GW pricing: Why my friends can't get into this hobby (rant)

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**Real News**

Azreal13 wrote:

As has already been stated, the cost is irrelevant, it's the perceived value that's important, and if people aren't getting a perceived return in enjoyment from the money invested, that's when GW have a problem.

Nobody cares what "has already been stated". You don't own the thread. I didn't even read your earlier posts, so I don't care what you said.

The cost is not "irrelevant". We're talking about it. It's what the thread is about. This is a message board where random strangers congregate to contribute their two cents. Your two cents are worth no more than anybody else's, so don't act like you're in charge of the discussion. If you choose to miss my point, that's your loss.

**Blacksails**

Clearly you missed the memo where Azreal does, in fact, own this particular thread. I'll have to put you on the dist list for all future memo's relating to thread ownership.

**Azreal13**

Real News wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:

As has already been stated, the cost is irrelevant, it's the perceived value that's important, and if people aren't getting a perceived return in enjoyment from the money invested, that's when GW have a problem.

Nobody cares what "has already been stated". You don't own the thread. I didn't even read your earlier posts, so I don't care what you said.

The cost is not "irrelevant". We're talking about it. It's what the thread is about. This is a message board where random strangers congregate to contribute their two cents. Your two cents are worth no more than anybody else's, so don't act like you're in charge of the discussion. If you choose to miss my point, that's your loss.

If I were replying directly to you, I'd have quoted you. You just happened to be the most recent, and it hadn't been me that stated that, at least not in this thread. You're right that this is a discussion, we're talking about this subject, and if you jump directly into discussions in real life with no respect for what's already been said you must really piss people off.

Cost is irrelevant, on the assumption that you have enough money to do any given activity, then it's whether the expenditure is worth what you get out of it that counts. One can be very wealthy and still see the cost of something and think "£X for that? No fething way." One's ability to pay for something is independent from one's desire to buy it.

But good job in jumping down someone's throat even when you've not read anything they may have said, as well as cropping the quote so the bit where I made it clear I was making a general point is missing so you can take it personally, good form!

**adamsouza**

People who enjoy building and painting models can get hours of enjoyment out of each model, BEFORE it ever hits a gaming table.

Spoiler:

For someone who's just looking at how much a shiny new 2000 point army will cost, as their sole consideration, GW's pricing likely seems insane.

**Davor**

Turnip Jedi wrote:
I think a lot of it comes down to perceived 'value'...

Also as others have mentioned GW is not the be all and end all of 'hobby', many other games have a much lower buy in, I'm fairly sure you could get a viable starting force in both Warmahordes or X-Wing for around the £100 mark, something you'd struggle with for 40k, same applies to paint, brushes etc, just because it's GW branded it doesn't make it magically superior, there is a whole Internet out there why not try using it.

Thing is, if you want to play GW, other games are not really an option then. Also, I wouldn't say PP is cheaper. As you say, "perceived value". For me PP minis are not worth it since I rather pay a bit more and have an easier time to put together the mini and paint it. I find I have a harder time with PP minis crap plastic and metal and take those mold lines off, GW is so much easier to do. Yes PP has some great minis, but also have some horrible minis as well. So is it really worth saving that $10-$30 a mini when I get more aggravated trying to put the dang thing together? I ruined my Thrash and spent hours trying to put it together and I still can't do it. So yeah, the savings are not worth it at all.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:
Hell, even Magic the Gathering is cheaper than this.

Really? Magic is like $20 bucks a week, just to play FNM. Plus the box of cards you get with each new release, 3x per year. Plus chase rares.

Again "perceived value" For a lot of people that is cheap and worth it. For you it might not be worth it and seem like a lot of money.

It's like going to a movie and a dinner where it can cost you a $100 a nite. You had your fun, but buying something like minis that you have to buy paint for and cut off a sprue and put together just doesn't seem worth it when there are other minis or toys already made ready to go and far cheaper.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Perceived value is one thing but at the end of the day, when you told someone you spent 35 bucks on a 2-inch tall plastic figurine that does nothing else, people will be giving you funny looks.

