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Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Do we have any Swedish here ? Is it really an outbreak ?


No.

I feel safe going out at night and I am a 19 year old in the middle of the danger zone.


So as a resident Swede, how would you describe the situation?


Exaggerated beyond belief by desperate sensationalists with no idea of what they are actually talking about.

It is honestly getting a bit patronising that people keep telling us of the woeful chaos in our country while the reality of life here has nothing to do with the political agendas people are nervously pushing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/02 10:10:07


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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






 Peregrine wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
This is a complete red herring they are trying to trick the reader by showing the increase in yearly immigration has no correlation with increasing rape figures but note they do not show any data from 2007 prior to when the refugee influx started en mass, now look at the graph I have added from Wikipedia which includes data from prior years and you can clearly see why they have omitted it, because it doesn't support the "facts" that they are pushing.


Omitting data prior to 2007 shouldn't matter. If immigrants are more likely to commit rapes then there should be an increase in rapes every year since 2007. The increase from the first year of "en mass" immigrants should be repeated every year that a similar number of immigrants enters the country. If you add ~150,000 new immigrants between 2011 and 2013 while the number of rapes goes down then one of three things must be true: the ~150,000 new immigrants must be countered by an equal or greater amount of former immigrants leaving the country, new immigrants only commit a higher number of rapes over the first year they are in the country and then stop, or new immigrants are no more likely to commit rapes than anyone else. And either of the second two options rather conclusively disprove the idea that immigrants are somehow inherently worse than the existing residents.

Also, I'd like to point out that this is not a question of ideology here. Like it or not, the math simply does not support your argument.


You are suggesting that all the offenders have been allowed to continue on a yearly basis after they have been reported. This is not how it works as criminals are taken out of circulation. So the somewhat consistent figures with a consistent rate of immigration makes sense. Do you simply dismiss the spike in sex crimes reported from 2007 -2008 and if so why?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/02 10:28:31


 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




Tank_Dweller wrote:
You are suggesting that all the offenders have been allowed to continue on a yearly basis after they have been reported. This is not how it works as criminals are taken out of circulation.


But of all crime types reported the different sex crimes are quite low on the number of sentences vs reports, aren't they? It's often literally word against word which rarely leads anywhere. It has to be a pretty clear case before someone is even sentenced, and also pretty brutal before that sentence means he's actually put away for any significant time.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Tank_Dweller wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
This is a complete red herring they are trying to trick the reader by showing the increase in yearly immigration has no correlation with increasing rape figures but note they do not show any data from 2007 prior to when the refugee influx started en mass, now look at the graph I have added from Wikipedia which includes data from prior years and you can clearly see why they have omitted it, because it doesn't support the "facts" that they are pushing.


Omitting data prior to 2007 shouldn't matter. If immigrants are more likely to commit rapes then there should be an increase in rapes every year since 2007. The increase from the first year of "en mass" immigrants should be repeated every year that a similar number of immigrants enters the country. If you add ~150,000 new immigrants between 2011 and 2013 while the number of rapes goes down then one of three things must be true: the ~150,000 new immigrants must be countered by an equal or greater amount of former immigrants leaving the country, new immigrants only commit a higher number of rapes over the first year they are in the country and then stop, or new immigrants are no more likely to commit rapes than anyone else. And either of the second two options rather conclusively disprove the idea that immigrants are somehow inherently worse than the existing residents.

Also, I'd like to point out that this is not a question of ideology here. Like it or not, the math simply does not support your argument.


You are suggesting that all the offenders have been allowed to continue on a yearly basis after they have been reported. This is not how it works as criminals are taken out of circulation. So the somewhat consistent figures with a consistent rate of immigration makes sense. Do you simply dismiss the spike in sex crimes reported from 2007 -2008 and if so why?


