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I'm reading through this stuff and I can barely comprehend it anymore. It's been so long since I played that all but the visual memories and the good times with my buddies have faded away.
A lot of the unit names are fun to look up on the wiki, though!

But either way, if the guy is gonna crap'n'moan about this and that being OP, but refuses to even back it up by using the units himself (Especially if he doesn't have to go out and buy them himself because someone offers to let him use theirs) to prove the point, I'd dismiss his arguments for lack of substantiation and move on.

I mean, if you make a claim, you have to back it up. Hypothetical griping is one thing, demonstration is another.

 Selym wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
These sound like typical marine complaints and I understand them. Space marines are actually not a very good army. The majority of their units are pitifully bad.

They can make mega deathstars and have a good horde formation - nothing more. Space wolves are a different story because they have thunder-wolves - still though - we are talking about death-stars.

Just take a space marine CAD and see how you do against an IG gun line...You will get smoked every time. I know because it's happend to me dozens of times.

This is a guy who still uses 5E rhino rush.

With Grav, Sternguard and lots of long range weapons, but still a methul bawks army.

And IG is terrible at handling it.

Has he tried Battle Company yet?

But echoing several posters, he sounds... lacking in critical thinking skills.

 Selym wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
IG are not terrible at stoping rhino rush or killing sterngard marines with grav guns.

IG really aren't bad against any form of space marines.

Are you sure you've played against IG?

Yes - what units in particular are beating your IG? What units do you typically field?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
IG are not terrible at stoping rhino rush or killing sterngard marines with grav guns.

IG really aren't bad against any form of space marines.

Are you sure you've played against IG?

Yes - what units in particular are beating your IG? What units do you typically field?

None, haven't used them in over a year and a half. And I've done this kind of thread so many times it's not even funny. Very long story made less long: I can't bring enough anti-armour without using allies, and that's bs. Typically get tabled by the end of T3 with IG.

How are marines tabling you with their first assault turn? Unless we are talking multiple skyhammers?

They aren't using T1 assault. Not even mentioned assaults. Or formations...

 Selym wrote:
They aren't using T1 assault. Not even mentioned assaults. Or formations...

Well I know they can't table you with shooting.

Apart from the bit where they have done, on many occasions. Also, not assaulting on T1 does not mean they never assaulted.

Lol.... If there is an army that can adapt to any enemy it is Space Marines... SM have a counter against EVERYTHING! I am playing SM for awhile now and even though i have lost a few times i have NEVER even once felt underpowerd :/ Well. Maybe a little against Eldar. Ffing Xenos scum XD This Dave is just a bad loser and a whiny *bleep*

Looks like a troll to me.

Only thing underpowered in 40k are eldar Jetbikes. 81p for 3 T4 with only +3 save.

jesper77 wrote:
Only thing underpowered in 40k are eldar Jetbikes. 81p for 3 T4 with only +3 save.

51 points for 3. And they have rediculous speed, unlimited access to scatterlasers, possible jink saves, and synergise very very well with Farseer Skyrunners, for psychic power sniping. A Farseer's power has limited range? Just jetbike to the other side of the field and cast there. Enemy trying to get slay the warlord? Run away.

 Selym wrote:

jesper77 wrote:
Only thing underpowered in 40k are eldar Jetbikes. 81p for 3 T4 with only +3 save.

51 points for 3. And they have rediculous speed, unlimited access to scatterlasers, possible jink saves, and synergise very very well with Farseer Skyrunners, for psychic power sniping. A Farseer's power has limited range? Just jetbike to the other side of the field and cast there. Enemy trying to get slay the warlord? Run away.

I honestly don't think that was a serious post.

Eh. Incensed by the +30 points estimate to Jetbikes.

Tell me, has he ever played the game? I mean, since when are CSM, imperial guardsmen OP? Since when are Tactical squads underpowered? No, really, you know what: he puts all what he's likely to have to deal with so that he makes himself look like the greatest genreal ever overcoming even the most OP things and in case he'd loose, that'd serv as a good aliby to justify it...

