Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Hordini wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I like that the audio and video recording we have is completely unreliable and doesn't tell us anything about the shooting, but what we do have are a bunch of speculations and false rumors that have been disproven which are still repeated as explanations for the event.

Such as?

Speculations mentioned so far in this thread: He had his gun out and the only reason we don't see it is because the cop has already removed it. He didn't have a permit at all. He was hostile to the cop. The recording was made to create a false narrative.
Rumors that have been disproven repeated in this thread: He was a suspect in a robbery (which has been disproven, he was initially pulled over because "he had a wide nose like a guy that they might be looking for"), the county said he didn't have a permit (the same county admits that any other county could have issued it and a source confirmed he was licensed).

What we do know and has been pretty much confirmed:

- He was pulled over because the cops wanted to check him out
- He was licensed to carry
- He was shot
- We have video footage after the shooting that shows the atmosphere and behaviors of everybody involved.

 Hordini wrote:
I'm not away of any state in which a valid CCW license ceases to be recognized when you cross a county line.

Illinois has some pretty patchwork CC laws in place because there is no primacy in that state. An issued permit "should" be allowed but if so residents of Chicago would just go to another county and get their permits instead of being held hostage by the corrupt mayor and city council.

 d-usa wrote:
My die hard conservative right absolutely pro-gun military veteran "liberals are morons" friends on Facebook are even slamming the NRA over this.

A LOT of the membership (including myself) are pissed that there is no statement regarding Philando Castile's murder even while there was an immediate response to the shootings in Dallas.

http://fusion.net/story/323189/nra-members-response-philando-castile-shooting/

I'm not ready to call the NRA leadership racist but they are certainly pro police, almost militantly so. With so many military and police as members, I suspect they don't want to be seen as throwing a brother officer under the bus before the facts are known. The problem is, this brings the NRA into collusion with those who support cops at any cost, even bad cops, as part of that thin blue line/code of silence stuff. People who support the innocent and the community understandably see this as choosing a side - the wrong side - for political reasons.

Wayne LaPierre has been tireless in support of the 2nd Amendment but I say he is completely wrong and out of touch here. I suspect this will do significant damage the NRA's image and that is unfortunate.

I wonder if or how the ethniticty of the policeman who ended the life of Philando Castile effects the dynamics of the politics of this case.

Rosebuddy wrote:

Asterios wrote:
if what you say about the department not having an officer involved shooting in 30 years, it makes one wonder why now? the cop who did the shooting was not a rookie he had been with the department for 4 years, so why? feel like we are missing something here.

The reason it happened now and not before could be anything from random chance stopping every other possible shooting through the cop having a bad day and to the growing fear among the white middle class. You're working from the assumption that it's obviously weird that a cop shot a black man and trying to come up with even the smallest complaint against the man that died to justify his death with no interest at all in the greater pattern of police violence in the US. There is no reason to suspect some conspiracy for why it happened now. It's just one of the latest in a long string of shootings.

and let me guess when the Ferguson shooting happened you were probably saying it was the cops fault, and he intentionally killed him because the guy was black? sounds racist to me.

what it comes down to now is we have no evidence of what happened, what proof do you have? and where is it? and what growing fear among the white middle class? and yes it is fundamentally wierd for cops to shoot anyone, but let us look at some of those other cop killings, where they had a pattern of issues, also you keep saying white.

now while some of this story is pure conjecture and wishful thinking there is some evidence in there:

http://bearingarms.com/jenn-j/2016/07/09/mn-officer-involved-shooting-investigation-uncovers-explosive-evidence/

like people believed the cops let him die with no life saving techniques used, that was a lie, like how The police officer is heard on the video screaming, “I told him not to reach for it, I told him to get his hand off it!!”, but then again like probably with Fergusen you are ready to convict a cop just because the suspect was black, ready to convict before the evidence is presented.

and then there is your comment about white middle class? what has that to do with the officer who shot Castile? the officer was not White.

whembly wrote:Might as well have.