Dismiss is not the right word but it was noted that a change in Swedish sex crime law in 2005 caused an increase in reporting and this may have something to do with the increased numbers of reports.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

If there's a major increase in actual, as opposed to nominal, rapes in Sweden this should show up in the national victimization studies("Nationella trygghetsundersökningen", link in Swedish). As can be seen on page 47 ("Utsatta för sexualbrott 2005–2012. Andel för respektive kön. (Tabell 3B)", figure 17), that is not the case; the number of people who respond that they've been the victims of a sexual crime ("utsatta för sexualbrott") have remained more or less constant since the measurements begain in 2005. Ergo, the nominal increase in rapes is much more likely to be due to a widened definition of rape than dem dirty furriners.

I'd also like to note that we've had three threads on rape in Sweden since New Year, in which immigrants are immediately blamed for the increase. I've posted the same statistical explanations in each one of them, but the threads keep coming. I'd posit that at this point there is no genuine interest in discussing the topic, but that the threads rather exist so that some posters can spew their xenophobic BS somewhere and leaving the rest of us to clean up their mess. It's getting really old.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 godardc wrote:
I miss the old days when rapists / criminals were punished, instead now we distribute wristband...
Something is soooo wrong with the 21st century and Europe.
I'm very sad for Europe.

I'm very sad that you don't understand the difference between "groping"(what the topic is about--Swedish Police issuing wristbands to start conversations that groping women is wrong) and "rape".

In both cases, it's not something that should be happening--but groping doesn't necessarily get discussed/charged in the same manner as rape outside of Sweden(as from what Swedish posters in this thread have said, Sweden has altered their laws regarding sexual assault to include groping).
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






Spetulhu wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
You are suggesting that all the offenders have been allowed to continue on a yearly basis after they have been reported. This is not how it works as criminals are taken out of circulation.


But of all crime types reported the different sex crimes are quite low on the number of sentences vs reports, aren't they? It's often literally word against word which rarely leads anywhere. It has to be a pretty clear case before someone is even sentenced, and also pretty brutal before that sentence means he's actually put away for any significant time.


The report does not even try to explain away the vast increase of sex crime reports, it purely concentrates on the rape figures which are convictions otherwise they would not be counted as such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
This is a complete red herring they are trying to trick the reader by showing the increase in yearly immigration has no correlation with increasing rape figures but note they do not show any data from 2007 prior to when the refugee influx started en mass, now look at the graph I have added from Wikipedia which includes data from prior years and you can clearly see why they have omitted it, because it doesn't support the "facts" that they are pushing.


Omitting data prior to 2007 shouldn't matter. If immigrants are more likely to commit rapes then there should be an increase in rapes every year since 2007. The increase from the first year of "en mass" immigrants should be repeated every year that a similar number of immigrants enters the country. If you add ~150,000 new immigrants between 2011 and 2013 while the number of rapes goes down then one of three things must be true: the ~150,000 new immigrants must be countered by an equal or greater amount of former immigrants leaving the country, new immigrants only commit a higher number of rapes over the first year they are in the country and then stop, or new immigrants are no more likely to commit rapes than anyone else. And either of the second two options rather conclusively disprove the idea that immigrants are somehow inherently worse than the existing residents.

Also, I'd like to point out that this is not a question of ideology here. Like it or not, the math simply does not support your argument.


You are suggesting that all the offenders have been allowed to continue on a yearly basis after they have been reported. This is not how it works as criminals are taken out of circulation. So the somewhat consistent figures with a consistent rate of immigration makes sense. Do you simply dismiss the spike in sex crimes reported from 2007 -2008 and if so why?


Dismiss is not the right word but it was noted that a change in Swedish sex crime law in 2005 caused an increase in reporting and this may have something to do with the increased numbers of reports.


Double standards much? Your report that "proves" immigration has no connection to rape tries to do so by showing a few years of consistent rape activity while a few years of consistent activity of sexual crime reports that would hinder your point is dismissed because of a change of reporting techniques that happened years prior. What ever happened to Occam's razor? why is it more likely that it's because of a change of laws that happened years prior versus a sudden influx of immigration that correlates exactly with a big increase in sexual crime reports? Can you not even entertain the possibility?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If there's a major increase in actual, as opposed to nominal, rapes in Sweden this should show up in the national victimization studies("Nationella trygghetsundersökningen", link in Swedish). As can be seen on page 47 ("Utsatta för sexualbrott 2005–2012. Andel för respektive kön. (Tabell 3B)", figure 17), that is not the case; the number of people who respond that they've been the victims of a sexual crime ("utsatta för sexualbrott") have remained more or less constant since the measurements begain in 2005. Ergo, the nominal increase in rapes is much more likely to be due to a widened definition of rape than dem dirty furriners.