It's especially worse if you have a local card game scene, and I'm not just talking about MTG. Three Weeks ago I spent 32 bucks on a box of Netrunner. Between deckbuilding, playing, and looking up strategies that one box of cards has already made me sunk something like 60 hours into it.

**adamsouza**

When I played Raw Deal, I dropped about $300 every 6 months on a box of Boosters and Starters, then $5-10 every week on packs, plus 20-$50 a month on Ebay buying up rares for deck building, not to mention $50 or so on the special edition sets that came out once or twice a year. While I was playing weekly, it didn't seem all that bad. After a few years the game died out, and I'm left with thousands of dollars spent on pieces of paper, with no resale value.

**Davor**

Grief wrote:I disagree with every person who justifies GW price gouging. I feel bad for you guys, because you are brain washed into mindless zombies to buy buy buy.

Who says we are justifying GW price gouging. All we are saying is what one person finds expensive another persons doesn't. Something like one mans garbage is another treasure.

I am curious though, if you disagree where are you explanations with what you are disagreeing with? I don't see what you disagree with. So now because people have a different opinion you are resulting to name calling then eh?

Azreal13 wrote:As has already been stated, the cost is irrelevant, it's the perceived value that's important, and if people aren't getting a perceived return in enjoyment from the money invested, that's when GW have a problem.

That is so true.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Perceived value is one thing but at the end of the day, when you told someone you spent 35 bucks on a 2-inch tall plastic figurine that does nothing else, people will be giving you funny looks.

Sorry I believe you are wrong. Who cares what other people think or give us funny looks. It does come down perceived value. What I find expensive, other people find it worth it. Some people can drop $500 on one spin on roulette table and walk away when they loose. This person was just dressed like a blue collar worker, so not made of money. So what I thought was crazy, was just normal for him. Are you going to laugh at him or mock him? Do you think he will care? Just like I don't care if I buy a GW product and someone gives me a funny look. Just like I won't give someone a funny look for buying a GW product that I don't find worth it.

It all comes to what is it worth to yourself.

**MechaEmperor7000**

It's the whole "it's my money and I don't care" mentality that enables GW's price gouging. Again, people do give you funny looks for spending 35 on a 2 inch plastic figure, because it is excessively expensive. You wouldn't mock the guy for dropping 500 on a roulette table openly but you will think it was a poor choice of money. I know a guy who blows 500 a week on bullets for his shooting club (he has several really expensive guns. All legal mind you) and even he thinks my hobby is excessive (mind you, he also has no illusions about his hobby. He just thinks we both made bad choices). As my old teacher said, if you feel the need to justify it, then there's already something inherently wrong.

I personally make no attempt at hiding the fact that this is an excessively expensive hobby for me, which is why I do wish things will change. Not just so it would hurt less on my wallet, but also to get more friends playing. Currently the only reason I can't get more friends into it is cost because, again, for 32 bucks a person we can all get netrunner and play together. Or 25 bucks for Catan. If I can get a 2000 point army for even just 100 bucks, I'd get a lot more converts to this hobby.

**insaniak**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
, for 32 bucks a person we can all get netrunner and play together..

Which is great if you want to play netrunner.... And $32 down the drain if you would rather play something else.

**MechaEmperor7000**

My thought too until I actually played.

It is one hell of an addicting game.

**insaniak**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
f I can get a 2000 point army for even just 100 bucks, I'd get a lot more converts to this hobby.

You might also get more converts if you don't make them think they need a 2000point force in order to play.

$85 gets you a starter force. It's not huge, and it doesnt have all the fancy stuff... But it's enough to start playing the game.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I used 2000 points because that was how much they were actually expecting when I showed them the starter set, cuz that's all the games they hear about from me.

When I tell them the ACTUAL amount needed for a 2000 point army and try to break it down for them into 500 point chunks, that's when they run for the hills. For them it's literally seeing the future addiction laid out before their eyes. it doesn't help that most of them are MTG players, so they know how deep that rabbit hole goes.