But I didn't, which tells me you just want to think I said it.

Sure... but to dismiss it outright because, derp-derp, the po po didn't confirm/deny it yet?.

Did I say "dismiss outright?" I'm pretty sure I didn't and this is you putting words in my mouth again. When I say alleged, all that means is that it's unconfirmed and should be treated with a grain of salt. In this instance, we have an alleged police scanner recording given to a news stations from an anonymous source and the police department has yet to confirm its authenticity. Could the officers have pulled over Castile because he kinda fit the description of a perp from four days prior? Sure, that sounds like something cops would do and in fact, is probably what they did do. Regardless of the reason the police felt it necessary to pull the man over (whether it's because he kind of resembled a BOLO, he had a broken taillight, or just another case of DWB), the stop ended in a way it shouldn't have which is something we can all agree on at this point.

Still, you jumped down my throat over over the Snopes article even though at the top of the article is says, "WHAT'S TRUE: Police who pulled over and killed Philando Castile reported they thought he might have resembled a suspect in an armed robbery case." That information comes from the purported scanner audio (that despite your best efforts to claim I said otherwise), is most likely authentic and is being treated as such by Snopes (even though they lie all the time, apparently).

Hordini wrote:Such as?

Pretty much everything Asterios says.

 d-usa wrote:

- He was licensed to carry

what County was he licensed to carry from? so far to my knowledge that has not been proven yet. only thing proven is the county he was in he was not licensed to carry, that is all.

...weird post...

I would like something more than single news site having a "source" for the proof of permit.

But then a lot of people only needed the sheriff's tweet saying "We didn't issue one" and then ignore his other tweets "but he could've got one elsewhere" to state factually that he never had a permit ever.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I would like something more than single news site having a "source" for the proof of permit.

But then a lot of people only needed the sheriff's tweet saying "We didn't issue one" and then ignore his other tweets "but he could've got one elsewhere" to state factually that he never had a permit ever.

like I said not saying he had a permit or not, since no evidence has been brought forth to collaborate or deny it, only thing we have is that the sheriff of his county did not issue him one. and thats it.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I would like something more than single news site having a "source" for the proof of permit.

But then a lot of people only needed the sheriff's tweet saying "We didn't issue one" and then ignore his other tweets "but he could've got one elsewhere" to state factually that he never had a permit ever.

Kelly, the Attorney representing the officer, has confirmed that he had a valid permit to carry the gun.

http://www.fox9.com/news/172206334-story

“(Castile) had a permit to carry a gun,” Kelly said. “The officer did not know that at the time of the shooting, and he did not know with any certainty whether the gun was present with a permit or not a permit. Regardless of whether it was permitted or not, the actions of Mr. Castile and his failure to comply with directions from Officer Yanez was what led to this.”

Asterios wrote:

and let me guess when the Ferguson shooting happened you were probably saying it was the cops fault, and he intentionally killed him because the guy was black? sounds racist to me.

The US is built on the violent subjugation of racial minorities and black people are one group that has long been the face of violent crime. The police force came into existence to help support the ruling class against all internal groups that were harmed by capitalism. The US police has famously enforced explicitly racist policies in living memory and continues to enforce policies that are implicitly racist and continue to understand what is criminal and who commits crimes in terms that are racial. This sounds racist to you because you probably view racism as a very abstract dislike rather than anything inseparable from material forces.

Asterios wrote:
and what growing fear among the white middle class?

That their economic advantages will crumble and that demographics will shift such that they'll have to fully embrace Hispanic whites. This is why Trump has support and why he happens now instead of a decade ago.

 d-usa wrote:

Kelly, the Attorney representing the officer, has confirmed that he had a valid permit to carry the gun.

Thanks. I sincerely hope we don't get a bunch of posts from people that are directly lifted from the conservatives treehouse website after its utterly disgusting article.

Rosebuddy wrote:

Asterios wrote:

and let me guess when the Ferguson shooting happened you were probably saying it was the cops fault, and he intentionally killed him because the guy was black? sounds racist to me.