CSM can have T5 and ap3 but they have to pay so many points for it. Loyalist marines get so many free buffs like chapter tactics, atsknf, gladius free rhino etc...

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Tell me, has he ever played the game? I mean, since when are CSM, imperial guardsmen OP? Since when are Tactical squads underpowered? No, really, you know what: he puts all what he's likely to have to deal with so that he makes himself look like the greatest genreal ever overcoming even the most OP things and in case he'd loose, that'd serv as a good aliby to justify it...

He has played. A lot. A lot more than me.

 Xenomancers wrote:
IG are not terrible at stoping rhino rush or killing sterngard marines with grav guns.

IG really aren't bad against any form of space marines.

Please provide examples of IG units and builds that can actually handle Marines (AKA the faction that is second only to Eldar).

@Selym:

This Dave of yours sounds a lot like my Timmy (maybe ill go more into him later, lets see).
Timmy does not like to lose and will often complain bitterly about things being overpowered because they can kill Marines.
Timmy does not like an IG army that contains lots of Infantry and calls it cheesey spam and complains about the volume Lasgun shots and time taken per turn.
Timmy also hates IG armies with tanks in and calls six Leman Russ hulls "cheesey tank spam".
Timmy has a dislike for Baneblade hulls and feels they are overpowered.
Timmy cannot believe that Storm Troopers have AP 3 Lasguns.

I could go on, but does this sound familiar?

"Please provide examples of IG units and builds that can actually handle Marines "

Wyverns
Infantry squads buffed by divination
Vendetta w/special weapon teams
Mech vets
Forgeworld artillery

They work whether you think they do or not.

Martel732 wrote:
"Please provide examples of IG units and builds that can actually handle Marines "

Wyverns
Infantry squads buffed by divination
Vendetta w/special weapon teams
Mech vets
Forgeworld artillery

They work whether you think they do or not.

Can Vendetta's still carry infantry? I thought they stripped them out, or did they only half their transport capacity?

I'd say IG Veterans with Plasma guns are an auto take if you know you're going up against MEQs; special weapon teams not so much - they miss a lot more and can't take things like camo gear to protect themselves

Also depending on table size, a Basilisk can be a good idea, and LRBTs can smash Marines pretty reliably

Special weapon teams can have flamers too. Flamers kill meqs real good if spammed, since all templates fire at once and don't roll to hit. Flamers make DA especially sad pandas. And they make all marines sad if you cast misfortune on them first.

Vendettas carry six dudes to my knowledge.

And the direct counter to all of that is pretty much grav, or msu gladius, or super friends deathstar.

Martel, we're not talking about BA here...

 Wolfblade wrote:
And the direct counter to all of that is pretty much grav, or msu gladius, or super friends deathstar.

Martel, we're not talking about BA here...

I've seen IG tear the Gladius apart because the Gladius isn't throwing back enough bullets. Mass autocannons w/prescience and perfect timing rape Gladius. Autocannons open transport -> Wyverns delete contents. Over and over and over.

Everything loses to super friends death star except Eldar. Does that make IG bad? If so, then DA and Necrons are also bad.

Grav does NOT counter IG blobs rocking a 4++ save from divination. In fact, IG lists that don't bring Russ hulls counter grav.

Martel732 wrote:

Wyverns

Only really scary if Marines are bunched up. Being of a low AP, they rely upon forcing bazillions of saves to do anything

Infantry squads buffed by divination

Are still firing Lasguns. Lasguns, not Bolters. And Marines can get the exact same buff.

Vendetta w/special weapon teams

Vendatta's where nerfed heavily, but they can still be good. special Weapon teams though? Your wasting your points, not to mention the 135 point tax they are lumped with.

Mech vets

I agree here, provided the chimera does not get popped. Sadly the price of the chimera's, plus the stupidly weak side armour, make mech vets tough to build effectively.

