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Yeah, I'd like to see something set Bladestorm apart from Rending. Fluffwise, it really should just be Shred AP4, since it literally shreds you

Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.

pm713 wrote:
Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.

Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game. Bladestorm is especially gruesome for DK. It's one of the reasons the GK are middleish-lower tier.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.

Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.

Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?

Martel732 wrote:
Bladestorm pays off huge against the most powerful units in the game: DK, WK, Riptide, Stormsurge. And it is insult to injury vs 2+ armor infantry that was already worthless because the ion accelerator exists.

And yet is far less useful against things like dark eldar, most orks, guard, etc. Which is kind of interesting. It actively discourages some of the more problematic units (though not by enough) while not having much effect at all on many of the weaker units. Though I'm afraid I've failed to follow how this relates to the current line of conversation.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.

Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.

Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?

Given how hard it is to hurt these things, a couple of wounds is a ton to me. Your infantry squads are generating around 2.16 AP 2 auto-wounds vs 2.22 AP 2 wounds from a lascannon dev team. Neither of them ignore FNP on T6 models.

Oddly that makes it sound a bit like Grav. Good against things like Riptides bad against things like Orks.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Bladestorm pays off huge against the most powerful units in the game: DK, WK, Riptide, Stormsurge. And it is insult to injury vs 2+ armor infantry that was already worthless because the ion accelerator exists.

And yet is far less useful against things like dark eldar, most orks, guard, etc. Which is kind of interesting. It actively discourages some of the more problematic units (though not by enough) while not having much effect at all on many of the weaker units. Though I'm afraid I've failed to follow how this relates to the current line of conversation.

Someone brought it up.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.

Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.

Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?

Given how hard it is to hurt these things, a couple of wounds is a ton to me. Your infantry squads are generating around 2.16 AP 2 auto-wounds vs 2.22 AP 2 wounds from a lascannon dev team. Neither of them ignore FNP on T6 models.

What kind of unit size are you using to work that out?

Generating free AP 2 wounds is never "bad". Shooting grav at boyz is indeed bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.

Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.

Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?

Given how hard it is to hurt these things, a couple of wounds is a ton to me. Your infantry squads are generating around 2.16 AP 2 auto-wounds vs 2.22 AP 2 wounds from a lascannon dev team. Neither of them ignore FNP on T6 models.

What kind of unit size are you using to work that out?

10 DA.

Martel732 wrote:
Generating free AP 2 wounds is never "bad". Shooting grav at boyz is indeed bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.

Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.

Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?

Given how hard it is to hurt these things, a couple of wounds is a ton to me. Your infantry squads are generating around 2.16 AP 2 auto-wounds vs 2.22 AP 2 wounds from a lascannon dev team. Neither of them ignore FNP on T6 models.

What kind of unit size are you using to work that out?

10 DA.

You understand the point that its less effective against things like Orks similar to Grav though.

It seems unlikely that the 10 DA will get that close to those units without taking a lot of damage before hand or being charged shortly after. Whereas the Lascannons can be at the other end of the board.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.

Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.

Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?

I've taken guardians to tournaments specifically to try and get lucky against problematic things like GMCs, but spamming shuriken weapons isn't something I really see competitively. D-weapons usually do it better. I've seen bike-heavy lists that trade scat lasers out for shuriken cannons to deal with GMCs though.

Martel over-exaggerates a bit though. Bladestorm is nice, but many MCs (including dread knights) can still negate a good number of pseudo-rends with cover or invul saves. GMCs have more trouble doing that as of the unofficial FAQ (no toe-in cover), but you're usually fishing for 6s against those. In a fairly realistic scenario, you'll have a 10 man squad of shuriken catapults generate about 2 rends, 1 of which will be ignored by a 4+ cover save.

For non-GMCs, I actually prefer dark eldar poison as I can force my opponents to roll a lot of dice often at greater range. Splinter wracks also make it easier to load up on hits if I'm going the raiders+warriors route, and poison wins out over bladestorm against many bike units. I'm always perplexed by the aversion people have to bladestorm. it's nice, but it's generally not a game changer. Sure, I'll occassionally get lucky and wipe a squad of terminators by virtue of rolling a ton of sixes. Sometimes gretchin wipe out terminators by virtue of those terminators rolling a bunch of 1s.

