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Bharring wrote:That list has Jetbikes, Psykers, *and* ranged D Wraithguard. But is it really cheese?

Yes. It's cheese in the same sense that taking Tigurius on foot, a unit of grav centurions on foot (no drop pod) and a squad of space marine bikes would be cheesy.

It's not very cheesy. But there are cheesy components.

Lose the psyker, the bikes and the wraithguard, and we might have something there, but even then, your list will probably be much more points efficient than anything someone of another codex comes up with, simply because the title of your codex has the word "Eldar" in it.

The Psykers aren't rolling Invisible or Fortune. And don't have Farseer runes.

Eldritch storm? Guide? Conceal/Reveal?

If Spirit Seers or Warlocks are casting Eldritch or Guide - or any Runes of Fate powers - they arent following the codex. Only Farseers can get those.

Conceal/Reveal would probably be used a lot in that list. Keeps it from completely falling apart to small arms fire. For a couple of the lighter units. Is that power really worse than book powers, even outside Invis?

Okay.

I have many 1850 configurations, but many have been scrapped.

So something you might actually see:

Captain, bike, powerfist, stormshield, artificer armor, auspex, combi-grav, veritas vitae

Sang priest, bike power axe, bolt pistol

Biker squad, 2 X grav, combi-grav, 5 bikes total

Biker squad 2 X grav, combi-grav, 3 bikes total

Tac squad, Rhino, dozer blade, extra armor, heavy flamer, combi-flamer

Tac squad, Rhino, dozer blade, extra armor, heavy flamer, combi-flamer

Tac squad, Rhino, dozer blade, extra armor, melta, combi-melta

Furioso, drop pod, frag cannon, magna grapple, deathwind launcher

Furioso, drop pod, frag cannon, magna grapple, deathwind launcher

ASM, drop pod, 2 X melta, combi-melta

DC, 5 men, power fist, jump packs

DC, 5 men, power fist, jump packs

Whirlwind or two.

Alternatively:

Priest, jump pack, veritas vitae, bolt pistol

Priest, jump pack, angel's wing, bolt pistol

CC scouts, meltabomb

CC scouts, meltabomb

CC scouts, meltabomb

CC scouts, meltabomb

Furioso, drop pod, frag cannon, magna grapple, deathwind launcher, locator beacon

Furioso, drop pod, frag cannon, magna grapple, deathwind launcher, locator beacon

ASM, drop pod, 2 X melta, combi-melta, locator beacon

Archangel sanguine wing

10X vanguard, jump pack, 5 power maul, 5 power axe, 10 X storm shields

10X vanguard, jump pack, 5 power maul, 5 power axe, 10 X storm shields

10 X Sternguard, 10 X combi-melta, power axe on sarge

Stormraven, AC, MM, sponsons, extra armor

Foot Cents have a 24" range, better firepower vs more targets, and a 2+. Sure, less cheesy on foothe than podded. If the rest of the list were PA Marines and/or Scouts, that wouldn't be a cheesy SM list with just them. Tiggy too might be pushing it, but it really depends on what else is there.

Those lists use the least crappy BA stuff I can come up with. Pretty sad.

Martel,
The Whirlwind or two will have a heyday removing the light infantry. Those Rangers and Guardians are in for a world of hurt.

Any one Grav bike unit easily gets the alpha on Wraithguard. They go down hard to 9 grav shots (hit on 3 kill on 3 means you kill 4.5 before Bolt guns shoot. And half a WG isn't much of a threat.)

Any of the Grav bikers would kill the Wraithlord outright.

That really just leaves the Wraith blades and Banshees for CC threats. The Banshees wound you on 6s, so even if they charge they aren't necessarily winning CC, especially if your Captain is present.

The banshees are boned worse by either a Furioso or Bolt weapons end masse. There are so many hard targets for them, you use those to engage the stuff near them. If they countercharge, they lose. If they don't, they do nothing until you decide to shoot them or even charge them.

The Windriders are going to be annoying, but can't do any serious damage.

If you pick your targets right, the CWE list is down to just a handful of light infantry with no good targets getting hammered hard by your Whirlwind, one battle tank (the other might have survived, but surely jinked), and the Wraith blades which you can kite with bolt guns and grav.