Forgeworld artillery

Not really part of the IG codex, but from what I have heard it can be good.

They work whether you think they do or not.

Only one of those is really an answer Martel. I have no idea what meta you play in, but in mine all of those are dead very fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Special weapon teams can have flamers too. Flamers kill meqs real good if spammed

And I think here we have the crux of the issue.
Flamers.....

Grav murders tanks, flamers murder the infantry.

How many auto cannons do they have? I mean, sounds like a few combi flamers in a drop pod can take care of those fairly easy.

Or a cent star. Or a whirlwind squad of 3.

I don't think Ig are nearly as strong as you think.

"but in mine all of those are dead very fast."

I think you know what my meta is like.

I just think you are poor at playing IG, and won't give up your Russ hulls, which are major liabilities in 7th ed.

BA can't really run jump troops in 7th, IG can't use Russ hulls. It's the way of things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:
Grav murders tanks, flamers murder the infantry.

How many auto cannons do they have? I mean, sounds like a few combi flamers in a drop pod can take care of those fairly easy.

Or a cent star. Or a whirlwind squad of 3.

I don't think Ig are nearly as strong as you think.

It's the IG. They have a lot of everything. You can bring a LOT of stuff if you leave the Russ hulls at home.

" Being of a low AP, they rely upon forcing bazillions of saves to do anything "

That's the way the game rolls now. That's how all meqs die. AP is a novelty against meqs. You only need AP against MCs and select units.

A lot of stuff... which is T3 Sv5+ unless you pay out the nose for a T3 Sv5+ psyker and hope he rolls what you want.

 ManSandwich wrote:
I have come across many SM players who feel similar to Dave about Chaos Marines. In my experience it's the universal hatred that really twists their tits.

I swear I just posted in a thread with a story about an IG player gettng supremely pissed off that my carnifex was killing his IG squad in CC without any army saves.

Martel732 wrote:
"but in mine all of those are dead very fast."

I think you know what my meta is like.

I just think you are poor at playing IG, and won't give up your Russ hulls, which are major liabilities in 7th ed.

BA can't really run jump troops in 7th, IG can't use Russ hulls. It's the way of things.

Well, lets see:
Non-vet Infantry; overpriced and squishy
Elites slot; we have Elites?
Fast attack; can be okayish, but mostly garbage
Psykers; 15 points cheaper than a librarian, and with less than half the survivability and utility!
Commissars; you have better point sinks
Priests; melee, yes. Otherwise 50/50
chimeras; expensive and easy to kill with bolters
Taurox; XAXAXAXAXA, NO TRANSPORT FOR YOU GULAG
Artillery pieces; open topped chimeras. Pray for LOS blocking terrain or they are dead

What do we have?
Company Command Squads; A bit pricey, but workable
Tank Commanders; Can be worth it
Veterans; Not too bad, but sadly have to pay stupid points for their toys
Armoured Sentinels; use in lieu of HWS/HWT. Pricey, but can at least take hits
Vendetta's; Got nerfed heavily but still useful as it is a flyer
Leman Russ; Overpriced, yes. Still the mainstay of any Guard army though
Wyverns; murder light infantry or any infantry grouped up. Laughed at by tanks any infantry in transports.

It's the IG. They have a lot of everything. You can bring a LOT of stuff if you leave the Russ hulls at home.

And that 'lot of everything' is not really any good. As Selym said, to field meaningful numbers of anything you have to sacrifice your firepower. Now Marines, they have everything.

That's the way the game rolls now. That's how all meqs die. AP is a novelty against meqs. You only need AP against MCs and select units.

Lasguns. How many hundred shots are needed to kill three MEQ's?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I just think you are poor at playing IG

And I just think that you are poor at playing Codex SM.

"And I just think that you are poor at playing Codex SM."

You've complained about BA before. That tells me all I need to know.