That's the mitigating factor, of course. I've discussed bladestorm with Bharring before. It think it's a bit too good, but not brokenly good. It's primarily a slap in the face for those of use who really struggle vs 2+ MCs and GMCs.

Although most GMCs/MCs can shoot those lascannon devs right off the table with no problem.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Generating free AP 2 wounds is never "bad". Shooting grav at boyz is indeed bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.

Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.

Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?

Given how hard it is to hurt these things, a couple of wounds is a ton to me. Your infantry squads are generating around 2.16 AP 2 auto-wounds vs 2.22 AP 2 wounds from a lascannon dev team. Neither of them ignore FNP on T6 models.

What kind of unit size are you using to work that out?

10 DA.

You understand the point that its less effective against things like Orks similar to Grav though.

It seems unlikely that the 10 DA will get that close to those units without taking a lot of damage before hand or being charged shortly after. Whereas the Lascannons can be at the other end of the board.

To play Slaanesh's advocate, Avengers actually have pretty decent range. 6" move, possibly adding an extra 6" from a serpent transport, 18" range, and an extra 4ish inches if you need to battle focus first. They can reach pretty far. They *are* rather susceptible to return attacks though.

Martel732 wrote:
That's the mitigating factor, of course. I've discussed bladestorm with Bharring before. It think it's a bit too good, but not brokenly good. It's primarily a slap in the face for those of use who really struggle vs 2+ MCs and GMCs.

I think that's a fair point. I disagree but I don't think it's worth us arguing back and forth considering our opinions seem somewhat similar.

But on which platforms?

The Guardian is mostly a Guardsmen with a movement shenanigan. So it pays nearly double mostly for a great shotgun.

Dire Avengers in a CAD (this is about can CWE be reasonable) do about as much to TEQ as a Plas/Combi Plas squad.

Windriders don't get it in the volumes necessary to do much.

Shuriken Cannons are mostly S6 weapons, with Bladestorm being a nice extra.

It's a very good rule, but it's not the rule that makes Eldar so hard to handle for the have-not lists.

"do about as much to TEQ as a Plas/Combi Plas squad. "

But they don't pay for the plasma. That's why it's so good. Yeah, you can't hurt vehicles, but in 7th, who cares? Something else bad will happen to the vehicle.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Most of those things have invuls so it's still not great and again it's on a six. It doesn't happen often.

Doesn't matter. Negating the 2+ is all anyone can do, and every Eldar shuriken weapon does it. Eldar have the shots to make it very worthwhile and reliable. You're getting a ton of free wounds against the toughest models in the game.

Ton is an exaggeration unless you spamming as many shuriken weapons as you can. Does anybody do that?

Were talking about can you play eldar without cheese...the answer is no. Bladestorm is standard on most non optimal units.

Martel732 wrote:
That's the mitigating factor, of course. I've discussed bladestorm with Bharring before. It think it's a bit too good, but not brokenly good. It's primarily a slap in the face for those of use who really struggle vs 2+ MCs and GMCs.

Although most GMCs/MCs can shoot those lascannon devs right off the table with no problem.

Respectfully, I find this an odd sentiment, Martel. If your biggest problem with it is that it discourages units you struggle to deal with, then shouldn't you be glad bladestorm exists?

"My marines can't deal with dreadknights. Fortunately, the presence of eldar means I see fewer dreadknights."

Wyldhunt wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's the mitigating factor, of course. I've discussed bladestorm with Bharring before. It think it's a bit too good, but not brokenly good. It's primarily a slap in the face for those of use who really struggle vs 2+ MCs and GMCs.

Although most GMCs/MCs can shoot those lascannon devs right off the table with no problem.

Respectfully, I find this an odd sentiment, Martel. If your biggest problem with it is that it discourages units you struggle to deal with, then shouldn't you be glad bladestorm exists?

"My marines can't deal with dreadknights. Fortunately, the presence of eldar means I see fewer dreadknights."

