Can you play eldar, without being pure cheese?

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**Bharring**

If someone is fielding a 110 point Serpent, they're cheating.

If you're unhappy that a generalist squad (Marines) get edged out at the role by a very focused and specialized squad (Aspect Warriors), while winningetting handily at every other role, perhaps you shouldn't play generalists? Why is it fair for a generalist to be as good or better at a specialization than a specialist? I still think Reapers are better, but not nearly as much better as you think. How they perform on the table beyond their role is indeed important.

(Also, doesn't that ammo runt option give twinlinking? I'll never field one, but it exists...).

Also, no Autarch in that list...

**Martel732**

At the end of the day, reapers are using missile launchers. Can't hurt 2+ armor, nor the problem MCs in the game, except WKs. They are also very unreliable against AV 13/14. Not a power weapon at all.

**Wolfblade**

Traditio wrote:

Would you prefer a 110 point predator, appropriately geared out, or a 110 point wave serpent?

The predator is better armed than the wave serpent (again, barring the one shot shield, in which case they're about even).

Plus, a tri-las pred has 48" range, and better mobility than dark reapers, and is 5pt cheaper than the wave serpents I put in my list! (and will probably kill one or two before the waves get in range, each pred dealing 1.17 HP or so to a wave, not counting any damage pens may or may not do)

edit: Whoops, list is over by 7 points, so drop the exarch's weapon on the banshees and its good.

**Martel732**

I'd still rather have the serpent because of superior side armor. And fast vehicle status.

**tneva82**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
IMO, a Guardian-based horde is anti-fluff.

"Every Eldar is trained and ready to fight if need be and the Guardians are the Craftworld's most numerous body of fighting troops".

Doubtful the most numerous body is just sitting and drinking eldar tea.

**Traditio**

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still rather have the serpent because of superior side armor. And fast vehicle status.

Not to mention the ability to jink. And the ability to degrade pens to glances.

My challenge remains:

No psykers. No dark reapers. No wraithknights. No formations. No bikes. No wave serpents. No wraithguard.

Make a list that will beat mine.

Hint: It can't be done.

**Bharring**

But wouldn't 3 Lascannon shots do a lot more than 3 S6 Pseudo rending shots at 24"?

**Martel732**

Bharring wrote:
But wouldn't 3 Lascannon shots do a lot more than 3 S6 Pseudo rending shots at 24"?

I don't count on Imperial heavy weapons to do anything. Ever. You can tell that from my lists. The predator is doing nothing if it's constantly being shaken on the side armor.

**tneva82**

Hey wait a sec. First in thread we have guy claiming entire codex is pile of OP gak. Can't even play non cheese army if you use eldar.

Then suddenly put in some restrictions and you can't beat same guys army aparantely...

...So wait a sec. If it's impossible to not build cheesy army from codex how same codex cannot create army that beat his army if certain restrictions are put in?

...So totally broken OP army(since you cannot make non-cheesy army from codex) cannot beat his army...So it's actually his SM that are truly horribly broken OP piece of junk that needs nerfing because OP army cannot beat his army!

**Martel732**

Traditio wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I'd still rather have the serpent because of superior side armor. And fast vehicle status.

Not to mention the ability to jink. And the ability to degrade pens to glances.

My challenge remains:

No psykers. No dark reapers. No wraithknights. No formations. No bikes. No wave serpents. No wraithguard.

Make a list that will beat mine.

Hint: It can't be done.

It can still be done. Your list isn't very good. Devastators are awful. I can shoot all your devastators to death with war walkers and wraith lords and falcons. Then you die.

**Bharring**

I was aiming for showing non-cheese. Your challenge is trivial.

Spam Starcannons. Warwalkers, then Vypers.

You'd get destroyed.

But it's getting harder to make a *fun* list, with you demanding that I can't field Warlocks or Shining Spears or such.

**Martel732**

I forgot about Vypers.