I don't see that going well for CWE.

Bharring, that's another problem with CWE, basically, same problem as Tau.

With Tau, you have two options:

1. Use cheese.
2. Lose

With Eldar, you have two options:

1. Use cheese.
2. Lose.

The "fun" list that you've posted has cheesy elements, but would still get stomped by any optimized (not the same thing as min-maxed), well-constructed list from another codex.

Thus, there are three reasons that the OP shouldn't buy the Eldar codex:

1. In other not to cheese.
2. In order not to present the appearance of cheese.
3. In order not to be forced into a situation where his only options are cheese or lose.

Here's the list that you presented:

Spirit Seer (Runes of Battle)
2xRangers
2xGuardian Defenders + Warlock + EML
1xStorm Guardians + Melta + Warlock
1xWindriders 3man, no weapon upgrades
1xShining Spears+Exarch+Laser Lance
1xSwooping Hawks (6) + Exarch + Sunrise
1xVyper+EML
1×Banshees+Exarch+Executioner
1xWraithguard (cannons)
1xWraithblades (Axes)
1xWraithlord+2xShuriken Cannons+ Sword
1xFalcon+BL+holo+ghostwalk
1xFire Prism+holo+ghostwalk

If you were playing against me, you'd be facing one of these two lists:

1. Crimson Fists - 1850 (I'd be running this as a CAD, though this is easily convertible into a gladius; all that would be added are meltabombs on assault sergeants, a captain with power fist and a chaplain)

Pedro Kantor
2 X 5 sternguard (in rhinos)
1 X 10 sternguard, combat squadded (in rhino)
2 X 5 assault marine squads (in rhinos with dozer blades), 2 of each of which have flamers
6 X 5 man tactical squads. 4 of which have missile launchers, 2 of which have plasma cannons. (1 missile launcher squad in rhino (because why the feth not?)).
2 X 5 man devastator squads, each having:
3 missile launchers with flakk and one lascannon

OR

Thousand Sons 1850 (dual CADs):

Ahriman
2 ML3 sorcerers with VotlW, sigil of corruption and mark of tzeentch. Force axe and boltpistol on one, stave on the other.
2 X 5 man thousand sons squads (in rhinos)
2 X 5 man havocs with VotlW, one with lascannons, the other with meltas (melta havoc in rhino )
2 X 5 man raptor squads with VotlW, combimelta and meltabombs on sergeants and 2 meltaguns in each squad
1 X 5 man CSM squad with VotlW, plasma gun (in rhino with dozer blades)
1 X 5 man chosen squad with VotlW, 2 of which have flamers (in rhino with dozer blades)
1 X 10 man cultist squad with 8 autoguns, shotgun and heavy stubber

Neither of these is a competitive list (though both are optimized for what they are). Neither of these is cheese...but I don't foresee things going well for the CWE player in either case.

 Traditio wrote:
Bharring, that's another problem with CWE, basically, same problem as Tau.

With Tau, you have two options:

1. Use cheese.
2. Lose

With Eldar, you have two options:

1. Use cheese.
2. Lose.

That just sounds completely wrong unless you have a pretty warped idea of cheese.

pm713 wrote:That just sounds completely wrong unless you have a pretty warped idea of cheese.

PM:

In another posting, you admitted to playing a CWE that doesn't use any of the cheese elements I complained about.

How do you think it would it fare against my missile launcher spam list?

I wish to emphasize that bit of the question: "missile launcher" spam.

Tradito, I hate to break it to you, but your lists are not that optimised.

"Thus, there are three reasons that the OP shouldn't buy the Eldar codex:

1. In other not to cheese.
2. In order not to present the appearance of cheese.
3. In order not to be forced into a situation where his only options are cheese or lose. "

This is nothing short of bonkers.

Here is the only reason the OP should buy the Eldar codex:

1) if he wants to.

It's his money, it's his hobby, and the reasoning of "his opponents might decide to be jerks to him because they're biased against the kind of little plastic mandolls he chose to play with" is profoundly sad.

I really can't do anything more than shake my head at the idea of someone not purchasing an army they like to "avoid the appearance of cheese."

