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 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
@ Azrael(whatever). Yep, no probs with that first point, I am a bit squiffy at the moment so my share market is a bit off. However, how do you rebuke my argument with 'Profit!' when I said shareholders like dividends? Where do you think they come from? Fairy dust?

Erm..

What are dividends made of? Profits!

Perhaps have a coffee and then read my post again?

Yeah, don't bother with the GW tools and such. Some of the paints are fine but shop around a bit and you'll find better and cheaper tools in most cases. I really manage to get away with just using some, admittedly pretty nice, brushes I got for something like $6-8 at some random chinese dollar store.

Just need to have a good look at them to make sure they look decent and will work for what you need them for. So not stuff like brushes suited for water colours only or tougher bristles.

Glues, I haven't touched GW stuff for years as it seemed like watered down crap. It might be better now but I'm not going back from this to check it out.


Basing kits and stuff like that don't ever worry about except for maybe flocks and tufts you can get much, much cheaper from elsewhere.

GW wants about $25 here for 200, while I made an order with a seller on ebay who just does this stuff (gamer's grass or something like that) for the same I'm getting ~300 each of two different colours I was after. Flock and such check out any modelling stores if you have any nearby.

GW with its tools are kind of like apple where the price is marked up by the brand. Some of them are decent quality though, but a lot of them you'll find at least as good for a lot less.

 Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:
Hell, even Magic the Gathering is cheaper than this.

Really? Magic is like $20 bucks a week, just to play FNM. Plus the box of cards you get with each new release, 3x per year. Plus chase rares.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:
Hell, even Magic the Gathering is cheaper than this.

Really? Magic is like $20 bucks a week, just to play FNM. Plus the box of cards you get with each new release, 3x per year. Plus chase rares.

Plus if you need to be the person with the full foil decks.

 Draco wrote:
You can play even with legos or without actual 3d models.

Otherhand you can get painted used models in cheap price.

Have you actually priced the minifigs and bricks that would be required? Lego is not cheap at all.

Buying used is the best way to bring the price down.

Kilkrazy wrote:

 Whittlesey40k wrote:
I've ranted about GW prices before, but to be fair they're not that bad. You can't compare detailed multi-part minis to GI Joe. What gets me is the entry cost and the inconsistency. You and your buddy want to start 'hammering? You'll need the rules, and a codex each. That'll be £120 (not sure about dollars). That's a hell of an investment before even buying minis. Then the inconsistency - 10 tac marines are £25, so 5 assault marines are £12.50. Right? Wait, they have jump packs, so add £1 each. That's £17.50. Right? Nope, GW want £25 again. WTF? There's examples like that all over the place.

Oh, and if GW allow distributors to sell at up to 20% off, why don't they do that? They can obviously afford to sell at 20% off but decide to screw the people who show their local GW store some loyalty!!

You can compare detailed multi-part miniatures from GW to detailed multi-part miniatures from several other companies such as Perry Bros or Warlord.

When you do this it comes down to the fact that American Civil War infantry, Vikings, and Napoleonic Hussars did not adorn themselves with tentacles and mounds of skulls.

If you want a model with tentacles and skulls all over it, you will have to buy a GW model and accept whatever price GW sets.

Alternatively you can save 90% of the cost by not buying GW and buying a historical game instead.

Really? I don't know about historicals. Are you seriously saying that 10 historical figures is only £2.50 (i.e 10% the cost of a Tac squad). If so, sign me up!!

SolarCross wrote:Finally you can play 40k with paper cut outs mounted on cardboard if you really want to save money.

In the original Rogue Trader rules, there were tokens in the back to cut out and use to represent all the marines and orks you need to play Battle at the Farm.

I've always wanted to do a true gaming club for my area, where I get a group together and we all put in the money to purchase a set of "club" armies at maybe 500pts, and all the needed codices. Then, as people join, we add, maybe charge 5 bucks a month to come in and use our stuff. It would be a good way for everyone to afford to play these games. The reality of the expense and advert for such a thing though has caused me to never have it happen.

Another thing to consider is what else would you spend your money on if you weren't spending it on wargaming (GW or other game)?

Beer? £3 per pint, 4 pints a night + taxi home = £20 minimum for a few hours. All, literally, pissed away to boot.

Motocross? £3000+ for the bike, £300 for the leathers and helmet, + extas for maintenance, insurance etc...

Video games? £300 to 1000 for the platform, £20 to £40 per game. Do it all over again in a few years when a new gee-whizz system comes out.