I'd also like to note that we've had three threads on rape in Sweden since New Year, in which immigrants are immediately blamed for the increase. I've posted the same statistical explanations in each one of them, but the threads keep coming. I'd posit that at this point there is no genuine interest in discussing the topic, but that the threads rather exist so that some posters can spew their xenophobic BS somewhere and leaving the rest of us to clean up their mess. It's getting really old.


I have already posted these figures they are on the chart but I can't for the life of me understand how a survey that can easily be manipulated or is usually not accurate by its nature (Brexit anyone?) some how trumps the official figures?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would like to add I am not xenophobic I am a minority myself, I am neither liberal or conservative, I do not allow myself to be swayed by ideals, I go where the facts present themselves and I amend my opinion from new information and by having discussions such as these. I find it sad that people need defend their positions with name calling rather than participating in actual open debate.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/07/02 13:43:29


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Ashiraya wrote:

It is honestly getting a bit patronising that people keep telling us of the woeful chaos in our country while the reality of life here has nothing to do with the political agendas people are nervously pushing.


Now you know how many Americans feel in shooting threads.

"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Tank_Dweller wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:


I have already posted these figures they are on the chart but I can't for the life of me understand how a survey that can easily be manipulated or is usually not accurate by its nature (Brexit anyone?) some how trumps the official figures?


Because

a) This is an official survey

b) They're not at odds

They only "trump" official figures in your mind because you've already decided that it must be the immigrants that are behind the nominal increase. The two fit together without having to make any unfounded assumptions. You speak of Occam's Razor yourself. Considering the number of people reporting that they've been victims of sex crimes remains more or less constant and that the amout of reported crimes have increased, it stands to reason that this increase is due primarily to the changes in definitions.

What reason do you have for presuming that the increase is due to immigration, beyond a correlation?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/02 15:16:00


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Okay, this is definitely not a good way to combat rape... Do they really think molesters will be deterred by bracelets?


Also, almost everything I read on it says that Sweden is the rape capital of Europe. It also makes it sound like Sweden has some very serious problems with out of control PC lefties. Is it really that bad or just typical internet dramatisation?


Internet hyperbole. As an example, take the debate in Sweden about the so-called "negerboll", a small chocolate pastry literally translated as "niggerball". Lately there's been calls to call it chockladboll, or "chocolate ball", instead, seeing as "neger" has been used in a derogatory sense for ages. Cue the anti-PC brigade with 0 sense of appropriateness or common decency. There's seriously a bunch of people fighting tooth and nail for their right to keep calling the pastry "negerboll", as if the fate of the world hung in the balance. To these people, any attempt to consider the point-of-view of anyone who's not in the majority (i.e. a white Swede) is cultural Marxism and PC. These people also tend to dislike homosexuals and feminists, so they're thoroughly displeased with the current situation and are thus doing everything they can to change it.

I'll also confidently say that anyone that's describing Sweden as "the rape capital of Europe" with a straight face either has an agenda or does not understand statistical comparisons at all.

Funny, there was virtually the same discussion in the Netherlands. We had a chocolate treat named "negerzoen" or "[see forum posting rules]'s kiss" which was changed, causing much outrage. Everyone still calls it a "negerzoen" though.
I had no idea the left vs right fight was so radicalised in Sweden. I've always thought of Sweden as a very leftist, liberal country. Is that correct or is there a lot of conservatism? And is the perception that Sweden has a lot of problems with immigration and integration correct or is that internet nonsense too? Here in the Netherlands we never seem to get any news at all about Sweden, only the crazy stuff on the internet.

Ashiraya wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Do we have any Swedish here ? Is it really an outbreak ?


No.

I feel safe going out at night and I am a 19 year old in the middle of the danger zone.


So as a resident Swede, how would you describe the situation?


Exaggerated beyond belief by desperate sensationalists with no idea of what they are actually talking about.

