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It's not just the stupidly OP MC/GCs. It's all MCs worth their points that SM have trouble with if they don't have access to grav. I mean if it's a ranged SM army. I can go psykers /CC heavy and drop MCs, but that isn't very characteristic of IF or any shoot marines. You run GK? Ally in a detatchment of IG. Tarpit the cents and try to stay in cover (from bikes) until you can assault them. Or ally in Admech and laugh as your grav out-Gravs SM grav or wound spam the units to death with castellans. Or use your psychic advantage and shriek the scary units to death and buff your invulns.

I agree with you on the cost of Grav for bikes. It could use a 5 or 10 points increase per grav gun. Right now with them being the same price as plasma guns they are pretty much an auto include

 Quickjager wrote:
I love all this advice as a GK player, apparently I just need to get good with my army. I had no idea.

Grav is broken because it 1 gun will ALWAYS get its points back. Grav just needs to have -1 shot on every current iteration AND pay for grav amps separately on Centurions. Bikes need to have a points increase for grav.

If you have to quote a universally acclaimed OP unit as why grav needs to exist you're an idiot. That unit just needs to be rebalanced itself.

Yes My advice to you as a Greyknight player is to play a different army. Thatbis what I did as I started as a Greyknight player. Greyknights are not a stand alone army - they are an allied force at best in this edition. Being an army that is composed mostly of 2+ saves I understand your frustration with grav. To be quite honest though - you should be using grav yourself in the form of cent stars - you do it better than a marine army can.

Lol its the gravway or the highway
And termies are just acceptable collateral damage apparently : P

 oldzoggy wrote:
Lol its the gravway or the highway
And termies are just acceptable collateral damage apparently : P

And anything else with good armour. But SM's are happy at least.

 Quickjager wrote:
I love all this advice as a GK player, apparently I just need to get good with my army. I had no idea.

Grav is broken because it 1 gun will ALWAYS get its points back. Grav just needs to have -1 shot on every current iteration AND pay for grav amps separately on Centurions. Bikes need to have a points increase for grav.

If you have to quote a universally acclaimed OP unit as why grav needs to exist you're an idiot. That unit just needs to be rebalanced itself.

Then shave two wounds off your broken Dreadknight.

For 8th edition I would like to see 40k divided into the standard game and apoc level game - rules of which can be in the same book. Then things like D weapons and GMC and super heavies can be moved to apoc rules and grav weapons as well. Of course serious effort will need to be applied to balancing the game so that all armies can compete at each level. It would also mean that in standard 40K it would be easier to balance things so that basic units such as troops can be decent units to take.

I picture an old man in a chair telling tales when that was how things worked.

They need to shake up the rules. If they don't people won't buy any new models for their armies because their armies will already be perfect. People who don't buy models aren't making GW any money. Hard for me to talk though as I have at least 3 of all the units in my book except for 2. So unless they make howling banshees and shining spears amazing I won't need to buy anything for my Eldar regardless of how they change up the meta.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I love all this advice as a GK player, apparently I just need to get good with my army. I had no idea.

Grav is broken because it 1 gun will ALWAYS get its points back. Grav just needs to have -1 shot on every current iteration AND pay for grav amps separately on Centurions. Bikes need to have a points increase for grav.

If you have to quote a universally acclaimed OP unit as why grav needs to exist you're an idiot. That unit just needs to be rebalanced itself.

Yes My advice to you as a Greyknight player is to play a different army. Thatbis what I did as I started as a Greyknight player. Greyknights are not a stand alone army - they are an allied force at best in this edition. Being an army that is composed mostly of 2+ saves I understand your frustration with grav. To be quite honest though - you should be using grav yourself in the form of cent stars - you do it better than a marine army can.

With some armies, this might be structurally true (e.g. Inquisition), but when the suggestions for playability for armies that really were designed as complete and whole armies is to play something else, at least in part, the game has broken and is in need of repair.

 Xerics wrote:
They need to shake up the rules. If they don't people won't buy any new models for their armies because their armies will already be perfect. People who don't buy models aren't making GW any money. Hard for me to talk though as I have at least 3 of all the units in my book except for 2. So unless they make howling banshees and shining spears amazing I won't need to buy anything for my Eldar regardless of how they change up the meta.

