/red book arrangement.

I like your ideas. I wonder if they went with a free download army list concept just how it would impact their cash flows.
Veteran gamers (anecdotally and personally) tend to buy less model-wise but still buy the new rulebook and army books if they want to stay current.
Wondering if enough of them would shift to buying more toys to make free army books a viable concept.

I'm a fan of 3rd 40k's core book with the get-you-by army lists in the back as a complete game.
I also liked Ravening Hordes for WFB (6th edition, I think) since it did the same thing.

On the flip side, buying the codex is a barrier to picking up more cool minis. If I wanted to field an Imperial Knight, not only would I need to grab the (expensive) mini, but the book as well. Or if I wanted to add a small guard detachment to hold the backfield for may marines. Not just the current rules, but committing to maintain buying the books to keep them up to date. I’ve got guard and blood angels on my shelf. Haven’t picked up rules for them since 3rd. I see new releases, and I’d love to grab them. But I already have two main armies (SM, Eldar) and I’m not going to commit to the rules for more then that. I spend more then I’m happy with on books right now.

The big question is if the number of minis sold to people like me would outweigh the losses of codex sales.

Also, how many more people would start the game is they didn’t have to drop the cash for all the books.

Requizen wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Nvs wrote:
What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.

Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.

Ahriman doesn't control the Thousand Sons, he has a Warband called The Prodigal Sons that was banished from the Planet of Sorcerers where Magnus rules. Magnus hates Ahriman, so unless he randomly shows up to help the Space Wolves, we won't see him die.

You're missing the point he's making. He's not talking about fluff. He's talking about the minis.

Prestor Jon wrote:
I have no idea, I'm not a games designer. One idea that comes to mind is maybe pushing other gameplay options? GW could throw more support behind Necromunda, Inq28, Kill Team, etc. to try to encourage gamers to either buy additional rulesets at an affordable cost or be motivated by free rules to buy more models to create new forces to play in the different game types.

If GW would give rules out for free and keep everything streamlined and on the same level.
An option to keep sales going would be to add new units and upgrade kits. ForgeWorld is doing well with this System and there are enough Marine Chapters to keep people playing.

Next thing would be get a different playstyle to each faction. As long as all of them play the same there is no motivation to start a new one.

And of course new units help to keep sales up, but only if they are not over the top and have rules which are on the same level. This could be done with campaign books. (FW is doing this for a long time now and it works)

I have to say something here. Despite all the praise PP gets, sure their rules are free, but they have the same problems with balance as 40k does. Sure, they don't have as many formation and imbalance issues, but they still exist. There are still unusable units in WarmaHordes, OP units, and OP armies.

Quit acting like GW Is the first company to have imbalance between factions.

 kodos wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Are there any Warmachine/Hordes tournaments that are as big as LVO/BAO/Adepticon/NOVA/ATC/ETC? Honestly asking, I don't know the scene that well, but those 40k events are always massive.

Difficult to compare, but PP has their own official Events in US and EU and they are much bigger than the actual official GW Events (which are only in England).
While private tournaments for 40k tend to be bigger than the WM/H but the this is changing at least here because the 40k tournament scene is shrinking while WM/H tournaments are growing

WMH is a very tournament-oriented game though, so I'm not surprised. PP has like 3% the revenue of GW so they're not really competitors in that sense. X-Wing is a whole other matter though, that is crazy big.

Agreed. The sheer number of units and armies and now alliances makes balancing the game (even if they never made a new unit) extremely difficult if not impossible. You'd almost have to have a variable points calculator that took into account the enemy force composition and even that would be just a huge guessing machine.

I know it's anathema but playing games where players immediately refaced each other but had to swap sides and armies with identical deployment both games and same army getting the first go would really help improve balance in-match.

People won't do that because they don't want somebody touching their miniatures (and probably because deep-down that netlist or master list you've constructed probably isn't as much fun when you're on the receiving end).

 jreilly89 wrote:
I have to say something here. Despite all the praise PP gets, sure their rules are free, but they have the same problems with balance as 40k does. Sure, they don't have as many formation and imbalance issues, but they still exist. There are still unusable units in WarmaHordes, OP units, and OP armies.

Quit acting like GW Is the first company to have imbalance between factions.

The difference is that PP tries to have balance while GW just throws darts at a random chart, so Warmachine is reasonably balanced considering the complexity of the system, while 40k is worse than what an average 9th grader could write.

 kodos wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:
I have no idea, I'm not a games designer. One idea that comes to mind is maybe pushing other gameplay options? GW could throw more support behind Necromunda, Inq28, Kill Team, etc. to try to encourage gamers to either buy additional rulesets at an affordable cost or be motivated by free rules to buy more models to create new forces to play in the different game types.

If GW would give rules out for free and keep everything streamlined and on the same level.
An option to keep sales going would be to add new units and upgrade kits. ForgeWorld is doing well with this System and there are enough Marine Chapters to keep people playing.