The US is built on the violent subjugation of racial minorities and black people are one group that has long been the face of violent crime. The police force came into existence to help support the ruling class against all internal groups that were harmed by capitalism. The US police has famously enforced explicitly racist policies in living memory and continues to enforce policies that are implicitly racist and continue to understand what is criminal and who commits crimes in terms that are racial. This sounds racist to you because you probably view racism as a very abstract dislike rather than anything inseparable from material forces.

Asterios wrote:
and what growing fear among the white middle class?

That their economic advantages will crumble and that demographics will shift such that they'll have to fully embrace Hispanic whites. This is why Trump has support and why he happens now instead of a decade ago.

and I repeat what has that to do with a Native American Officer shooting a suspect? furthermore where is your evidence all police departments and officers do such actions? and what about all the Black officers who killed Black people?

 d-usa wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I would like something more than single news site having a "source" for the proof of permit.

But then a lot of people only needed the sheriff's tweet saying "We didn't issue one" and then ignore his other tweets "but he could've got one elsewhere" to state factually that he never had a permit ever.

Kelly, the Attorney representing the officer, has confirmed that he had a valid permit to carry the gun.

http://www.fox9.com/news/172206334-story

“(Castile) had a permit to carry a gun,” Kelly said. “The officer did not know that at the time of the shooting, and he did not know with any certainty whether the gun was present with a permit or not a permit. Regardless of whether it was permitted or not, the actions of Mr. Castile and his failure to comply with directions from Officer Yanez was what led to this.”

well that answers that question now the question is if Castile identified he had a permit and/or gun or not.

That cops understand criminality and view the danger level of people through a racial lens, like much of the rest of society, is most certainly relevant.

Rosebuddy wrote:
That cops understand criminality and view the danger level of people through a racial lens, like much of the rest of society, is most certainly relevant.

but what about things like this?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/11/28/5-devastating-facts-black-black-crime/

where more Blacks commit more crimes against Blacks even though they are a smaller percentage of the population, where more blacks kill blacks then any other race? and so forth?

Asterios wrote:
well that answers that question now the question is if Castile identified he had a permit and/or gun or not.

No, actually it doesn't

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Asterios wrote:
well that answers that question now the question is if Castile identified he had a permit and/or gun or not.

No, actually it doesn't

how does it not answer the question if the driver had a CCW or not?

Asterios wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Asterios wrote:
well that answers that question now the question is if Castile identified he had a permit and/or gun or not.

No, actually it doesn't

how does it not answer the question if the driver had a CCW or not?

That isn't what you said.

As can clearly be read above, you said, "that question now the question is if Castile identified he had a permit and/or gun or not." All it is confirming is that he did indeed have a valid carry permit, not whether or not he told the officer about it. The officer's lawyer is claiming that he did not, because if he said otherwise he wouldn't be a very good lawyer. Castile's girlfriend is claiming he did tell the officer. So it's a lawyer's word against the victim's girlfriend.

 d-usa wrote:
I like that the audio and video recording we have is completely unreliable and doesn't tell us anything about the shooting, but what we do have are a bunch of speculations and false rumors that have been disproven which are still repeated as explanations for the event.

Ironically, false rumors and speculations perpetuated by the ever present "waiting for the facts" crowd.

Ain't that funny?

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Asterios wrote:
well that answers that question now the question is if Castile identified he had a permit and/or gun or not.

No, actually it doesn't

how does it not answer the question if the driver had a CCW or not?

That isn't what you said.

As can clearly be read above, you said, "that question now the question is if Castile identified he had a permit and/or gun or not." All it is confirming is that he did indeed have a valid carry permit, not whether or not he told the officer about it. The officer's lawyer is claiming that he did not, because if he said otherwise he wouldn't be a very good lawyer. Castile's girlfriend is claiming he did tell the officer. So it's a lawyer's word against the victim's girlfriend.

read what I said and what it was in response too this part "well that answers that question" was in reference to if he had a CCW permit, this part "now the question is if Castile identified he had a permit and/or gun or not." is now asking whether he identified having said permit or not, as in there is no definitive answer to this question now.