Here's the problem, at least from my perspective. Since they started dramatically ramping up absurd power levels, my purchasing has inversely dropped. I bought lots of stuff when I thought I could try out lots of different background concepts and force compositions and figured I could at least stand a chance with any of them in most situations, but now that it's just an arms race to pack in the biggest gun and who can field the most absurdly powerful stuff, I have zero desire to play that game and my purchasing has likewise dropped to zero.

Although if the rules shake up reduced the power levels wouldn't that increase your buying again?

pm713 wrote:
Although if the rules shake up reduced the power levels wouldn't that increase your buying again?

Sure, but not really for the same reasons, as the expected future would be far more stable. If pretty much everything was good and it just stayed *relatively* static, I'd probably buy tons more stuff to play around with. The constant flux and dramatic power swings and insane overpowering, coupled with the expectation that that'll be the norm for the foreseeable future, is what kills the desire to invest in more models. There's ways to get people with large collections to buy more stuff that doesn't involve directly mucking with unit power level. Introduce alternate army lists (e.g. Krieg Siege Regiment vs Codex Imperial Guard), campaign & mission rules which organically promote different unit types, and simply ensuring that all units are viable to encourage experimentation.

 Quickjager wrote:
I love all this advice as a GK player, apparently I just need to get good with my army. I had no idea.

Grav is broken because it 1 gun will ALWAYS get its points back. Grav just needs to have -1 shot on every current iteration AND pay for grav amps separately on Centurions. Bikes need to have a points increase for grav.

If you have to quote a universally acclaimed OP unit as why grav needs to exist you're an idiot. That unit just needs to be rebalanced itself.

Terminators die easily to other weapons anyway. Grav isn't special here. Terminators need a fix to their offensive capabilities anyway to have anyone take them. Grey Knights have what is almost the perfect Terminator, but it isn't enough.

Orks laugh at your grav guns !!!

I don't see them going anywhere in 8th.

We got Grav and Conversion beamers back from their hiatis. They'll likely ressurect some other 2nd edition weapon that got forgotten about in later editions.

Didn't Termagants have a web gun of some sort ?

I'm pretty sure they still have it. It's just terrible.

 adamsouza wrote:
Orks laugh at your grav guns !!!

Do they ? My MANZ, Transports and MEGA warbozzes are not a fan. My grots on the other hand are all for it.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Orks laugh at your grav guns !!!

Do they ? My MANZ, Transports and MEGA warbozzes are not a fan. My grots on the other hand are all for it.

Your Manz, Transports, and Mega Warbozzes die to Plasma, Melta, and Lascannons, as well, which is what they'd be using if they didn't have Grav.

Your Boyz and Grotz bubble wrap on the other hand prefers the warm shower that Grav Guns deliver to them,

 adamsouza wrote:
[
Your Manz, Transports, and Mega Warbozzes die to Plasma, Melta, and Lascannons, as well, which is what they'd be using if they didn't have Grav.

No they don't and this is the real issue with grav. Grav is hyper efficient in killing TEQ on top of being good at monsters and vehicles. A melta or a lascannon will only kill 1 TEQ max while a grav amp cannon will do 5 wounds max with a single cannon.

Your Boyz and Grotz bubble wrap on the other hand prefers the warm shower that Grav Guns deliver to them,

No they don't at all. Boyz and Grots aren't viable as a bubble wrap at all for MANZ in this meta of high rate of fire and the limited amount of time your boyz and MANZ are allowed to be in the open. And it doesn't even protect them vs grav it just gives them a 5+ cover save thats all those cannons are still opeing fire right trough those grots. Bubble wrapping is vs assault or short range Melta tricks not mid range grav.

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I love all this advice as a GK player, apparently I just need to get good with my army. I had no idea.

Grav is broken because it 1 gun will ALWAYS get its points back. Grav just needs to have -1 shot on every current iteration AND pay for grav amps separately on Centurions. Bikes need to have a points increase for grav.

If you have to quote a universally acclaimed OP unit as why grav needs to exist you're an idiot. That unit just needs to be rebalanced itself.

Then shave two wounds off your broken Dreadknight.

How many wounds do you think a Dreadknight has? 6?

 Quickjager wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I love all this advice as a GK player, apparently I just need to get good with my army. I had no idea.

