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This is a simple one. Do you think Grav guns in its current form will survive the 8th edition ( whenever it comes out)

Genie's out of the bottle.

I can't imagine GW doing a serious shake-up of recosting and re-sizing the scale of the game, so I'd bet grav stays in as some sort of 'attempt' to balance out the ever growing number of big gribblies.

If anything, I'd wager more armies get access to a similar mechanic.

I would like a big shake up, but i don't see it happen. So grav will stay nearly like it is. All they are gonna do, will be advancing the plot, do daemon primarchs and other big stuff no one can afford (but everyone will buy!) and that's it.

As much as people hate grav, I actually think the concept behind it is kind of cool. I've been on the receiving end of Grav spam while playing everything from Nids to KDK to IF. I think it's one of the few things that keeps MCs in check. I would however, like Grav ability to damage vehicles beyond a single immobilized result and a HP neutered. Coming from someone who plays with grav, and against spammed grav, I personally think people are making a mountain out of a molehill. IMO Grav is pretty far down the list of in-game mechanics that need tweaking.

Grav is what Space Marines get instead of Strength D weaponry. Grav is our answer to big things like Wraithknights, Riptides, and Stormsurges. It has to stay.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Grav is what Space Marines get instead of Strength D weaponry. Grav is our answer to big things like Wraithknights, Riptides, and Stormsurges. It has to stay.

Cans my Guard trade our D for your Grav?

No, I do not think that grav will change. As others have said GW is far to busy pushing the plot at us and introducing new things. Also, as much as I hate to say this, Grav is needed. It is the one thing that holds MC's and GMC's in check. Without it they would have free reign on the board.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Grav is what Space Marines get instead of Strength D weaponry. Grav is our answer to big things like Wraithknights, Riptides, and Stormsurges. It has to stay.

Cans my Guard trade our D for your Grav?

Probably not. But you should have been able to use D more effectively. And my Grav doesn't do squat against Necrons, whereas your D does.

Maybe they change the point costs or the grav amp, but other than that I don' think they'll change a lot about grav weapons. Still surprised the Wolves didn't get them.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Maybe they change the point costs or the grav amp, but other than that I don' think they'll change a lot about grav weapons. Still surprised the Wolves didn't get them.

It is already 35 pts! A unit of Grav Devastators is approaching the price of a Riptide and not nearly as mobile or effective.

 Blacksails wrote:
Genie's out of the bottle.

I can't imagine GW doing a serious shake-up of recosting and re-sizing the scale of the game, so I'd bet grav stays in as some sort of 'attempt' to balance out the ever growing number of big gribblies.

If anything, I'd wager more armies get access to a similar mechanic.

Except Chaos. because Chaos can't innovate.

 Selym wrote:
Except Chaos. because Chaos can't innovate.

Well, of course. Such an obvious exception should hardly need to be stated. What would 40k be if Chaos was actually good? There'd be mayhem, and...errr...chaos?

 Selym wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Genie's out of the bottle.

I can't imagine GW doing a serious shake-up of recosting and re-sizing the scale of the game, so I'd bet grav stays in as some sort of 'attempt' to balance out the ever growing number of big gribblies.

If anything, I'd wager more armies get access to a similar mechanic.

Except Chaos. because Chaos can't innovate.

Which is kind of stupid, since HH Chaos has Grav weaponry. Hopefully when Chaos gets an overhaul(allegedly happening soon), they will get Grav weapons.

Grav isn't needed at all. Its bringing a Kill all gun in a rock paper scissors fight. SM need some anti monster gun they don't need a high rate of fire anti-TEQ-MEQ-Vehicle-monster gun.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Grav isn't needed at all. Its bringing a Kill all gun in a rock paper scissors fight. SM need some anti monster gun they don't need a high rate of fire anti-TEQ-MEQ-Vehicle-monster gun.

D-Weapons. The game will not be balanced until everyone has D. Much better than Grav.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Grav isn't needed at all. Its bringing a Kill all gun in a rock paper scissors fight. SM need some anti monster gun they don't need a high rate of fire anti-TEQ-MEQ-Vehicle-monster gun.

That is neither here nor there. As of right now, it is what we've got to deal with MCs/GCs. They could maybe dial back its vehicle hunting ability, but they definitely need to leave the rest as is.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Grav isn't needed at all. Its bringing a Kill all gun in a rock paper scissors fight. SM need some anti monster gun they don't need a high rate of fire anti-TEQ-MEQ-Vehicle-monster gun.

That is neither here nor there. As of right now, it is what we've got to deal with MCs/GCs. They could maybe dial back its vehicle hunting ability, but they definitely need to leave the rest as is.

The problem is that MC's and GMC's are designed in suh a way that anything that can kill them also has the firepower to kill everything else.