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:That just sounds completely wrong unless you have a pretty warped idea of cheese.

PM:

In another posting, you admitted to playing a CWE that doesn't use any of the cheese elements I complained about.

How do you think it would it fare against my missile launcher spam list?

I wish to emphasize that bit of the question: "missile launcher" spam.

At a guess I'd say not that badly. It depends on terrain a bit but as long as it isn't close to planet bowling ball I think it would be okay.

If a list is a large collection of choices, each with varying affect on cheese levels, and it is shown that both a non-cheesy list and a cheesy list can both be made, I left it to the reader to understand the point was you can make lists of any strength level in between.

I wouldn't take Storm Guardians, but Banshees and Shining Spears show up often. With the CWE codex, you can build a list at about any level.

I was showing what I believe to be a concrete example of non-cheese. As such, it's an extreme. Obviously, the intention is to create a list at the local meta's level, not try to field the above exactly.

I would argue that the above list, and discussion of it, show this. Effectively proving the premise thathat non-trivial non-cheesy lists can be created.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Tradito, I hate to break it to you, but your lists are not that optimised.

All I mean by "optimized" is that there's no obvious wastes of points, anything that's superfluous or any obviously bad "mixes" of things.

I played relatively recently against a dude who was playing a skyhammer. In one of his devastator squads, he had a mix of lascannon, missile launcher and heavy bolter.

Optimized =/= min-maxed

A devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is optimized for its purpose.

A devastator squad with 2 heavy bolters and 2 lascannons is not.

 Traditio wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Tradito, I hate to break it to you, but your lists are not that optimised.

All I mean by "optimized" is that there's no obvious wastes of points, anything that's superfluous or any obviously bad "mixes" of things.

I played relatively recently against a dude who was playing a skyhammer. In one of his devastator squads, he had a mix of lascannon, missile launcher and heavy bolter.

Optimized =/= min-maxed

A devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is optimized for its purpose.

A devastator squad with 2 heavy bolters and 2 lascannons is not.

It isn't optimized because Heavy Bolter Devastators are bad. Even frickin Plasma Cannons are better.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It isn't optimized because Heavy Bolter Devastators are bad. Even frickin Plasma Cannons are better.

I fully agree that heavy bolters are bad (the sole exception would be in imperial fist tactical squads). That doesn't make a heavy bolter devastator squad any less optimized. I'm using "optimized" in a very broad sense to mean: "non-superfluous, non-wasteful and best geared for its task." If you want to kill light infantry at range, a heavy bolter devastator squad is optimized for that purpose.

12/1 X 2/3 X 2/3 = 48/6 = 24/3 = 8/1

You'll kill 8 orks in 'eavy armor per turn with that squad at 36 inch range.

8/1 X 2/3 = 16/3

About 5 if they're in cover.

Does that make devastators with heavy bolters good? No. But it does make that squad well-geared for what it's supposed to be doing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also wish to note, for what it's worth, that a heavy bolter devastator squad would make footdar lists cry.

In 40K circle "optimized" is synonymous with "best" and that's what most people will think when they see the term, so I suggest you use it in that context and not try and fabricate some other application.

 Traditio wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Tradito, I hate to break it to you, but your lists are not that optimised.

All I mean by "optimized" is that there's no obvious wastes of points, anything that's superfluous or any obviously bad "mixes" of things.

I played relatively recently against a dude who was playing a skyhammer. In one of his devastator squads, he had a mix of lascannon, missile launcher and heavy bolter.

Optimized =/= min-maxed

A devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters is optimized for its purpose.

A devastator squad with 2 heavy bolters and 2 lascannons is not.

I mean you are splitting your Devastators roles, giving the same unit ML's and Lascannons.
You are also lacking other staples such as armour and drop pod units and you are not taking any of the formation that could give you that boost.

Your Chaos one also lacks any real hard hitters and both dreads, and armour could add a lot to them.

It's not optimized because it has devastators in it.

master of ordinance wrote:I mean you are splitting your Devastators roles, giving the same unit ML's and Lascannons.