It is honestly getting a bit patronising that people keep telling us of the woeful chaos in our country while the reality of life here has nothing to do with the political agendas people are nervously pushing.

That is really comforting to hear. But you can't really blame people when everything you read on the internet about Sweden makes it seem like a horrible place.

Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Nostromodamus wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:

It is honestly getting a bit patronising that people keep telling us of the woeful chaos in our country while the reality of life here has nothing to do with the political agendas people are nervously pushing.


Now you know how many Americans feel in shooting threads.


Immigrants are not firearms.

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Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






The Dog-house

 Ashiraya wrote:
 Nostromodamus wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:

It is honestly getting a bit patronising that people keep telling us of the woeful chaos in our country while the reality of life here has nothing to do with the political agendas people are nervously pushing.


Now you know how many Americans feel in shooting threads.


Immigrants are not firearms.


That's not quite the analogy he was making.

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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Well, let's not follow that rabbit down its hole.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Iron_Captain wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Okay, this is definitely not a good way to combat rape... Do they really think molesters will be deterred by bracelets?


Also, almost everything I read on it says that Sweden is the rape capital of Europe. It also makes it sound like Sweden has some very serious problems with out of control PC lefties. Is it really that bad or just typical internet dramatisation?


Internet hyperbole. As an example, take the debate in Sweden about the so-called "negerboll", a small chocolate pastry literally translated as "niggerball". Lately there's been calls to call it chockladboll, or "chocolate ball", instead, seeing as "neger" has been used in a derogatory sense for ages. Cue the anti-PC brigade with 0 sense of appropriateness or common decency. There's seriously a bunch of people fighting tooth and nail for their right to keep calling the pastry "negerboll", as if the fate of the world hung in the balance. To these people, any attempt to consider the point-of-view of anyone who's not in the majority (i.e. a white Swede) is cultural Marxism and PC. These people also tend to dislike homosexuals and feminists, so they're thoroughly displeased with the current situation and are thus doing everything they can to change it.

I'll also confidently say that anyone that's describing Sweden as "the rape capital of Europe" with a straight face either has an agenda or does not understand statistical comparisons at all.

Funny, there was virtually the same discussion in the Netherlands. We had a chocolate treat named "negerzoen" or "[see forum posting rules]'s kiss" which was changed, causing much outrage. Everyone still calls it a "negerzoen" though.
I had no idea the left vs right fight was so radicalised in Sweden. I've always thought of Sweden as a very leftist, liberal country. Is that correct or is there a lot of conservatism? And is the perception that Sweden has a lot of problems with immigration and integration correct or is that internet nonsense too? Here in the Netherlands we never seem to get any news at all about Sweden, only the crazy stuff on the internet.


From an international point-of-view our politics aren't that polarized. There was a major kerfluffle when an MP for the Left Party refused to call the second vice Speaker of the Riksdag "Mr. Speaker" as a protest against the Sweden Democrats (to which the second vice speaker belongs). If you'd place someone like Nigel Farage in the Swedish Riksdag he'd get thrown out for being far too rude.

If immigration was going to break Sweden it should already have happened during the wars in the Balkans, when we took a load of refugees in from there. Today they've integrated reasonably well in society (there's obviously always room for improvement).

Think of it this way: internationally no one really gave a rat's ass about the rape statistics in Sweden, despite the fact that the jump from 2004 to 2005 happened. It only became interesting once people realized they could use it to bludgeon immigration with.

I found this article in the Globe and Mail that sums up the situation rather well. Just don't ever try to bring up socioeconomic status as a stronger correlation than immigrant status or you're a commienazi.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

I have no interest in making this a gun thread, but what usually happens in those - people calmly discussing the drawbacks and advantages of firearms (well, until the thread inevitably breaks down) - is the exact opposite of what I am objecting against.

You are free to do the same with immigration. But that is not what is happening. People are spreading the idea that Sweden is a rape-infested wild west where immigrant criminals are running rampant, which is simply false.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/02 15:34:04


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Regular Dakkanaut






 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
Spetulhu wrote:


I have already posted these figures they are on the chart but I can't for the life of me understand how a survey that can easily be manipulated or is usually not accurate by its nature (Brexit anyone?) some how trumps the official figures?