EDIT: Also 85 (actually 100 in canada) bucks is a pretty high bar considering two of those sets are needed minimum for two people to play, and it's not always the models my friends want. One wants to do Aspect Warriors and the other one wants to run Kans and Gobbos. Compared to MTG Pauper decks, which are at most 40 per deck, and we get to choose what we want to go into it. Or just one of the other board games.

**Konrax**

For 40k the scale and breadth of options is really appealing, you wont find a game that can meet the same perks. But the game design is not bad, but a bit dated at this point.

Sure the models are good quality, but at the end of the day they are marked up at nearly the same percent as printer ink.

I dont mind paying for a quality hobby, I play other mini games, but out of all of them GW is the most expensive on an average per model basis, rules, and it multiplies significantly because of the scale.

**insaniak**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I used 2000 points because that was how much they were actually expecting when I showed them the starter set, cuz that's all the games they hear about from me.

Yes, that was my point. If you don't make them expect 2000 points to be the standard, they will be less likely to think they need 2000 points.

. Compared to MTG Pauper decks, which are at most 40 per deck, and we get to choose what we want to go into it. Or just one of the other board games.

Which, again, is irrelevant unless you're actually looking at MtG or boardgames as an alternative.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Those Alternatives are not irrelevant when they're the primary obstacles to get people into the game. Again a bare minimum 500 point playable force averages out to about 100 canadian. Whenever I try to get someone to play this, I gotta somehow justify them jumping down this rabbit hole of high expense instead of me dropping a one-time fee of about 30 bucks on something else.

So far I've only been successful twice (out of the hundred or so times I've tried). First one was because he ended up agreeing to playing with my models (and thus didn't actually need to spend money himself) and the second one was because she landed a high-paying job with excessive amounts of MONAY~! And even that didn't take; the first one couldn't make consistent trips out and didn't like how he couldn't build the army while the second one just...sorta got distracted by something else (netrunner. There's a reason I keep mentioning this).

**JohnHwangDD**

Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:
Davor wrote:
A lot of people pay for sex. That is what 30 seconds of pleasure?

Then you have my wife, goes to bingo for what 2-3 hours and then most times looses.

This is probably the best response so far imo. This was somewhat enlightening!

I read that sequence very differently from you, and didn't want to comment on it, but as you broke the ice...

Sex is a mere "30 seconds of pleasure"?

I think I understand why his wife goes out to "bingo" for 2-3 hours at a time.

**FabricatorGeneralMike**

Real News wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:

As has already been stated, the cost is irrelevant, it's the perceived value that's important, and if people aren't getting a perceived return in enjoyment from the money invested, that's when GW have a problem.

Nobody cares what "has already been stated". You don't own the thread. I didn't even read your earlier posts, so I don't care what you said.

The cost is not "irrelevant". We're talking about it. It's what the thread is about. This is a message board where random strangers congregate to contribute their two cents. Your two cents are worth no more than anybody else's, so don't act like you're in charge of the discussion. If you choose to miss my point, that's your loss.

Hi new guy, welcome to Dakka Dakka.

I remember when my father bought me my first boat, it was only the $80,000 Bayliner, I was so mad. I knew all the other guys at the country club would make fun of me, so I told my Father that he would HAVE to return it and buy me the $180,000 Bayliner or everyone there would think he was a cheap old man especially since he only got me the lotus instead of the lambo....

See I can jump into a thread a post a asinine comment also that has no relation to the OP..... Hi Welcome ( waits for the pee pee smack by the mods, but soooo worth it

)

**tneva82**

Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:

How is this any different from buying a plastic toy G.I. Joe tank at ToysRUs for $30? Or any sized action figure for $15 compared to a $90 Wraithlord? Companies like Matel and Hasbro sell toys around those price ranges and they seem to be holding pretty well.

At the end of the day, it's all just an overpriced miniatures hobby with breakable plastic held together by crazy glue. (Great fluff though, it's up there with J.R.R Tolkien)

If my argument is flawed on how GW is practically keeping newcomers out with their expensive hobby, please point me out on details I got and enlighten me.