Cinema? £10 per seat, £5 to £10 for snacks per person, for less than a couple of hours of enjoyment.

Golf? £1000 to £10,000 for kit, £10 to £100 per play.

Music concert? £20 to £60 per ticket + travel expenses, for a few hours of enjoyment.

You can go nuts and spend a fortune on wargaming (forgeworld, limited edition codices) but it can certainly be cheaper than other recreational activities too if you shop around and get crafty.

Gym membership for £200-700 a year.
Fun for an hour every day and a life time of health benefits.

 Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:
My local games store owner tried to justify Game's workshop's business model, saying how there are certain models that have to be expensive in order to balance the game and not have everyone with really over powered units.

Either you've misunderstood, or he's confused.

It's not about limiting what everyone has, it's about how many of a given unit they can expect to sell. Character models are priced higher than equivalent-sized troop models because you generally won't buy as many of them... While you need multiple units of troops in your army, most players will only buy a single leader model.

GW's models have been priced that way since at least the early '90s.

And on top of all that, my friends now have to buy the citadel paint sets and brushes for yet again another $30 - $40.

No, they don't. There are plenty of cheaper alternatives out there for paint and brushes.

The reality is that a small plastic squad of 10 Space Marines should only have to cost $10 - $20, and then Tanks such as Rhino cost $25 - $35

The reality is that GW are free to price their product however they please. If you're not prepared to pay those prices, there are alternatives - buying second hand, using alternate (cheaper) models, buying through discounters... Or, of course, just buying what you can afford to start with and building up slowly as you can afford it. You don't actually have to buy an entire army all at once.

How is this any different from buying a plastic toy G.I. Joe tank at ToysRUs for $30? Or any sized action figure for $15 compared to a $90 Wraithlord? Companies like Matel and Hasbro sell toys around those price ranges and they seem to be holding pretty well.

Companies like Mattel and Hasbro benefit from economy of scale - that $30 GI Joe tank will sell exponentially more copies than a Space Marine predator, and so can be priced lower as a result. And as the large toy companies have such massive infrastructure, their production costs are also lower.

If my argument is flawed on how GW is practically keeping newcomers out with their expensive hobby, please point me out on details I got and enlighten me.

The thing is, you could make the same argument about just about anything. And while it's true that higher prices potentially keep some players out of the game, it's only part of the story. The other part is that GW, as a company, have to build a business strategy around what they think will make them the most money. The trick is finding the pricing point that balances out revenue against the effort required to get that revenue... If they can sell 10 models for a dollar each, or one model for $10, then (at least on paper) they're better off selling the one model than the ten as it takes less effort... and therefore less expense.

Ultimately, while it can be disappointing when you can't afford something that you want... that's life. You either wait for it until you can afford it, or you buy something else instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:
But isn't all just with the use of plastic and a mold to produce these models? So how is it any different for if china lets say were to do it?

The difference is that it's considerably cheaper to manufacture in China than in the UK, due to lower wages and lower overheads.

 Whittlesey40k wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

 Whittlesey40k wrote:
I've ranted about GW prices before, but to be fair they're not that bad. You can't compare detailed multi-part minis to GI Joe. What gets me is the entry cost and the inconsistency. You and your buddy want to start 'hammering? You'll need the rules, and a codex each. That'll be £120 (not sure about dollars). That's a hell of an investment before even buying minis. Then the inconsistency - 10 tac marines are £25, so 5 assault marines are £12.50. Right? Wait, they have jump packs, so add £1 each. That's £17.50. Right? Nope, GW want £25 again. WTF? There's examples like that all over the place.

Oh, and if GW allow distributors to sell at up to 20% off, why don't they do that? They can obviously afford to sell at 20% off but decide to screw the people who show their local GW store some loyalty!!

You can compare detailed multi-part miniatures from GW to detailed multi-part miniatures from several other companies such as Perry Bros or Warlord.

When you do this it comes down to the fact that American Civil War infantry, Vikings, and Napoleonic Hussars did not adorn themselves with tentacles and mounds of skulls.

If you want a model with tentacles and skulls all over it, you will have to buy a GW model and accept whatever price GW sets.

Alternatively you can save 90% of the cost by not buying GW and buying a historical game instead.

Really? I don't know about historicals. Are you seriously saying that 10 historical figures is only £2.50 (i.e 10% the cost of a Tac squad). If so, sign me up!!