On paper, it looks like it. In practice, it doesn't really work out that way. Missile launchers and lascannons are both basically anti-tank; anti-MC weapons. When you add in imperial fist chapter tactics, the differences are relatively negligible. The only time the disparity is even noticeable is 1. against flying AV, but even then, if my opponent wasn't going to jink because of the 3 flakk missiles which reroll failed to-pen rolls, he's going to think twice about that lascannon shot which hits on 6s, glances on 3s and rerolls failed to-pen and 2. against targets with a 2+ armor save. At T6 and 3+ armor or inferior, missile launchers and lascannons are functionally equivalent. Against flying MCs, krak missiles and lascannons are functionally equivalent. Against wraithknights, the difference is negligible.

Basically, unless I am playing against terminator spam, landraider spam or flying AV spam, it doesn't make much of a difference.

The difference is also noticeable against light infantry spam, but then it's the lascannon shot that seems like a waste.

You are also lacking other staples such as armour and drop pod units and you are not taking any of the formation that could give you that boost.

Your Chaos one also lacks any real hard hitters and both dreads, and armour could add a lot to them.

At that point, we're not talking about "optimization" in the sense that I used the word.

But, back to Bharring:

What list can he possibly think of that:

1. Won't suck against an optimized, non-competitive list

2. Will not be OP compared to an optimized, non-competitive list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not optimized because it has devastators in it.

IF devastators are great. Have you read what imperial fists chapter tactics do?

"IF devastators are great. Have you read what imperial fists chapter tactics do?"

They're still trash, because they are still meqs with heavy weapons. The IF chapter tactic does not help you take down MCs. I'm still gonna frag them off the table before they can hurt me badly. And I'm using a weak army. Also, killing vehicles isn't hard anyway, so it's not a very good chapter tactic, imo.

Those aren't set levels.

Optimized non-Tournament lists in my meta would be absolutely destroyed in Martel's.

However, if the list above is too weak, and other lists are too strong, it seems trivial to assume that a middle ground could be hit.

Bharring wrote:However, if the list above is too weak, and other lists are too strong, it seems trivial to assume that a middle ground could be hit.

Like what?

I'm running devastators. Are you going to use dark reapers to provide a fair matchup? Sounds like a good idea, right? Except for the fact that the dark reapers are going to be more effective, have better special rules, have the same range and cost fewer points per model.

I'm running tactical squads with heavy weapons. So you'll run 6 windrider units, each of which has a single scatter laser. Sounds like a good match-up on paper, right? Except I'm paying 85 points per squad, and you're paying 61 points per squad.

I'm running sternguard, so you'll run fire dragons in a wave serpent and a unit of wraithguard in wave serpent.

Except you'll have a marked advantage against AV, and wave serpents are still pretty darned good even in 7th edition.

I'm running assault marines in rhinos. So, you'll run warp spiders.

I mean, I could keep going. If you don't intentionally take a garbage list, and if you try to make a list that actually "matches" mine, what you are going to end up with, simply because you are using the Eldar codex, is a list that's much more effective and points efficient than mine.

I offer a serious challenge. Make a list that has a 50/50 chance of beating the missile launcher spam list.

You won't be able to.

What you are going to end up with is a list that either stomps it, or else, gets stomped by it. You won't find a middle ground.

From what I can see, the only trouble the eldar list

Would have vs your gladius list is in objective based games where you can easily outscore or contest everything while the "heavy" hitters take a couple turns to kill of everything that's in a transport, but is overall isn't worried about your damage output too much, especially if wraith blades with axes help screen the guard/banshees so they can get close. As for the Tsons list, you have plenty of wasted points with VotlW, raptors in general, and cultists with mid-to-close range weapons, and a heavy stubber (which is about as useful as an ork's shoota) and a shotgun. As for your damage output, it's pretty low overall, and after the havocs get killed, you lose most of your hitting power.

Also, ASM =/= warp spiders. Banshees or Scorpions sure. And Sternguard =/= wraithguard or fire dragons, maybe dire avengers, but eldar don't have a great analogue for sternguard.

Wolfblade wrote:Would have vs your gladius list is in objective based games where you can easily outscore or contest everything while the "heavy" hitters take a couple turns to kill of everything that's in a transport, but is overall isn't worried about your damage output too much, especially if wraith blades with axes help screen the guard/banshees so they can get close.