Asterios wrote:
read what I said and what it was in response too this part "well that answers that question" was in reference to if he had a CCW permit, this part "now the question is if Castile identified he had a permit and/or gun or not." is now asking whether he identified having said permit or not, as in there is no definitive answer to this question now.

Yeah, you're right.

Due in part to your poor grammar, I misread your statement. My apologies.

EDIT: wall of text removed.

Feth. Damn. Too slow. Thanks, Obama.

for those who say the BLM is not only for Blacks, then answer this where is the BLM when this unarmed White teen was killed just a couple weeks ago?

http://www.infowars.com/new-video-shows-white-unarmed-teen-being-killed-by-police/

http://www.teenvogue.com/story/dylan-noble-fresno-teen-shot-killed-police-video-released

but evidently some White Lives Matter signs were being waved around:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3679705/Horrific-new-video-shows-police-shooting-dead-unarmed-California-teen-19-lay-ground.html

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-video-shooting-dylan-noble-20160707-snap-story.html

not saying it was a good shoot or bad shoot, but you notice the lack of anything BLM protests about the killing or such and yet they claim they are not just about Black lives, yet the proof is evident.

in fact couldn't find anything about the BLM saying anything about this shooting.

Did you just post infowars as a source? Regardless of the message, that's hilarious.

At least it wasn't a poll though.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Did you just post infowars as a source? Regardless of the message, that's hilarious.

Someone should post some Mother Jones or Daily Kos articles to counter them, then the circle will be complete.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Did you just post infowars as a source? Regardless of the message, that's hilarious.

Yea, that's the problem with AJ. He taints everything he touches just because it's him. He's also ran with unsubstantiated material in the past which turned out not to be true so he's not exactly a paragon of journalism.

For those how don't like raw "stats", here's a visual representation on US Citizen killed by Police in 2016 so far:


EDIT: asterios... be a bit more judicious when using Breibart or InfoWars as sources... that's like using Talking Points Memos or DailyKos.

 d-usa wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
I would like something more than single news site having a "source" for the proof of permit.

But then a lot of people only needed the sheriff's tweet saying "We didn't issue one" and then ignore his other tweets "but he could've got one elsewhere" to state factually that he never had a permit ever.

Kelly, the Attorney representing the officer, has confirmed that he had a valid permit to carry the gun.

http://www.fox9.com/news/172206334-story

“(Castile) had a permit to carry a gun,” Kelly said. “The officer did not know that at the time of the shooting, and he did not know with any certainty whether the gun was present with a permit or not a permit. Regardless of whether it was permitted or not, the actions of Mr. Castile and his failure to comply with directions from Officer Yanez was what led to this.”

Short of Castile drawing his pistol and attempting to attack the cops I can't think of any type of noncompliance that he could do while sitting in a parked car that would justify officer Yanez shooting him.

 whembly wrote:
For those how don't like raw "stats", here's a visual representation on US Citizen killed by Police in 2016 so far:

Spoiler:

EDIT: asterios... be a bit more judicious when using Breibart or InfoWars as sources... that's like using Talking Points Memos or DailyKos.

my post was not about Cops killing Blacks, but about Blacks killing blacks which they have killed many more blacks then anyone combined and yet the Black Lives matter don't seem to care about that.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Did you just post infowars as a source? Regardless of the message, that's hilarious.

I just clicked the links didn't pay attention to the source, but still its on a lot more sources then just that one site, and I repeat where are the Black Lives Matter protesters since they say they are for all races being killed by the cops? rather absent on that so maybe there is some truth the "only" Black Lives Matter as suggested by many maybe?


As it goes I understand that there are some cops who take things to extreme, but they are not the only factor to consider, in other words they are not the core factor, there are bigger issues in this country and no one thing will fix them all.