Because

a) This is an official survey

b) They're not at odds

They only "trump" official figures in your mind because you've already decided that it must be the immigrants that are behind the nominal increase. The two fit together without having to make any unfounded assumptions. You speak of Occam's Razor yourself. Considering the number of people reporting that they've been victims of sex crimes remains more or less constant and that the amout of reported crimes have increased, it stands to reason that this increase is due primarily to the changes in definitions.

What reason do you have for presuming that the increase is due to immigration, beyond a correlation?


The survey does not trump official figures and here is why. First of all it is only open to 16-79 year olds. Secondly, please read this excerpt from the 2015 study.

This report presents the overall results of the 2015 Swedish Crime Survey (Swedish abbreviation: NTU). Approximately 12,400 persons responded to the questions; this was a 63 per cent response rate to the survey. Most participated through telephone interviews, but a smaller percentage participated through posted questionnaires or Internet questionnaires. The results of the report are summarised below, divided into the following areas of enquiry: exposure to crime, insecurity, trust in the criminal justice system, and victims’ contacts with the justice system.


It is not even mandatory. Since you can't even be bothered to check your own evidence for something as simple as this I really don't want to waste my time explaining to you the concept of Occam's Razor and how it applies to my example, it is simple and straightforward please look at it again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/02 15:46:20


 
   
Made in ie
Jovial Junkatrukk Driver





Angloland

This whole thing is really confusing, on one side you have people who try to blame most of the problems that exist on refugees and migrants while on the other side you have people who refuse to admit there is anything wrong with the behaviours of these refugees and migrants.

I am more inclined to think that the Muslim immigrants are to blame for atleast some (or even a lot) of whats going on, considering how they treat women back in their own countries but I could be wrong, Its hard to get a good feeling about whats going on as everyone is pushing some political agenda.

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Regular Dakkanaut






 Daemonhammer wrote:
This whole thing is really confusing, on one side you have people who try to blame most of the problems that exist on refugees and migrants while on the other side you have people who refuse to admit there is anything wrong with the behaviours of these refugees and migrants.

I am more inclined to think that the Muslim immigrants are to blame for atleast some (or even a lot) of whats going on, considering how they treat women back in their own countries but I could be wrong, Its hard to get a good feeling about whats going on as everyone is pushing some political agenda.


Yes the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Tank_Dweller wrote:
 Daemonhammer wrote:
This whole thing is really confusing, on one side you have people who try to blame most of the problems that exist on refugees and migrants while on the other side you have people who refuse to admit there is anything wrong with the behaviours of these refugees and migrants.

I am more inclined to think that the Muslim immigrants are to blame for atleast some (or even a lot) of whats going on, considering how they treat women back in their own countries but I could be wrong, Its hard to get a good feeling about whats going on as everyone is pushing some political agenda.


Yes the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.


Golden mean fallacy.

You still haven't explained why you'd assume that immigration is behind the increases rather than changing attitudes and changing legislation, nor have you explained why the results of the victimization survey is not valid. Yes, it's not mandatory. Almost no survey is, and they're still used in statistical analysis all the time.

Do you have ANYTHING at all that actually proves causation between increase in immigrants and the rape rate? Anything?

Let's put it this way: if muslim immigrants (because let's face it, those are the ones that are being discussed) are so much more likely to rape people, why are the rape statistics from predominantly muslim countries so low? Qatar hasn't had a single rape! They must be amazing at rape prevention! If the answer is "because comparisons across countries on these issues are tricky and the nominal reports may not match the real number of rapes" then good job, you're one step closer to realizing why this whole "argument" is silly.

As for the Occam's razor part:

"Change in definition of rape leads to changed number of reported rapes" is a LOT les complex than "change in definition of rape doesn't explain anything, the real reason, despite statistical evidence to the contrary, is immigrants".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/02 16:02:10


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in ie
Jovial Junkatrukk Driver





Angloland

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
 Daemonhammer wrote:
This whole thing is really confusing, on one side you have people who try to blame most of the problems that exist on refugees and migrants while on the other side you have people who refuse to admit there is anything wrong with the behaviours of these refugees and migrants.