But it doesn't. People just take their chances with DKs anyway. Eldar already had D weapons to wipe up DKs, but they get this as well. Compare to CSM or Orks, who get what?

Bladestorm is even more effective vs 2+ infantry, since each wound degrades the squad's capabilities. Bladestorm makes terminators and SG even more unplayable.

I'm not sure I'd call bladestorm cheese, though. Killing almost anything from 36" is cheese.

Wow, I was behind.

I think we settled on the band of Bladestorm is between useful and a little better than it should be?

I think it could stand to be a little worse myself, but not a lot.

Bharring wrote:
Wow, I was behind.

I think we settled on the band of Bladestorm is between useful and a little better than it should be?

I think it could stand to be a little worse myself, but not a lot.

Mostly because it overpunishes units that are already suffering against the ion accelerator. It's funny. I think the ion accelerator is more BS than any single weapon the Eldar have. But the Eldar have more synergistic weapons going for them.

Is Bladestorm so good it becomes cheese? I wouldn't think so, any more than Plasma Guns are. Or Necron Gauss. Or Tau having S5 guns standard.

Thinking about it, bladestorm isn't the cheese nearly as much as the Eldar being able to remove any unit that is not vulnerable to it (vehicle) with casual ease.

Bharring wrote:
Wow, I was behind.

I think we settled on the band of Bladestorm is between useful and a little better than it should be?

I think it could stand to be a little worse myself, but not a lot.

I don't know...I think Gauss is probably in the category you are talking...but bladestorm is kinda gauss plus 1 isn't it? It loses out on vehicle targets but vs non vehicals removes all armor saves? I'd always trade generalist for specialist any day of the week!

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Wow, I was behind.

I think we settled on the band of Bladestorm is between useful and a little better than it should be?

I think it could stand to be a little worse myself, but not a lot.

I don't know...I think Gauss is probably in the category you are talking...but bladestorm is kinda gauss plus 1 isn't it? It loses out on vehicle targets but vs non vehicals removes all armor saves? I'd always trade generalist for specialist any day of the week!

Bladestorm is meta-superior because vehicles suck balls right now.

Considering the lot of us already discussed bladestorm at length previously, we should probably let this train of conversation die or at least start another thread.

That said, I rather like bladestorm as I find it fluffy and useful without being a game changer. Sort of a "critical hit" mechanic. I'd be fine with it being weaker or even going away, but I'm glad shuriken catapults got something to distinguish themselves from bolters beyond being assault.

As for terminators, chaos marines, and orks, those are all known problem units, and not just in comparison to eldar. To me, shuriken catapult toting units are largely fun and fluffy. I'd rather see stragglers elevated to a reasonable-but-effective power level before considering taking away bladestorm.

I don't think it needs to go away.

 Galef wrote:
Yeah, I'd like to see something set Bladestorm apart from Rending. Fluffwise, it really should just be Shred AP4, since it literally shreds you

I like this a lot better for blade-storm. That's what shurikens should be doing - wrecking light/med infantry like nobodies buisness.

 Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still rather have the serpent because of superior side armor. And fast vehicle status.

Not to mention the ability to jink. And the ability to degrade pens to glances.

My challenge remains:

No psykers. No dark reapers. No wraithknights. No formations. No bikes. No wave serpents. No wraithguard.

Make a list that will beat mine.

Hint: It can't be done.

Today I learned that dark reapers, spirit seers, shining spears, and even the lowly warlock are overpowered cheese. Who knew that a psyker that cannot even keep up with a space marine librarian was such an oppressive beast on the board. I would have thought that most people would think that base dark reapers were just fine given that they are good for basically nothing but killing space marines.

Oh boy and woe unto the man who has to take on walking wraithguard. Those things are a literal nightmare trotting across the board with their 12" guns. Watch aghast as they kill nearly three tactical marines in one round of fire. With their amazing 6T and 3+ save they take a whole two units of devastators shooting missiles to kill them.

Your list is lacking the mighty unkillable warp spider. A unit that is what more overpowered than most of what you listed above. So if I was going to make a list that beats yours I would just run a ton of those. Unless you want to move your goalpost again. Then probably just 200 guardians so I could hear you tell me how overpowered they were too.