Methods boil down to this:

1) Shot spam. Bring as much dakka as possible, hope for a wound. Also great against light infantry and TEQ.

2) High Strength, Low Ap spam. Also great against MEQ and vehicles.

3) Grav. Good against literally everything with better than a 5+ save.

4) Tar pitting. Also works against anything of significant value.

5) Ignore it. Problem unresolved.

6) Multi-wound per hit (such as D). Obvious consequences.

Designing anti monster weapons is childish simple.

Just give it some ability to cause multiple wounds per unsaved wound that don't carry on other models and you are done. It has worked in WFB for ages I see no reason at all why it would not work in 40k as well.

Here is an example the "monster be gone 9000 rifle"
Heavy 1 36" S1 AP2 Fleshbane, Toxic*
Toxic : Unsaved wounds will result in 3 wounds who can't carry on to other models.

Or you could make it even simpler by simply naming the rule Monsterbane and choose to let it work only on monsters.
Monsterbane: Unsaved wounds will result in 3 wounds that can only be allocated to monsters or gargantuan monstrous creatures.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
And my Grav doesn't do squat against Necrons, whereas your D does.

Yes it does. Grav hurts literally everything. The only thing Grav doesn't hurt are the targets that Bolters can easily hurt.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
And my Grav doesn't do squat against Necrons, whereas your D does.

Yes it does. Grav hurts literally everything. The only thing Grav doesn't hurt are the targets that Bolters can easily hurt.

Bolters can hurt 20 man units of Warriors with 2-4up saves piece? They can hurt lychguard and Wraiths with a 3 up 4 up? Absolute news to me. The only necron units I can think of off the top of my head that it's actually scary against are destroyers and Immortals. Even then it only takes them down to a single save... kind of like almost every other unit in the game. Grav against necrons is a terrible investment.

Most people in favor of grav seem to say that it's required to "keep MCs in check".
To me it's a sign of a flawed system: MCs have been made too powerful by the rule system, so in order to balance it, they had to introduce a very powerful weapon as a quick fix. But this introduces new imbalances (for the other factions that now get slaughtered by it, while not having a decent way to deal with MCs on their own).

That's why I think the best way forward would be a huge overhaul of the rules: if you nerf grav, you also need to nerf MCs/GMCs, and then need to adjust many other things as a consequence and so on. However, I'm not convinced that we're going to see this in the near future. The more I hear about 8th edition, the more I'm convinced that "streamlining" mostly refers to rules being centralized in way fewer books, and maybe in an app (à la AoS).

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
And my Grav doesn't do squat against Necrons, whereas your D does.

Yes it does. Grav hurts literally everything. The only thing Grav doesn't hurt are the targets that Bolters can easily hurt.

Bolters can hurt 20 man units of Warriors with 2-4up saves piece? They can hurt lychguard and Wraiths with a 3 up 4 up? Absolute news to me. The only necron units I can think of off the top of my head that it's actually scary against are destroyers and Immortals. Even then it only takes them down to a single save... kind of like almost every other unit in the game. Grav against necrons is a terrible investment.

Destroyers, Immortals, Deathmarks, Praetorians, non-shield Lychguard, Spyders, Any of their vehicles, and the fact that they bring warriors down to a single save means that they'll start dropping pretty fast. Sure, it's not the best choice of weapon against Necrons, but that goes for anything except D-weapons. Grav is still valid.

I didn't say it was invalid. Just not worth 35 points per model and how often do you see deathmarks? Beating necrons through attrition is a ill advised and difficult for pretty much everyone but eldar.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I didn't say it was invalid. Just not worth 35 points per model and how often do you see deathmarks? Beating necrons through atricion is a ill advised and difficult for pretty much everyone but eldar.

Then how else do you intend to beat them? Attrition is main way I've lost units, short of D-weapons or Sweeping advances.

No, "Grav Guns" are not going anywhere, but we could see them seriously revised.

The primary idea of Grav is cool. "Anti-Big Stuff, Poor Little-Stuff". Done better, Grav would be just as interesting as the choice between Plasma, Melta, or Flamer - my personal favourite choice in the game. But currently it's simply better than all of them, so why not except for points?

I think Grav should wound based on actual size category though, not based on armour save.

Infantry 6+
Bulky 5+
Very Bulky 4+
Monstrous 3+
Gargantuan 2+

This let's them be better than Melta or Plasma when targeting things like Monstrous Creatures, but poor against basic infantry. Slightly better against Terminators than against basic Infantry, but worse than Plasma at that job.

If Vehicles get changed to Toughness values with saves, Vehicles get wounded like Monstrous, and Super-Heavies like Gargantuan, with Open-Topped Vehicles getting a -1 to the roll.

If Vehicles don't get changed from currently, Grav should just inflict a Crew Stunned result instead, immobilizing them for a single turn, but also causing them to Snap Shoot for the turn too.