SolarCross wrote:Finally you can play 40k with paper cut outs mounted on cardboard if you really want to save money.

In the original Rogue Trader rules, there were tokens in the back to cut out and use to represent all the marines and orks you need to play Battle at the Farm.

Typical price for 28mm plastic historical models is about 50p for a figure.

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=1655

Some are less, some are more. The rules also are cheaper.

What about comparing warhammer to yachting? I know my yacht ran well into the 8 figure range, so in comparison, warhammer is practically pocket change.

Alternatively, compared to a sport like soccer or running, it can be as cheap as the cost of a dirt cheap pair of second hand runners and/or a dirt cheap ball. Less than $10 can get you hours daily of fun! Warhammer would be infinitely more expensive. Or how about the hobby of writing? Pen and paper, good to go. Less than a dollar.

Point is, comparisons to other hobbies isn't relevant when the issue at hand is that this one particular game in a hobby is overpriced. Comparisons to other wargames are more appropriate.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:
Hell, even Magic the Gathering is cheaper than this.

Really? Magic is like $20 bucks a week, just to play FNM. Plus the box of cards you get with each new release, 3x per year. Plus chase rares.

I've been playing Magic for at least 5 or 6 years now... and so far it's cost me around $30, for a pre-built deck.

 HCMistborn wrote:
I've always wanted to do a true gaming club for my area, where I get a group together and we all put in the money to purchase a set of "club" armies at maybe 500pts, and all the needed codices. Then, as people join, we add, maybe charge 5 bucks a month to come in and use our stuff. It would be a good way for everyone to afford to play these games. The reality of the expense and advert for such a thing though has caused me to never have it happen.

The club expense should be to cover gaming tables, shared terrain, and a single GW starter game for the 2 basic "house" armies.. That's still quite a fair chunk of change, and you'll need labor to build the tables, get the terrain together, etc. I doubt $5/mos covers it.

Buying armies and codices for people to play with is a terrible idea, as they won't take care of them. They'll get broken and stolen and stuff. Instead, simply play smaller games of 500, 750, 1000 pts. With bigger battles as 2v2 or even 3v3, per Magic 2-headed giant / General..

Also, this presumes you are gaming out of someone's garage / basement. Having to rent space gets expensive in a hurry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:
Hell, even Magic the Gathering is cheaper than this.

Really? Magic is like $20 bucks a week, just to play FNM. Plus the box of cards you get with each new release, 3x per year. Plus chase rares.

I've been playing Magic for at least 5 or 6 years now... and so far it's cost me around $30, for a pre-built deck.

Fair enough, and good on you for being the exception to how most people play Magic.

 insaniak wrote:


Ultimately, while it can be disappointing when you can't afford something that you want... that's life. You either wait for it until you can afford it, or you buy something else instead.

Exactly this. We aren't talking about a loaf of bread here.

 HCMistborn wrote:
I've always wanted to do a true gaming club for my area, where I get a group together and we all put in the money to purchase a set of "club" armies at maybe 500pts, and all the needed codices. Then, as people join, we add, maybe charge 5 bucks a month to come in and use our stuff. It would be a good way for everyone to afford to play these games. The reality of the expense and advert for such a thing though has caused me to never have it happen.

I thought about doing something similar though in a bit more of a commercial manner. I am planning on opening a LGS with wargaming tables (yeah ok I'm crazy), so I thought the store could have some painted up ready to play armies that the punters can rent for a game. Would suit newbies who are interested enough to try it but not yet commited enough to shell out the time and money on their own army. Might also suit veterans who want to try out a different force than the one(s) they already have.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Fair enough, and good on you for being the exception to how most people play Magic.

I would guess that 'most' people who play Magic play pretty much the same way I do. There are (supposedly) more then 10 million MtG players out there... and only a tiny proportion of those are registered for DCI.


It's easy to look at all of the 'visible' people playing a game, and assume that they represent the majority. In reality, most games have a much higher base of people playing casually at home than they do playing in stores or tournaments.



Which is important when you're looking at the cost of playing said game, as in general if you're not playing competitively, there's not actually any particular need to keep up with new releases, or build your collection at any particular rate... You can just buy enough to get started, and go from there as you can afford it. I started playing 40K with the second edition starter set... and for the first few years, the bulk of the additions to my collection came from scratchbuilds, and from an Oz mailorder store selling out their last stocks of the Space Crusade boardgame for $5 a copy.