**Wolfblade**

Traditio wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I'd still rather have the serpent because of superior side armor. And fast vehicle status.

Not to mention the ability to jink. And the ability to degrade pens to glances.

My challenge remains:

No psykers. No dark reapers. No wraithknights. No formations. No bikes. No wave serpents. No wraithguard.

Make a list that will beat mine.

Hint: It can't be done.

Only if you don't get to use transports, as you're banning the eldar transport. Otherwise no, as now you're adding stupid restrictions for no reason other than to keep moving the goal posts so you're not "wrong". Reapers, Farseers, and Wave Serpents aren't nearly as broken as you think. But yeah as Bharring said, spam starcannons. (I however fully expect you to ignore this post, as you tend to do when people start proving you wrong), just like how you start putting up random restrictions.

**Bharring**

A Wraithlord actually loses a firefight with Devs. Even with Starcannons.

The Falcon can go either way, but would need to be kitted for it and have a strong terrain advantage. Warwalkers, though, I think mop them up.

Not that Devs are good. But that isn't what those options do.

**Martel732**

Bharring wrote:
A Wraithlord actually loses a firefight with Devs. Even with Starcannons.

The Falcon can go either way, but would need to be kitted for it and have a strong terrain advantage. Warwalkers, though, I think mop them up.

Not that Devs are good. But that isn't what those options do.

It's not a vacuum. It's the wraithlord, war walkers, and falcon working together as the rest of the marine list watches helplessly.

**Bharring**

And the Wraithlord walking up to your podded Tacs and eating them.

Or preventing your ASM from touching the Dark Reapers or War Walkers that are tearing them up. Or whatever

Basically, just doing the things a Dread does.

**Martel732**

Bharring wrote:
And the Wraithlord walking up to your podded Tacs and eating them.

Or preventing your ASM from touching the Dark Reapers or War Walkers that are tearing them up. Or whatever

Basically, just doing the things a Dread does.

Exactly.

**pm713**

Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:Also can't overwatch, can't run and die incredibly fast in cc considering they can cost over 30ppm.

Pointing these things out is simply disingenuous, since these things are not likely to come up very often. So what if your dark reapers can't overwatch? They fire at 48 inch range. So what if they can't run? They have 48 inch range and slow and purposeful. So what if they are bad at CC? They have 48 inch range, and if your opponent is deepstriking or drop-podding something in specifically to kill them in close combat, my devastator marines won't do much better than your dark reapers.

25 ppm simply does not properly assess their actual in-game utility. Especially vs. MEQs.

Your dev can overwatch, run to reposition better, fight off some cc attackers, fight vehicles, can take spare wounds, can give a model bs5 and twin linked for a turn. Before you point out an exarch has bs5 I'll point out the exarch costs more than a terminator.

You're mistaken about the twin-linked thing. If you have an SM opponent who uses the signum to twin-link one of his heavy weapons, he's either misinformed or cheating. Signum only boosts the shooting to BS 5. If he's getting re-rolls to hit, he's either using Ultramarines chapter tactics or a librarian (or both).

At any rate, the rest of what you said is simply irrelevant if we are attending solely to intended combat roles. My devs can overwatch, but so what? If they're getting assaulted, it's over for them. If they're running, they're not shooting. And if they're even moving normally to reposition themselves, they're snapshooting.

Do you realize how busted my devastator squads would be if they had slow and purposeful?

And you also fail to note how your autarch has AP 3 barrage blasts.

The "OP" Wave Serpent costs over a hundred points. You know why it has good firepower? It's priced almost as much as the actual battle tanks. It's like saying Rhino's are way undercosted for a transport. A Rhino is cheap because it lacks power. A Wave Serpent has high cost because it does not.

Would you prefer a 110 point predator, appropriately geared out, or a 110 point wave serpent?

You need to learn your rules my friend. SM have the armourium cherub do they not?

If you can't get anything at all to my back line I suggest you look at other options in your book. Tyranids can do it.