I am more inclined to think that the Muslim immigrants are to blame for atleast some (or even a lot) of whats going on, considering how they treat women back in their own countries but I could be wrong, Its hard to get a good feeling about whats going on as everyone is pushing some political agenda.


Yes the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.


Golden mean fallacy.

You still haven't explained why you'd assume that immigration is behind the increases rather than changing attitudes and changing legislation, nor have you explained why the results of the victimization survey is not valid. Yes, it's not mandatory. Almost no survey is, and they're still used in statistical analysis all the time.

Do you have ANYTHING at all that actually proves causation between increase in immigrants and the rape rate? Anything?


I just said that I am more inclined to believe that Muslim immigrants are to blame atleast partially to blame because of how women get treated in Muslim countries. Im not saying its a fact and that its true, Its merely an observation that I made, it seems to make some sense to me.

motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
 Daemonhammer wrote:
This whole thing is really confusing, on one side you have people who try to blame most of the problems that exist on refugees and migrants while on the other side you have people who refuse to admit there is anything wrong with the behaviours of these refugees and migrants.

I am more inclined to think that the Muslim immigrants are to blame for atleast some (or even a lot) of whats going on, considering how they treat women back in their own countries but I could be wrong, Its hard to get a good feeling about whats going on as everyone is pushing some political agenda.


Yes the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.


Golden mean fallacy.

You still haven't explained why you'd assume that immigration is behind the increases rather than changing attitudes and changing legislation, nor have you explained why the results of the victimization survey is not valid. Yes, it's not mandatory. Almost no survey is, and they're still used in statistical analysis all the time.

Do you have ANYTHING at all that actually proves causation between increase in immigrants and the rape rate? Anything?


I'll debate you on it if you can concede on your laziness with regards to fact checking. I have no interest in debating someone who willfully ignores new facts proven to them as I may as well be debating a tape recording and I have better things to do.
   
Made in ie
Jovial Junkatrukk Driver





Angloland

And since both sides have their evidence, then its definitely a valid thing to say that "the truth is somewhere in the middle."

motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Tank_Dweller wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
 Daemonhammer wrote:
This whole thing is really confusing, on one side you have people who try to blame most of the problems that exist on refugees and migrants while on the other side you have people who refuse to admit there is anything wrong with the behaviours of these refugees and migrants.

I am more inclined to think that the Muslim immigrants are to blame for atleast some (or even a lot) of whats going on, considering how they treat women back in their own countries but I could be wrong, Its hard to get a good feeling about whats going on as everyone is pushing some political agenda.


Yes the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.


Golden mean fallacy.

You still haven't explained why you'd assume that immigration is behind the increases rather than changing attitudes and changing legislation, nor have you explained why the results of the victimization survey is not valid. Yes, it's not mandatory. Almost no survey is, and they're still used in statistical analysis all the time.

Do you have ANYTHING at all that actually proves causation between increase in immigrants and the rape rate? Anything?


I'll debate you on it if you can concede on your laziness with regards to fact checking. I have no interest in debating someone who willfully ignores new facts proven to them as I may as well be debating a tape recording and I have better things to do.


Sure, I didn't mention that it ran in an age span or that it wasn't mandatory because it doesn't matter. Do you have a reason to distrust the results of the victimization study?

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I don't get stuff like this. Normal people wouldn't grope a random woman on the street, and those who would wouldn't be stopped by some friggin bracelet. Either take meaningful action or no action at all.

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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
 Daemonhammer wrote:
This whole thing is really confusing, on one side you have people who try to blame most of the problems that exist on refugees and migrants while on the other side you have people who refuse to admit there is anything wrong with the behaviours of these refugees and migrants.

I am more inclined to think that the Muslim immigrants are to blame for atleast some (or even a lot) of whats going on, considering how they treat women back in their own countries but I could be wrong, Its hard to get a good feeling about whats going on as everyone is pushing some political agenda.


Yes the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.


Golden mean fallacy.