While I agree that price is too high few counter things to consider:

a) are the matel and hasbro kits as detailed? Design costs as well
b) until GW can sell in quantities matel and hasbro sells they cannot sell for same price. The more you sell the cheaper you can sell. If they would cut the prices to same level now do you think they would instantly sell equally many? This is niche hobby which doesn't have equally wide potential as matel and hasbro has...Ergo it can never compete with price with them.

Price is too high yes but expecting them to sell for same price as matel and hasbro is deluding yourself. Business realities kicks in. It costs them more than matel/hasbro(economics of scale) so they need to price them higher up.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

adamsouza wrote:
GW models aren't priced "pay to win" or "pay more to balance the game" they are priced around expected sales upon release verses the cost of the production (molds/packaing/shipping/storage).

Clampacked generals for $30 aren't priced that way because they are soo bad ass they need to priced $30 to keep you from buying many of them, they are priced that way because it's expected you'll only buy 1, or 2, for your army. The cost of production has to be spread out through a significantly smaller amount of sales to recoup the investment.

The fact that's it's $.15 a model worth of plastic means little. It's the $10,000 for the steel mold that matters.

A Tactical Squad from a $50,000 mold will outsell a clampack HQ 10 to 1, bringing the price per model significantly down, even though it cost significantly more to produce to mold.

This too.

The "plastic for everything" decision was deathblow for reasonable priced characters. Right material for the right job. GW forgot that rule.

**Dakka Wolf**

Don Savik wrote:
A plastic toy that you can buy at toys R us is not even close to the same quality and durability as a GW plastic kit. Same with action figures/wraithlord. Its different because one is supposed to withstand the brunt force of children playing while the other is supposed to be a modeling display piece that lasts forever (theoretically).

Yes I agree that Warhammer is expensive. Buuuuuut I don't believe that certain models have to be expensive to balance them. Both the Wraithknight and the Gorkanaut are like 110 dollars, so that point is moot. Your game store owner is dumb. Yes 5 models for 50 is silly but that's pretty much been their standard.

Get a start collecting box, or play their board games which come with miniatures, or play a small game of AoS. Its really about how much you want to invest. Did I put off buying Dark Souls 3 to buy Thunderwolf Cavalry? Yes, because I wanted it. If you can't keep up with multiple expensive things than don't. As much as I want cheaper models the reality is its not happening at the moment.

And MTG cheaper? hehhhehehheheh......that depends on if you want to lose or not. A typical modern deck runs from 200-500 dollars. And don't tell me about building a budget deck, because I have a budget legacy deck: still 135 dollars.

And here I always thought 'Budget Legacy Deck' was an oxymoron.
I'm in full agreement with you about Magic being expensive but I play modern and cough up maybe $500 a year on Magic cards, that's four pre-releases and a fat pack on order for each one. I trade and sell to get what I want and but still manage to have a fairly competitive self-designed burn deck, several variants on an Izzet land base, theft, human tribal and dragon tribal and a weird paradise variant. Each of these decks is carrying around $500 worth of cards but because there is a collecting, trading and purchasing culture in MTG I've never had to cough up money to get cards that I want but didn't draw and being a modern player rather than a standard player I can afford to be patient. 40k doesn't have that. There is no randomness to what you buy unless you trust GW there isn't really such a thing as 'rare' or 'limited' models *Cough Krom Dragongaze cough*, people getting out of the hobby seem to believe that their 2nd hand models are worth retail and the market is small because each army is a market in its own right. Magic is expensive but it's still so much easier to get into than 40k.

**Peregrine**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's the whole "it's my money and I don't care" mentality that enables GW's price gouging.

GW is not price gouging. Price gouging refers to taking advantage of temporary scarcity to significantly increase the price on a must-buy item. For example, selling bottled water at 10x the normal price after a natural disaster knocks out the water supply is price gouging. When there's no water available from any other source people have to pay whatever you demand because the alternative is death. It is NOT price gouging to sell an item at a higher cost than some of your customers want to pay for it, or to sell an item at a price that some people think is "unfair". And given the fact that GW sells toys, which are clearly luxury products and not an item you could ever be forced to buy regardless of the price, it is impossible for them to be guilty of price gouging.