That's simply not true.You could charge my reapers with tactical marines and have an ok chance of taking them out.

My autarch has no such thing. My exarch can get one which again removes most of the accuracy with scatter and you realise that's 60 points for an easy to kill model?

I'll take either of those things. Predators have nice range.

**Martel732**

But preds have crap durability.

**pm713**

Martel732 wrote:
But preds have crap durability.

It's at my board edge surrounded by infantry. I can live with it.

**Martel732**

pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
But preds have crap durability.

It's at my board edge surrounded by infantry. I can live with it.

But now you are paying for infantry to babysit three Imperial heavy weapon shots. That's the definition of bad. What's a predator even going to kill on a 7th ed battlefield? Opposing Rhinos? Okay.

**pm713**

Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
But preds have crap durability.

It's at my board edge surrounded by infantry. I can live with it.

But now you are paying for infantry to babysit three Imperial heavy weapon shots. That's the definition of bad.

I had the Infantry already? Nobody is going to take an army of just Predators.

**Martel732**

pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
But preds have crap durability.

It's at my board edge surrounded by infantry. I can live with it.

But now you are paying for infantry to babysit three Imperial heavy weapon shots. That's the definition of bad.

I had the Infantry already? Nobody is going to take an army of just Predators.

I guess my philosophy is that marines should be mid-field or in the enemy deployment zone. Not in the rear with the gear. BA infantry is pushing to heavy flamer range, vanilla infantry to grav cannon range.

**Xenomancers**

I think what it comes down to is bladestorm in general is to strong of an ability. Considering vehicals are mostly useless in this edition - your standard soldier having the ability to wound anything relevant on a 6 and give it no armor save is outrageously OP.

**pm713**

Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
But preds have crap durability.

It's at my board edge surrounded by infantry. I can live with it.

But now you are paying for infantry to babysit three Imperial heavy weapon shots. That's the definition of bad.

I had the Infantry already? Nobody is going to take an army of just Predators.

I guess my philosophy is that marines should be mid-field or in the enemy deployment zone. Not in the rear with the gear. BA infantry is pushing to heavy flamer range, vanilla infantry to grav cannon range.

That's fair enough.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
I think what it comes down to is bladestorm in general is to strong of an ability. Considering vehicals are mostly useless in this edition - your standard soldier having the ability to wound anything relevant on a 6 and give it no armor save is outrageously OP.

That seems an exaggeration of it's power. My experience has been that 6's don't make a significant difference barring incredible luck and if we count luck it all goes out the window.

**Wolfblade**

Xenomancers wrote:
I think what it comes down to is bladestorm in general is to strong of an ability. Considering vehicals are mostly useless in this edition - your standard soldier having the ability to wound anything relevant on a 6 and give it no armor save is outrageously OP.

~~Bladestorm only gives AP2, it's not rending.~~] Nevermind, misremembered the rule, my bad

**Martel732**

Wolfblade wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I think what it comes down to is bladestorm in general is to strong of an ability. Considering vehicals are mostly useless in this edition - your standard soldier having the ability to wound anything relevant on a 6 and give it no armor save is outrageously OP.

Bladestorm only gives AP2, it's not rending.

And auto-wound on a six.

**Wolfblade**

Martel732 wrote:
Wolfblade wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I think what it comes down to is bladestorm in general is to strong of an ability. Considering vehicals are mostly useless in this edition - your standard soldier having the ability to wound anything relevant on a 6 and give it no armor save is outrageously OP.

Bladestorm only gives AP2, it's not rending.

And auto-wound on a six.

Yeah, misremembered the rule.

**Bharring**

It seems like Preds synergies more with Guardians and Rangers, and Serpents synergies more with Marines...

**Martel732**

Bladestorm pays off huge against the most powerful units in the game: DK, WK, Riptide, Stormsurge. And it is insult to injury vs 2+ armor infantry that was already worthless because the ion accelerator exists.