What I had wasn't particularly competitive, but it got me by for quite a while until I could afford to add to it.

It's been said before (like a million times) but it's always worth a remind.

40k is not a hobby. It's a game.

"Wargaming" or "Modelling" are hobbies. 40k is just a mere game/brand among many others.

GW is certainly expensive. As I see it, too expensive for what they offer. But that's why I never buy from them directly. Most of my CSM army is made up from second-hand models I picked on eBay.

There are also many other manufacturers that offer models perfectly suited to play 40k, at a much lower price. Just have a look around and you'll find them.

If you feel you're being ripped off yet continue to pay their prices when the market is filled with cheaper alternatives, you deserve everything you may get.

@insaniak - I don't recall registering for the DCI way back when I played the most. But I was buying a box with each release to play the more competitive formats with my friends. I liked having interesting decks, and those required cards.

Had I just wanted to play Pauper magic with castoffs of commons and uncommons, that would have been a lot cheaper. But Pauper didn't even exist as a concept when I first started playing. .

Davor wrote:


People spend $1000s on drugs and that lasts what a few hours, minutes? A lot of people pay for sex. That is what 30 seconds of pleasure? Going out for dinner can be anywhere $20-$100 bucks, and you just crap it out. Same for drinking. People can put down $100-$200 at a bar and then just piss it out.

Then you have my wife, goes to bingo for what 2-3 hours and then most times looses. So who is actually spending a lot of money for their hobby? Once you buy GW you always have it.

This is probably the best response so far imo. This was somewhat enlightening!

I disagree with every person who justifies GW price gouging. I feel bad for you guys, because you are brain washed into mindless zombies to buy buy buy.

Nobody is ' justifying' GWs prices.... Because there is no need to. They're a company selling a product... They can choose to do so at whatever price they want.

I'm not a fan of their current prices... So I don't pay them.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 HCMistborn wrote:
I've always wanted to do a true gaming club for my area, where I get a group together and we all put in the money to purchase a set of "club" armies at maybe 500pts, and all the needed codices. Then, as people join, we add, maybe charge 5 bucks a month to come in and use our stuff. It would be a good way for everyone to afford to play these games. The reality of the expense and advert for such a thing though has caused me to never have it happen.

The club expense should be to cover gaming tables, shared terrain, and a single GW starter game for the 2 basic "house" armies.. That's still quite a fair chunk of change, and you'll need labor to build the tables, get the terrain together, etc. I doubt $5/mos covers it.

Buying armies and codices for people to play with is a terrible idea, as they won't take care of them. They'll get broken and stolen and stuff. Instead, simply play smaller games of 500, 750, 1000 pts. With bigger battles as 2v2 or even 3v3, per Magic 2-headed giant / General..

Also, this presumes you are gaming out of someone's garage / basement. Having to rent space gets expensive in a hurry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:
Hell, even Magic the Gathering is cheaper than this.

Really? Magic is like $20 bucks a week, just to play FNM. Plus the box of cards you get with each new release, 3x per year. Plus chase rares.

I've been playing Magic for at least 5 or 6 years now... and so far it's cost me around $30, for a pre-built deck.

Fair enough, and good on you for being the exception to how most people play Magic.

Yeah, that was just me throwing out a random number, yo. I understand the reality of running a business and all the expenses that go into it, which is why I haven't attempted it. We have one game store near us that is run by a local dude, he is a cool guy and doesn't mind letting us use the space and offers the use of terrain. His cost is a lot smaller, due to him having inherited the property in a small town that is near enough big towns to drawn in about 20 of us, but he is in no way a millionaire. I think most of dream of this, but most of us realize it's not all fun and games(haha). You're right, it would have to cost more and follow strict rules, but I think it could be possible to have small armies and club codices, with the right people, it is when you get the wrong people involved that things get stolen and broken.

 insaniak wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Fair enough, and good on you for being the exception to how most people play Magic.

I would guess that 'most' people who play Magic play pretty much the same way I do. There are (supposedly) more then 10 million MtG players out there... and only a tiny proportion of those are registered for DCI.

It's easy to look at all of the 'visible' people playing a game, and assume that they represent the majority. In reality, most games have a much higher base of people playing casually at home than they do playing in stores or tournaments.