You still haven't explained why you'd assume that immigration is behind the increases rather than changing attitudes and changing legislation, nor have you explained why the results of the victimization survey is not valid. Yes, it's not mandatory. Almost no survey is, and they're still used in statistical analysis all the time.

Do you have ANYTHING at all that actually proves causation between increase in immigrants and the rape rate? Anything?


I'll debate you on it if you can concede on your laziness with regards to fact checking. I have no interest in debating someone who willfully ignores new facts proven to them as I may as well be debating a tape recording and I have better things to do.


Sure, I didn't mention that it ran in an age span or that it wasn't mandatory because it doesn't matter. Do you have a reason to distrust the results of the victimization study?


Seriously? are you trolling me. If you are being serious than the reason it does matter is because it doesn't paint the whole picture, it is missing huge swathes of data.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/02 16:11:41


 
   
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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Let's put it this way: if muslim immigrants (because let's face it, those are the ones that are being discussed) are so much more likely to rape people, why are the rape statistics from predominantly muslim countries so low? Qatar hasn't had a single rape! They must be amazing at rape prevention! If the answer is "because comparisons across countries on these issues are tricky and the nominal reports may not match the real number of rapes" then good job, you're one step closer to realizing why this whole "argument" is silly.

As for the Occam's razor part:

"Change in definition of rape leads to changed number of reported rapes" is a LOT les complex than "change in definition of rape doesn't explain anything, the real reason, despite statistical evidence to the contrary, is immigrants".


You may want to look up what constitutes 'rape' in Qatar and other nations with Sharia as the basis for their legal system, and what witnesses are allowed/the difference between male and female witnesses and so on.

You really are looking at two things that are not easily comparable.

Some links for thought:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/dutch-woman-allegedly-raped-qatar-sentenced-adultery-allowed/story?id=39816386

http://dohanews.co/what-to-know-about-rape-in-qatar/

And from Wiki:

Qatar is a destination country for men and women from South and Southeast Asia who migrate willingly, but are subsequently forced into involuntary servitude as domestic workers and laborers, and, to a lesser extent, commercial sexual exploitation. The most common offense was forcing workers to accept worse contract terms than those under which they were recruited. Other conditions include bonded labor, withholding of pay, restrictions on movement, arbitrary detention, and physical, mental, and sexual abuse. Qatar is in Tier 3 rank; it failed to enforce criminal laws against traffickers, or to provide an effective mechanism to identify and protect victims. The nation detain and deport victims rather than providing them protection. The Government of Qatar made little progress to increase prosecutions for trafficking effectively in 2007.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Qatar

I am willing to go out on a limb and state that a woman, especially one not from Qatar, has zero chance of being treated in anyway which would be considered 'just' in a western system. Even Qatari women are not treated as equal to men in their justice system.

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 CptJake wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Let's put it this way: if muslim immigrants (because let's face it, those are the ones that are being discussed) are so much more likely to rape people, why are the rape statistics from predominantly muslim countries so low? Qatar hasn't had a single rape! They must be amazing at rape prevention! If the answer is "because comparisons across countries on these issues are tricky and the nominal reports may not match the real number of rapes" then good job, you're one step closer to realizing why this whole "argument" is silly.

As for the Occam's razor part:

"Change in definition of rape leads to changed number of reported rapes" is a LOT les complex than "change in definition of rape doesn't explain anything, the real reason, despite statistical evidence to the contrary, is immigrants".


You may want to look up what constitutes 'rape' in Qatar and other nations with Sharia as the basis for their legal system, and what witnesses are allowed/the difference between male and female witnesses and so on.

You really are looking at two things that are not easily comparable.