I may simply not be understanding how the units are supposed to operate, but what I'm seeing in that list is a bunch of foot-sloggers with a few AV heavy weapons platforms.

Against that list, I'm building a rhino wall in the middle of the map, shooting missiles at the things that can get close to my gunline the fastest and using special ammo against any infantry that get too close.

And the list wouldn't have either the numbers to really soak the damage, or else, the fire power to make me really worry.

As for the Tsons list, you have plenty of wasted points with VotlW, raptors in general, and cultists with mid-to-close range weapons, and a heavy stubber (which is about as useful as an ork's shoota) and a shotgun. As for your damage output, it's pretty low overall, and after the havocs get killed, you lose most of your hitting power.

Vs. infantry, the heavy hitters are Ahriman and the ML3 sorcerers. Psychic shriek spam, yo.

If I win the roll for first turn and score a roll of 2 on the d3 for Ahriman's WL trait, that's a unit of chosen, in a rhino, with ahriman infiltrating turn 1. 3 psychic shrieks turn 1, and that's just from Ahriman.

Traditio, think about how your games might go against the lists I posted. Then realize BA are one of the worst lists in the game.

If his CF force sits back, I think they win fairly easily.

If the CWE screens with Wraith blades, he's moving forward about 10in a turn. So the Sternies at least 2 turns of shooting in, probably 4. Half at rapid fire range. That's more than enough to kill tbem.

Meanwhile, from 48" away, the Devs toast either the Wraithlord or the Wraithguard fairly easily before either gets in range to do much. Which one depends on how fast they move up.

Once a target is down, they switch to the Wraithguard, which if they're being screened, are plenty far away. They fall down dead to Krak missiles quickly. Either Hellfire or Vengeance rounds won't make them happy.

The other sternie squad can support either target.

The 6 Tac squads put a few shots into each tank until it either jinks or goes boom. The Vyper is next. Any remainder helps clean up the Wraith units.

The CWE long range firepower will kill probably 5 Marines a turn if you don't get great cover. Less, likely.

The ASMS do need to worry about the Banshees. But you're holding back. So that doesn't matter until later in the game. Even the handful of storm bolters will put pressure on squads like Banshees and Storm Guardians, though. And, when they get close is, one Tac squad just lights them up.

Hawks are annoying, but can't do much damage. When the real that's are dead, you'll have the firepower to waste on them. That, or just engage them with Boltguns.

Shining Spears might eat a squad, but you can force them at Tacs. Then kill them. They are T4 3+, 3 models for about 100 points. Windriders will be annoying, but can't do enough damage to matter. They'll hold something while you deal with the bigger threats, b7t won't really do anything.
This mostly leaves just a pair of incoming Krak missiles, up to 4 snapfiring Lascannon equivelents if CWE is lucky, and 10 Sniper shots. The remaining Eldar, after you blunt their spear, just wait for you to mop them up. And between Bolt guns, and if need be, Assaults, nothing survives much.

If anything, a Maelstrom game where you're forced to move up to them prematurely is CWE's best chance.

Bharring, so you think my BA lists can overrun that CWE list?

Martel732 wrote:
Bharring, so you think my BA lists can overrun that CWE list?

I think that BA would have a harder time of it. The CWE list he proposed is full of foot-slogging, relatively slow-moving infantry supported by a small number of easily-poppable tanks.

Against my list, that would be like shooting fish in a barrel, because all I have to do, in typical Imperial Fist fashion, is castle up and hold the line.

Against BA, it would be tougher, because your list works at really short range. You actually have to close in.

You'd still easily stomp that list, but you'd take more casualties.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Bharring, so you think my BA lists can overrun that CWE list?

I think that BA would have a harder time of it. The CWE list he proposed is full of foot-slogging, relatively slow-moving infantry supported by a small number of easily-poppable tanks.

Against my list, that would be like shooting fish in a barrel, because all I have to do, in typical Imperial Fist fashion, is castle up and hold the line.

Against BA, it would be tougher, because your list works at really short range. You actually have to close in.

You'd still easily stomp that list, but you'd take more casualties.

How about the BA lists vs your list?