**Xathrodox86**

Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:
[b][u] At the end of the day, it's all just an overpriced miniatures hobby with breakable plastic held together by crazy glue. (Great fluff though, it's up there with J.R.R Tolkien)

That perfectly sums it up. And we all love it and are willing to spend literally thousands of dollars on it, while also cursing the GW policies. That's what it means to be a fan, I guess.

**zerosignal**

MTG is incredibly expensive. I'd love to play Legacy, but with dual lands upwards of £250 (*each*)... not happening.

Even standard is expensive (I've just dropped ~£100 on singles and £150 on two boxes of the new set. These sets are released every 3-4 months. This might give me a base but it's unlikely to give me coverage for 2-3 decks).

Brexit didn't help... used to buy everything from the states via ebay, but with the pound shafted versus the dollar, even that's becoming pointless.

Back to 40K though: buy second hand on ebay. Strip and repaint. Convert or proxy. Build up an army slowly.

The constant whining on these forums is becoming offputting...

**hobojebus**

insaniak wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
f I can get a 2000 point army for even just 100 bucks, I'd get a lot more converts to this hobby.

You might also get more converts if you don't make them think they need a 2000point force in order to play.

$85 gets you a starter force. It's not huge, and it doesnt have all the fancy stuff... But it's enough to start playing the game.

Yeah but £25 gets you the x-wing starter, that's a much smaller risk your taking if you don't know if you'll even enjoy the game.

Recently I got into fow it cost me £63 for an American force plus £7 for the relevant book and I was ready to play.

If I wanted to try kow I could get a 70+ model army for £100.

GW's pricing is what's driving people away and keeping others from starting, it's not the only game in time anymore and frankly it's not even the best, you can't demand quality prices when your not delivering

**insaniak**

hobojebus wrote:

Yeah but £25 gets you the x-wing starter, that's a much smaller risk your taking if you don't know if you'll even enjoy the game.

It's a smaller risk if what you're looking for is a space fighter combat game. You're going to be somewhat disappointed with it if you wanted squad-based land warfare...

While I get that some people just like games, and don't much care what they're actually about, to a lot of players this matters. I've met quite a few gamers over the years, including myself, who stuck with 40k despite not being entirely happy with the prices of the minis and/or the state of the rules simply because, while there are indeed plenty of other games out there these days, there are none that are actually like 40K.

For gamers wanting a 28mm scifi skirmish game that scales up to large battles with warmachines and masses of infantry, pointing out that they can get a bunch of 10mm WWII minis for less cash isn't going to float a lot of beans.

**SolarCross**

hobojebus wrote:
insaniak wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
f I can get a 2000 point army for even just 100 bucks, I'd get a lot more converts to this hobby.

You might also get more converts if you don't make them think they need a 2000point force in order to play.

$85 gets you a starter force. It's not huge, and it doesnt have all the fancy stuff... But it's enough to start playing the game.

Yeah but £25 gets you the x-wing starter, that's a much smaller risk your taking if you don't know if you'll even enjoy the game.

Recently I got into fow it cost me £63 for an American force plus £7 for the relevant book and I was ready to play.

If I wanted to try kow I could get a 70+ model army for £100.

GW's pricing is what's driving people away and keeping others from starting, it's not the only game in time anymore and frankly it's not even the best, you can't demand quality prices when your not delivering

Well from a reseller you could get the Dark Vengence boxset for £50. That gives you all you need to play, including 2 different armies, 50 models. That doesn't seem to be a world apart from X-wing, FoW or KoW.

**treslibras**

insaniak wrote:
hobojebus wrote:

Yeah but £25 gets you the x-wing starter, that's a much smaller risk your taking if you don't know if you'll even enjoy the game.

It's a smaller risk if what you're looking for is a space fighter combat game. You're going to be somewhat disappointed with it if you wanted squad-based land warfare...