Which is important when you're looking at the cost of playing said game, as in general if you're not playing competitively, there's not actually any particular need to keep up with new releases, or build your collection at any particular rate... You can just buy enough to get started, and go from there as you can afford it. I started playing 40K with the second edition starter set... and for the first few years, the bulk of the additions to my collection came from scratchbuilds, and from an Oz mailorder store selling out their last stocks of the Space Crusade boardgame for $5 a copy.

What I had wasn't particularly competitive, but it got me by for quite a while until I could afford to add to it.

While I agree with your points, when concerning most games, but not when dealing with MTG, at least not how it's played in the U.S.

Any, but the most casual, MTG Card Players play in weekly leagues. Those who don't play in leagues are just people who happen to own MTG cards and occasionally play with them.

I've played poker before, at home or with friends, and I own plenty of poker cards, but it doesn't make me a Poker Player.

Avid MTG players buy booster boxes upon their release and packs weekly as they play. Compared to when I played CCGs, 40K is better investment.

 adamsouza wrote:

Any, but the most casual, MTG Card Players play in weekly leagues. Those who don't play in leagues are just people who happen to own MTG cards and occasionally play with them.

For my mind, those who don't play in leagues and just own cards and play occasionally would pretty much fit the definition of 'casual player'...

In all fairness, GW, like most hobbies are luxury goods they aren't making you money (unless you are a professional painter or batrep youtuber and even then you have to be very good/funny), it does suck that they are rather expensive but so many things that we enjoy now a days are like such as things solarclub said.

 insaniak wrote:
Nobody is ' justifying' GWs prices.... Because there is no need to. They're a company selling a product... They can choose to do so at whatever price they want.

I'm not a fan of their current prices... So I don't pay them.

I definitely agree with insaniak on this. The only way GW will adjust prices is by people not buying product. We've seen their pricing bouncing all over the place as they try to find those sweet spots for maximum charging. Value factors pretty heavily into whether or not I'll buy GW products nowadays. Sometimes they're great (like Betrayal at Calth), sometimes they're fething absurd (like purchasing the individual components of Betrayal at Calth!).

With the increase in the cost of the 40k experience, I believe we'll see smaller numbers of players, and people branch out to games that require less investment. If that works for GW- if they're able to maintain their desired profits with less customers- more power to them. However, if they ever want to reach the level of penetrance they had a decade ago, I think the pricing/game will have to change dramatically.

When I was 15 I put my Warhammer stuff away and started playing rock music. That's how I learned what truly constitutes an expensive hobby. Entry price is $300 for a toy electric guitar from China or Indonesia, $1200 for a guitar that actually stays in tune long enough to play an entire song, at least $500 for an amp that's loud enough to compete with a drum kit. Then you spend $60 to $200 on gas money for each gig, very rarely getting paid $50 or so in return. Meanwhile you're paying to replace your strings and every other little thing that gets broken, lost, left behind or stolen. Some of my friends who still do this are homeless. They live on the road and have dedicated their lives entirely to their art. They travel hundreds of miles every week in order to play empty coffeehouses and empty house party basements. When I had a recording studio I would pay $800 for a single microphone and $1500 for a box that does nothing but make the microphone sound a little bit better. You also have to pay for a place where you can record and rehearse without getting a visit from the police.
When people display astonishment at how much you spend on your hobby, you have to realize that there's some cognitive dissonance at work. They don't realize that their hobbies are in fact hobbies. They think that the activities you pay money for (as opposed to getting paid) are actually important.

Several people drawing false equivalencies with other pastimes.

Sure, powerboat racing is much more expensive than GW, but then sitting in silence is considerably cheaper.

As has already been stated, the cost is irrelevant, it's the perceived value that's important, and if people aren't getting a perceived return in enjoyment from the money invested, that's when GW have a problem.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Several people drawing false equivalencies with other pastimes.

Sure, powerboat racing is much more expensive than GW, but then sitting in silence is considerably cheaper.

As has already been stated, the cost is irrelevant, it's the perceived value that's important, and if people aren't getting a perceived return in enjoyment from the money invested, that's when GW have a problem.

Well, okay but even if you look at plebian poor man's hobbies like boozing and smoking instead of something fancy like powerboat racing, it isn't all that expensive. I spend about £15 a week on rolling tobacco which is about £800 a year and that is smoking on the cheap.. If I bought a GW box at £30 every month instead it would only cost me £360 a year.

As for perceived value well that varies from one person to the next, I would like it to be cheaper even though so far I have gotten everything from ebay on the cheap, but I really love this hobby, it ticks all the boxes for me so I am not put off. YMMV as always.