I've been beating then via objectives by a landslide when I play them with any of my armies but nids. I guess if you only play KPs then if the SM player runs grav he better hope the crons run either vehicle heavy or hope to see the aforementioned units on the field in larger than average numbers. I mean when I run marines I usually find a way to tarpit the Wraiths and crush everyone else in CC (absent sword and board lychguard) if I'm running marines in a Kill Point game against crons. Might take grav on a unit of bikes or two, but that's 6 shots of Grav inside the crons threat range per turn. 9 shots twice per game. Definitely not spamming it and definitely not paying for cannons either.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Grav is what Space Marines get instead of Strength D weaponry. Grav is our answer to big things like Wraithknights, Riptides, and Stormsurges. It has to stay.

Cans my Guard trade our D for your Grav?

Probably not. But you should have been able to use D more effectively. And my Grav doesn't do squat against Necrons, whereas your D does.

'D' would be a lot more effective if there was not a 1 in 6 chance for anything under it to be fine. Dropping the 'D' plate on a unit of Sisters or Marines should be utterly devastating, but a bad role can lead to several surviving. Likewise, a hit to a tank should annihilate it, but unless you get a '6' on the damage roll your chances of killing it are reduced to 1 in 3 (or none if it is a HP 4 vehicle).
Now if 'D' was like it used to be - IE automatically killed any none SH or GMC beneath it, and dealing multiple wounds/hits to SH and GMC's it would be worth it. Liewise, if wounds spilled over it might feel a little more devastating.

Better idea, on how to shake things up.

Remove all D weapons form non apoc games

Honestly im of the mind set still that super heavy walkers, and super heavy tanks in non apoc games are a dumb idea, because then you get what we have now.

Wraith knight, riptide, and D weapon tom gakery

The fact i can field titans now in standard non apoc game seems....wrong.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I didn't say it was invalid. Just not worth 35 points per model and how often do you see deathmarks? Beating necrons through atricion is a ill advised and difficult for pretty much everyone but eldar.

Then how else do you intend to beat them? Attrition is main way I've lost units, short of D-weapons or Sweeping advances.

I intend to lose vs Necrons, as GW intended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Grav is what Space Marines get instead of Strength D weaponry. Grav is our answer to big things like Wraithknights, Riptides, and Stormsurges. It has to stay.

Cans my Guard trade our D for your Grav?

Probably not. But you should have been able to use D more effectively. And my Grav doesn't do squat against Necrons, whereas your D does.

'D' would be a lot more effective if there was not a 1 in 6 chance for anything under it to be fine. Dropping the 'D' plate on a unit of Sisters or Marines should be utterly devastating, but a bad role can lead to several surviving. Likewise, a hit to a tank should annihilate it, but unless you get a '6' on the damage roll your chances of killing it are reduced to 1 in 3 (or none if it is a HP 4 vehicle).
Now if 'D' was like it used to be - IE automatically killed any none SH or GMC beneath it, and dealing multiple wounds/hits to SH and GMC's it would be worth it. Liewise, if wounds spilled over it might feel a little more devastating.

D weapons are plenty devastating as is. No need to make them any better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fresus wrote:
Most people in favor of grav seem to say that it's required to "keep MCs in check".
To me it's a sign of a flawed system: MCs have been made too powerful by the rule system, so in order to balance it, they had to introduce a very powerful weapon as a quick fix. But this introduces new imbalances (for the other factions that now get slaughtered by it, while not having a decent way to deal with MCs on their own).

That's why I think the best way forward would be a huge overhaul of the rules: if you nerf grav, you also need to nerf MCs/GMCs, and then need to adjust many other things as a consequence and so on. However, I'm not convinced that we're going to see this in the near future. The more I hear about 8th edition, the more I'm convinced that "streamlining" mostly refers to rules being centralized in way fewer books, and maybe in an app (à la AoS).

It also doesn't do much to keep daemon MCs in check at all. It's basically a hail mary vs Riptide and WK. Because Riptides survive the grav barrage more often than not.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I didn't say it was invalid. Just not worth 35 points per model and how often do you see deathmarks? Beating necrons through atricion is a ill advised and difficult for pretty much everyone but eldar.

Then how else do you intend to beat them? Attrition is main way I've lost units, short of D-weapons or Sweeping advances.

I intend to lose vs Necrons, as GW intended.

Or you could play objectives and whoop their ass.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I didn't say it was invalid. Just not worth 35 points per model and how often do you see deathmarks? Beating necrons through atricion is a ill advised and difficult for pretty much everyone but eldar.

Then how else do you intend to beat them? Attrition is main way I've lost units, short of D-weapons or Sweeping advances.

I intend to lose vs Necrons, as GW intended.

Or you could play objectives and whoop their ass.

Heh. Sure, sure.