Some links for thought:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/dutch-woman-allegedly-raped-qatar-sentenced-adultery-allowed/story?id=39816386

http://dohanews.co/what-to-know-about-rape-in-qatar/

And from Wiki:

Qatar is a destination country for men and women from South and Southeast Asia who migrate willingly, but are subsequently forced into involuntary servitude as domestic workers and laborers, and, to a lesser extent, commercial sexual exploitation. The most common offense was forcing workers to accept worse contract terms than those under which they were recruited. Other conditions include bonded labor, withholding of pay, restrictions on movement, arbitrary detention, and physical, mental, and sexual abuse. Qatar is in Tier 3 rank; it failed to enforce criminal laws against traffickers, or to provide an effective mechanism to identify and protect victims. The nation detain and deport victims rather than providing them protection. The Government of Qatar made little progress to increase prosecutions for trafficking effectively in 2007.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Qatar

I am willing to go out on a limb and state that a woman, especially one not from Qatar, has zero chance of being treated in anyway which would be considered 'just' in a western system. Even Qatari women are not treated as equal to men in their justice system.


Yes, thank you, I know the definition of "rape" is different from one country to another and that this makes comparisons difficult; that was my point.

Tank_Dweller wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tank_Dweller wrote:
 Daemonhammer wrote:
This whole thing is really confusing, on one side you have people who try to blame most of the problems that exist on refugees and migrants while on the other side you have people who refuse to admit there is anything wrong with the behaviours of these refugees and migrants.

I am more inclined to think that the Muslim immigrants are to blame for atleast some (or even a lot) of whats going on, considering how they treat women back in their own countries but I could be wrong, Its hard to get a good feeling about whats going on as everyone is pushing some political agenda.


Yes the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.


Golden mean fallacy.

You still haven't explained why you'd assume that immigration is behind the increases rather than changing attitudes and changing legislation, nor have you explained why the results of the victimization survey is not valid. Yes, it's not mandatory. Almost no survey is, and they're still used in statistical analysis all the time.

Do you have ANYTHING at all that actually proves causation between increase in immigrants and the rape rate? Anything?


I'll debate you on it if you can concede on your laziness with regards to fact checking. I have no interest in debating someone who willfully ignores new facts proven to them as I may as well be debating a tape recording and I have better things to do.


Sure, I didn't mention that it ran in an age span or that it wasn't mandatory because it doesn't matter. Do you have a reason to distrust the results of the victimization study?


Seriously? are you trolling me. If you are being serious than the reason it does matter is because it doesn't paint the whole picture, it is missing huge swathes of data.


There's still over 13,000 respondents. With a properly randomised sample that's more than enough to be representative of the (adult) population. Yes, you're missing young children and the elderly over 79 years of age, but it's not like scientific surveys ever query the entire population of a country.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/02 16:18:26


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You know what would also be an interesting number to dig up and look for correlations? The number of people who earn a living from studying sex crimes, caring for sex crime victims, making sex rime awareness wristbands or otherwise have a vested interest in convincing us there is a sex crime epidemic.

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AlmightyWalrus wrote:

There's still over 13,000 respondents. With a properly randomised sample that's more than enough to be representative of the (adult) population. Yes, you're missing young children and the elderly over 79 years of age, but it's not like scientific surveys ever query the entire population of a country.


Dude you are telling me to dismiss the actual official figures of people convicted of rape and reported sex crimes in favour of your "Official Survey" which is missing so much Data for reasons I have explained. If you can't get your head around why the Official figures are more valid than an optional survey for 16-79 year olds then honestly you should not be here stating "facts" because respectfully you do not know what you are talking about.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/02 16:40:51


 
   
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Sweden

Tank_Dweller wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:

There's still over 13,000 respondents. With a properly randomised sample that's more than enough to be representative of the (adult) population. Yes, you're missing young children and the elderly over 79 years of age, but it's not like scientific surveys ever query the entire population of a country.


Dude you are telling me to dismiss the actual official figures of people convicted of rape and reported sex crimes in favour of your "Official Survey" which is missing so much Data for reasons I have explained. If you can't get your head around why the Official figures are more valid than an optional survey for 16-79 year olds then honestly you should not be here stating "facts" because respectfully you do not know what you are talking about.


Respectfully, NO U.

13,000 respondents with a 63% response rate is well over the levels needed in order to generalize to the rest of the population. Further, I'm not telling you to ignore the reported rapes, I'm telling you that they don't mean what you think they do. The two are not in opposition.

Let's try this from the start, because I'm not sure if I follow anymore: What are the issues with the survey, and why are they a problem?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
 
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