Next thing would be get a different playstyle to each faction. As long as all of them play the same there is no motivation to start a new one.

And of course new units help to keep sales up, but only if they are not over the top and have rules which are on the same level. This could be done with campaign books. (FW is doing this for a long time now and it works)

That sounds like a solid plan. I've never had the funds or inclination to get into the FW side of the game so I'm not familiar with the 30k books and rules. Seems odd that FW can get it right but GW struggles with it so much. Is faction bloat a problem for 40k? Isn't 30k basically just SM, CSM and AdMech? Adding in all the Xenos in 40k along with a fully developed IG faction brings in a lot more rules and balance issues.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Quit acting like GW Is the first company to have imbalance between factions.

But they are the only one that don't even try to solve it or work on the problems their rules have (just adding another random table to fix the issue)
A new edition is a complete new game instead of an improvement to the exiting rules and this makes it even harder to balance things.

PP is not perfect, but MKIII is re-balancing the factions and units and all of them getting new points/profiles at the same time, which is something 40k has never seen (and there are much less different units than in WM/H)

 kodos wrote:

Look at AoS, the new Handbook is not even out yet and the new FAQ give tipps how to abuse it.

It also says talk to your opponent and play like you want. So change rules, ignore rules if we so like. Why is wrong with that? Oh yeah, we need to talk and be social.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:
They will never have all the codexes come out at the same time.
That would be terrible for sales.

What like now?

Davor wrote:

It also says talk to your opponent and play like you want. So change rules, ignore rules if we so like. Why is wrong with that? Oh yeah, we need to talk and be social.

I see, I need to pay GW to be allowed to create my own rules to play with their models.

But why do I need to buy rules for 200 if I still need to create my own rules.
What is the reason to buy their rulebook.

I just go to the local store, meet a friend talk to him and play with our fresh created rules without spending money. Should work out perfect.

Requizen wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Nvs wrote:
What makes you think they'll kill off Ahriman? I could see if it there was another Tzeentch CSM special character, but I doubt they'd do that.

Thousand Sons only need one boss man. Ahriman is finecast. Magnus will be plastic.

Ahriman doesn't control the Thousand Sons, he has a Warband called The Prodigal Sons that was banished from the Planet of Sorcerers where Magnus rules. Magnus hates Ahriman, so unless he randomly shows up to help the Space Wolves, we won't see him die.

GW can easily put him randomly there to kill him off though.

Depending on how much they want to change they could easily start killing off finecast characters. Too many models on sales isn't that effective and finecast is bit of a failure so wanting to reduce those isn't impossible.

GW can create all sort of weird storylines to kill off characters they want. 2 years ago who would have thought Teclis would help Malekith to become Phoenix king?

Prestor Jon wrote:
Is faction bloat a problem for 40k? Isn't 30k basically just SM, CSM and AdMech? Adding in all the Xenos in 40k along with a fully developed IG faction brings in a lot more rules and balance issues.

There are SM, CSM, Mechanicum, Imperial Army and up to a point Orks and Eldar (using mor or less their 40k rules) but FW manage to keep things in line if new units are added.

If you Compare the 5 SM+AdMech Codex in 40k with the Legion lists and Mechanicum in 30k, the GW ones are a lot worse regarding balance while FW has more different units than GW.

 kodos wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:
Is faction bloat a problem for 40k? Isn't 30k basically just SM, CSM and AdMech? Adding in all the Xenos in 40k along with a fully developed IG faction brings in a lot more rules and balance issues.

There are SM, CSM, Mechanicum, Imperial Army and up to a point Orks and Eldar (using mor or less their 40k rules) but FW manage to keep things in line if new units are added.

If you Compare the 5 SM+AdMech Codex in 40k with the Legion lists and Mechanicum in 30k, the GW ones are a lot worse regarding balance while FW has more different units than GW.

Sounds like the 40K End Times need to bring the game more in line with 30K than with AOS. I know 30K makes money but it seems like GW would be better off moving the FW team 40K.

 VeteranNoob wrote:

Warhams-77 wrote:
There is some good info about the Warzone Fenris developments from the author of the 2nd novel/ebook series in this ~1 1/2 h podcast. I'm halfway through his part and it gets surprisingly interesting. Good stuff to listen to during a paint session - although the sound quality could be better (it is an voip interview).


Robbie MacNiven - Combat Phase podcast (spoiler warning)

The WZF part starts at ~32:35 min.

http://faeit212communitynews.blogspot.de/2016/06/ep-151-combat-phase-legacy-of-russ.html

Yeah, his audio on Skype was a bit rough to work in. But I'm glad you got something out of it.
I think Robbie will be a rising star at BL in the years to come.

A really enjoyable podcast with a lot of info, thank you for doing it. I will check out more episodes during the weekend.