Yes but for a lot of "noobs" or non-nerds, that is a non-existing distinction. Most non-nerds (i.e. people who are not already heavily invested - fluff-wise or financially) will know the mainstream geek tropes, like Star Wars or Star Trek, but nothing else.

If those people would like to start playing a miniature game, then in 7 of 10 cases they do it because one of their friends is already invested or because they like the looks of particular miniatures / set ups. Some more will come to WHFB/WH40K because of the video games.

And for all those, the price is a killer argument, especially when a fallback to something cheap and instantly recognizable, such as X-Wing/Star Wars or historicals, is possible.
Worst case, they turn away from tabletop games for good.

**Zimko**

The pricing on models can be debated, but does anyone think that the price of the rules and codices is at all reasonable? Models can at least be used every edition of the game... but the rules expire. It wasn't so bad when each codex was $20 USD but now it's $60+?

I don't play that often, but when I come back to the game after a long break, I have to spend $150 just for the rules for my army and the game in order to be 'current'. Nevermind new wargear or models.

At least with magic you can play a draft tournament for $20 and still end the day with some new cards. Buying a new set of rules doesn't give me any new value to my collection since those rules will expire in 1 to 2 years. It's just an entry fee.

**SolarCross**

Zimko wrote:
The pricing on models can be debated, but does anyone think that the price of the rules and codices is at all reasonable? Models can at least be used every edition of the game... but the rules expire. It wasn't so bad when each codex was $20 USD but now it's $60+?

I don't play that often, but when I come back to the game after a long break, I have to spend $150 just for the rules for my army and the game in order to be 'current'. Nevermind new wargear or models.

At least with magic you can play a draft tournament for $20 and still end the day with some new cards. Buying a new set of rules doesn't give me any new value to my collection since those rules will expire in 1 to 2 years. It's just an entry fee.

It could be that 40k is becoming more or less finalised and so rules & codices will not be made obsolete so much as supplemented. You can see this with how the Tau codex released after 7th did not invalidate the Tau codex released in 6th. The 6th ed Tau book remains a current rules legal book. I'm guessing that the switch from cheap but flimsy softbacks to more expensive long lasting hardbacks is more or less justified by this new approach.

This is speculation but I would hazard a guess that if and when 8th ed hits, it will just be 7th ed rules, + errata + FAQs + some supplementary material and it won't invalidate at all your 7th ed book or mean you have to buy it to stay current.

**Oggthrok**

BrianDavion wrote:
regarding 40k pricing it's worth noting that their minis aren't nesscarily HORRIFICLY priced, slightly more expensive sure but also better quality in most cases. the problem is that you also need so many minis to play the game. compare 40k to X-wing. an X-wing mini is actually not a great deal on a "mini to mini" cost (each x-wing mini is 15 bucks) BUT, with X-wing games only being about 100 points, the largest army you're looking at is maybe 10 models. meanwhile for 40k 10 models is your starting point.

that's 40ks biggest problem, scale. and honestly we're just as much the problem as GW. if people regularly played smaller games, maybe 750 points, it would reduce the cost of entry to new players. granted GW does enchourage the larger scale stuff, so it's hardly JUST OUR FAULT. but.. the scale of game play, is certainly a big contributing factor

I have to agree with every word you wrote, and say that this is largely why I have been buying and playing much more X-wing than 40k this year.

If I drop $20 on something like a TIE Punisher, I get just one lousy model, and the sculpting is not as crisp or perfect as a GW model. But, it's pretty good, and more importantly, when I put it on the table it will be a large, important model that completely changes the way my "army" plays. And, it came with its own rules, so I can mod it out and send it out with different pilots to suit my plans. And, I can play it the day I bought it.

In contrast, if I buy a $50 Leman Russ I get a much larger, high quality model. And the first thing I think, after building it for a month, is that it's of little use without two more to fill out a squadron, or at least one to make an HQ unit, and it needs six or seven boxes of guard to go with it to make an army...

So, 40k is a grander, more amazing game when done up right. But, in terms of recruiting friends and actually playing games, its a heap easier to say "You need between two to five of these relatively cheap blister packs, and we can play this afternoon."