Grav is broken because it 1 gun will ALWAYS get its points back. Grav just needs to have -1 shot on every current iteration AND pay for grav amps separately on Centurions. Bikes need to have a points increase for grav.

If you have to quote a universally acclaimed OP unit as why grav needs to exist you're an idiot. That unit just needs to be rebalanced itself.

Then shave two wounds off your broken Dreadknight.

How many wounds do you think a Dreadknight has? 6?

How many does it have?

pm713 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I love all this advice as a GK player, apparently I just need to get good with my army. I had no idea.

Grav is broken because it 1 gun will ALWAYS get its points back. Grav just needs to have -1 shot on every current iteration AND pay for grav amps separately on Centurions. Bikes need to have a points increase for grav.

If you have to quote a universally acclaimed OP unit as why grav needs to exist you're an idiot. That unit just needs to be rebalanced itself.

Then shave two wounds off your broken Dreadknight.

How many wounds do you think a Dreadknight has? 6?

How many does it have?

4. With T7 and 4++

 Selym wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I love all this advice as a GK player, apparently I just need to get good with my army. I had no idea.

Grav is broken because it 1 gun will ALWAYS get its points back. Grav just needs to have -1 shot on every current iteration AND pay for grav amps separately on Centurions. Bikes need to have a points increase for grav.

If you have to quote a universally acclaimed OP unit as why grav needs to exist you're an idiot. That unit just needs to be rebalanced itself.

Then shave two wounds off your broken Dreadknight.

How many wounds do you think a Dreadknight has? 6?

How many does it have?

4. With T7 and 4++

Take one off it.

No its T6 with a 5++, then a 4++ if you get sanctuary off.

Where the hell did you get T7?

Googling. Three pages on dakka said T7.

His opponents dread knights look might look like this, and could be fan of forging the "rule of common sense" ; )

 Quickjager wrote:
No its T6 with a 5++, then a 4++ if you get sanctuary off.

Where the hell did you get T7?

The original leak for the 5E 5010 GK codex had those stats, it was an early production draft that leaked a month or two before the codex came out with the toned down revised stats.

 oldzoggy wrote:
His opponents dread knights look might look like this, and could be fan of forging the "rule of common sense" ; )

Yanno, I have never seen a Dreadknight irl.

 Yarium wrote:
No, "Grav Guns" are not going anywhere, but we could see them seriously revised.

The primary idea of Grav is cool. "Anti-Big Stuff, Poor Little-Stuff". Done better, Grav would be just as interesting as the choice between Plasma, Melta, or Flamer - my personal favourite choice in the game. But currently it's simply better than all of them, so why not except for points?

I think Grav should wound based on actual size category though, not based on armour save.

Infantry 6+
Bulky 5+
Very Bulky 4+
Monstrous 3+
Gargantuan 2+

This let's them be better than Melta or Plasma when targeting things like Monstrous Creatures, but poor against basic infantry. Slightly better against Terminators than against basic Infantry, but worse than Plasma at that job.

While I know this is from the front page, I had to exalt it and say I think this would be just about the perfect solution. It keeps in line with what gravs were in theory supposed to do without the extra collateral damage.

Without this change my best suggestion would be to make them AP4 or 5, they'd need a large point drop with that to compensate though.

AP4 or AP5 would kill the gun, it needs to keep AP2 but the volume of shots it has is ridiculous.

I have toyed with alternatives besides the one above. With GW pushing 32mm bases for SM it opened up a new idea of wounding based off of base size.

Wounding based off toughness was another idea, but that is just wonky. Why should a Nurgle unit take more wounds?

It all came down to me just wishing cover worked like it should, as a stacking save or as a BS modifier.

 oldzoggy wrote:
This is a simple one. Do you think Grav guns in its current form will survive the 8th edition ( whenever it comes out)

I hope not, Spammable AP2 is getting ridiculous.

I think based off size it could work, but you people are trying to kill it with your suggestions.

Swarms are wounded on 6+
Infantry 5+
Bulky 4+
Very Bulky 3+
Everything else 2+
6's strip a HP off a vehicle but don't immobilize it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldzoggy wrote:
His opponents dread knights look might look like this, and could be fan of forging the "rule of common sense" ; )

People can hate on the concept of allies all they want, but we can get some pretty fething fantastic pieces like this.